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Old 08-01-2011   #121
Sergeant Brown
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I wasn't being blind to their arguments. I was simply countering them with facts (bar "that part").

Before I end this argumentation, because there was simply no point with the 2.1 Race levels that I now played through, I'd like to answer to these:

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Originally Posted by Kyasarin View Post
Whoever the most efficient and useful character is the one that is going to be used. It doesn't matter whether or not the character is genuinely liked or not, which makes your entire argument here irrelevant.
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If they're all the same, there's no reason in having different characters.
Hey, ever heard of the latest Mario Kart, Mario Kart Wii? I heard that there are 24 characters of the Mario saga plus your own Mii, and they all play the same!
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Old 08-01-2011   #122
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Originally Posted by Brown the dog View Post
Hey, ever heard of the latest Mario Kart, Mario Kart Wii? I heard that there are 24 characters of the Mario saga plus your own Mii, and they all play the same!
You couldn't be any more wrong, especially considering the fact that everyone hates Funky Kong and Daisy for being ridiculously overpowered and being the best characters in the game.
It's also completely irrelevant because it's a different game than what this "argumentation" is meant to be about.

You also said "yeah I'm done arguing" and then threw out your points (and continuing it), which is an annoying passive-aggressive style of arguing that makes you look afraid to stand your ground, if anything.
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Old 08-01-2011   #123
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Originally Posted by Brown the dog View Post
In Sonic 3's Multiplayer, despite the fact that both Sonic, Tails and Knuckles had the same attributes(not counting that Tails could fly since it was never useful anyway), the gamers could pick their favorite character out of the 3.
This is completely and utterly wrong. In fact, SRB2's character statistics are mostly based on the differences between the characters in Sonic 3's multiplayer. Sonic is faster than Knuckles, who is faster than Tails. Tails has the highest acceleration; Sonic has the worst. Also, Tails's flight is HIGHLY useful in that mode to players who make mistakes on Balloon Park and Chrome Gadget. I used Tails pretty much exclusively as a kid until I got much better at the mode because of that ability.

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I honestly think it's silly that Knuckles can't climb in multiplayer but can in single player.
Remember, in Sonic 3 alone, you couldn't play as Knuckles, so he didn't have those abilities yet. This always irked me as a child, though. You aren't alone.

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Well then, we're in agreement: Tails and Knuckles have no place in Race.
Yes, in general. On the other hand, they are pretty good in a few stages, even beating Sonic in a few single player stages, so why not keep them? If someone wants to play with a handicap, they're good for that, too.

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Hey, ever heard of the latest Mario Kart, Mario Kart Wii? I heard that there are 24 characters of the Mario saga plus your own Mii, and they all play the same!
Again, completely wrong. The characters are sorted into different weight groups and all have individual statistics based on their character and what car they end up using. Character choice makes quite a significant difference in Mario Kart and it always has.

The reality is that we here at Sonic Team Jr. consider characters to be statistics blocks and gameplay variations, while you consider them to be characters. We do not have characters in the game just to have different skins; we have differences in the characters so we can have major differences in the gameplay. Surely you've played enough SRB2 to notice how dramatically different single player feels as Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles. You'll also notice similar differences in match and CTF if you play those modes a lot.

When racing on the single player stages, Sonic is the risky but best choice, while Tails and Knuckles frequently are a much safer bet in dangerous areas like ERZ, but are slower. We don't really care much about the balance of characters in race mode, but if you want to use the other two, they're available choices should there happen to be some kind of gameplay benefit you can get out of them. Otherwise, choose Sonic. He's the fastest by design and we're not changing that.
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Old 08-01-2011   #124
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Actually, they play slightly different. (S,M,L) And IIRC, each character has their own stat boost.

The only way Race type would be balanced without any huge changes to the gametype is simply have levels where each character has their own advantages. Unfortunately, most levels seem to be built for Sonic which means the other characters are left out. I guess you'll just have to stick with Sonic. (Bind 1 Skin Sonic is a good thing to have when you play race!)
Edit: I should of refreshed the page. I didn't notice you guys posted. :x

Last edited by Autosaver; 08-01-2011 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 08-01-2011   #125
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Knuckles is officially the slowest character there, with Tails's strafe-fly ability, Tails has a big advantage against the other characters. That's because I think that the strafe-fly shouldn't be considered as a bug and be removed from SRB2 ( which I bet that STJr didn't removed it from 2.1). With certain ability with strafe-flying, it becomes a lot easier to be fast as Tails than as Sonic, but he continues being the fastest anyway. The problem now is with Knuckles, which doesn't have any special ability to become faster.

EDIT: Also, NATFZ is oficially a strafe-fly fest.
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Last edited by PHCC; 08-01-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 08-01-2011   #126
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Okay, I've seen a lot of people complaining about NATZ being silly and very hard at some points. I didn't want to say it at first, but then changed my mind. Here it is.

NOT A THOKFEST ZONE CAN BE EXPLOITED TO DEATH.

Now, this exploit isn't really for going fast, as it actually takes longer, but it helps desperate people who can't beat the level.

The exploit:

It's simple really. Use the spring you see in front of you and fall in the water BEHIND you. Keep doing this (hitting checkpoints whenever necessary) and you'll eventually complete a lap.

Now, this'll be pretty much useless in 2.1 considering there'll be endless lives and the water will (probably) become a death pit for that reason, but enjoy it while you can.
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Old 08-01-2011   #127
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I wish the dev's thought about creating the levels to give other character types advantages as well from the start. The only place see this done well in is Emerald Coast Zone (and it's just for Knuckles, Tails has much less of a chance of winning).
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Old 08-01-2011   #128
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Originally Posted by Iceman404 View Post
I wish the dev's thought about creating the levels to give other character types advantages as well from the start. The only place see this done well in is Emerald Coast Zone (and it's just for Knuckles, Tails has much less of a chance of winning).
Much easier said than done. There is a reason why no stage balances all characters perfectly: It's more or less impossible.
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Old 08-01-2011   #129
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Hang on, you're taking away Knuckles' ability to climb in Multiplayer? Speaking as someone who plays as Knuckles almost exclusively, I'm gonna have to cry foul on that one. Knuckles' reduced jump height is already a greater handicap in Multiplayer than his double fire rate, and in any case Knuckles players already have an incentive not to climb too much: he's a ridiculously easy target when he's attached to a wall.
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Old 08-01-2011   #130
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Nobody's talking out climbing in multiplayer lol. We were talking about Sonic 3 multiplayer.
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Old 08-01-2011   #131
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So you're saying just give up and let sonic be the only good character in race?
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Old 08-01-2011   #132
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Yup. I don't see any better way.
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Old 08-01-2011   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
Yup. I don't see any better way.
That's a lazy, unprofessional, and bastardized way of doing it.
They COULD just make more paths for other character abilities like Emerald Coast.
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Old 08-01-2011   #134
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Originally Posted by Iceman404 View Post
They COULD just make more paths for other character abilities like Emerald Coast.
I assure you. it won't work. Perfect balance is as good as impossible. Besides, Circuit is a pretty unimportant part of the game, so I don't know who wants to put that effort into it. If you think it would though, try it out yourself.
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Old 08-01-2011   #135
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Originally Posted by Iceman404 View Post
That's a lazy, unprofessional, and bastardized way of doing it.
I agree. Not sitting down and balancing out three characters for four dramatically different game modes perfectly is lazy, unprofessional, and we're horrible people for not doing so.

Sorry, but we care about the character balance for single player, match, and capture the flag. I understand that you may not like this, but the fact of the matter is that balancing out everything for all gametypes is practically impossible and we're going to pick and choose the battles we can win, and making the characters balanced in circuit is not a battle we can win.
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Old 08-02-2011   #136
Sergeant Brown
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Although the new 2.1 Race tracks already give a chance for Tails and Knuckles to win.

I know that perfect balance is impossible, but we can always get as close to it as possible.
Right now, the only way I can think of making Race as balanced as possible is to make Sonic players take long roads while Tails and Knuckles players take shortcuts that only them can reach.

Last edited by Sergeant Brown; 08-02-2011 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 08-02-2011   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown the dog View Post
Although the new 2.1 Race tracks already give a chance for Tails and Knuckles to win.

I know that perfect balance is impossible, but we can always get as close to it as possible.
Right now, the only way I can think of making Race as balanced as possible is to make Sonic players take long roads while Tails and Knuckles players take shortcuts that only them can reach.
I win as Tails a good amount of the time on many tracks. You don't want to make it too easy for him, because his strafe fly ability is quite a bit faster than Sonic's Thok. Harder to use, yes, but that's a good thing.
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Old 08-08-2011   #138
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So I at last played this, some maps are even better then 2.0.6 ones, but:

SONIC CIRCUIT: Hahaha this is joke right? This map has ONE hazard (easy to dodge) and nothing to slow you down. This is horrid thokfest.

NOT A THOKFEST: Well... At least itīs not a thokfest. Seriously what the hell is this itīs booooring. 40 seconds were enough for me to never want to play this īmapī again.
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Old 08-10-2011   #139
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I actually find the map fun. It makes good use of circle-strafing.

Needless to say though I don't like how it's using the countlessly-overused GFZ theme. And there is always a better name for this kind of map than "Not-A-Thokfest Zone".


Oh I know! Make the map look like a canyon and we'll call it "Spring Canyon Zone".
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Old 08-10-2011   #140
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NATZ is not GFZ-themed.
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