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Old 08-10-2020   #21
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If we really wanted that sort of stuff on the forums then at the very least we'd need to dedicate a space to it.
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Old 08-10-2020   #22
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Is is actually quite common for forums (which do not cover political subjects) to ban political discussion. The reason is that there are tons of people (on all sides) who are very passionate about their views and will respond with a very negative tone if you disagree with them.
Well that's what I'm saying though. Even here in this message your problem is people disagreeing with each other, and not what either side actually believes in. If you want a forum where people are accepting and don't act like sociopaths, you are necessarily, quantifiably at odds with entire schools of political thought. I guarantee things are going to come into conflict eventually in ways you won't expect, and the discussion of whether something is political or not (a discussion that is, itself, political) will result in someone being alienated. I think I trust the mods to make sure it's the right someone, sure, but it's in no way a foolproof rule.
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Old 08-10-2020   #23
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Adding a strict age border to a forum like this is kind of silly. Do you really expect everyone to honestly tell their age especially after seeing a rule like that?
But people lying takes the responsibility off the people who run the forum; they shouldn't be responsible because a <12 year old wants to join a forum starts getting himself in danger by sharing extra info or something else - not saying that admins and mods don't care, they surely do, why would they put an age limit if they didn't care?
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Old 08-11-2020   #24
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But people lying takes the responsibility off the people who run the forum; they shouldn't be responsible because a <12 year old wants to join a forum starts getting himself in danger by sharing extra info or something else - not saying that admins and mods don't care, they surely do, why would they put an age limit if they didn't care?
Didn't ever say that they don't care, I don't get why do they tie the problem of getting themselves in danger exclusively to those being of a lower age. As if there is not enough of older ignorant people who can get themselves in danger the same way.
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Old 08-11-2020   #25
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Didn't ever say that they don't care, I don't get why do they tie the problem of getting themselves in danger exclusively to those being of a lower age. As if there is not enough of older ignorant people who can get themselves in danger the same way.
This is a COPPA issue more than anything. It's not just a matter of thinking kids under 13 aren't mature enough to be on these forums (spoiler: they're not), there's legal issues with knowingly allowing underage children to participate in this community. This isn't a new rule either, kids under 13 haven't been allowed on these forums since at least the phpBB days - it's just more prominent in the rules list now.
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Old 08-11-2020   #26
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It's not just a matter of thinking kids under 13 aren't mature enough to be on these forums (spoiler: they're not), there's legal issues with knowingly allowing underage children to participate in this community. This isn't a new rule either, kids under 13 haven't been allowed on these forums since at least the phpBB days - it's just more prominent in the rules list now.
And once again someone discriminates the underage people implying all of them stupid and immature (spoiler: that's not true).
With that out of the way, if that really is the case, I can understand it, since this forum is USA based, and, therefore, must abide by the US laws. Quite logical. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 08-11-2020   #27
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Didn't ever say that they don't care, I don't get why do they tie the problem of getting themselves in danger exclusively to those being of a lower age. As if there is not enough of older ignorant people who can get themselves in danger the same way.
Tell that to the government, mostly in every country you are required to be older than 13 to create an account in most social media. Not ignorance related, but if you want to compare a 9 year old with a 20 in regards of responsibility, then you are completely out of your mind - people of lower age are just not mature enough to handle problems, and they can get themselves in problems (there are exceptions, but tell me how many of them do you know) and that's only 1 reason out of the bunch there are.
I wasn't implying that you said mods didn't care, I mentioned it because my thread might get bad interpreted.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by ~Confusion~ View Post
And once again someone discriminates the underage people implying all of them stupid and immature (spoiler: that's not true).
With that out of the way, if that really is the case, I can understand it, since this forum is USA based, and, therefore, must abide by the US laws. Quite logical. Thanks for clarifying.
It's obviously the case, every page that allows you to create an account, is obligated to make it over 13. We aren't saying they are dumb, stop putting words in our mouths, immaturity doesn't mean dumb, they haven't lived enough time, they are innocent and don't understand many things about the live and can get themselves in danger.
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Old 08-12-2020   #28
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Tell that to the government, mostly in every country you are required to be older than 13 to create an account in most social media. Not ignorance related, but if you want to compare a 9 year old with a 20 in regards of responsibility, then you are completely out of your mind - people of lower age are just not mature enough to handle problems, and they can get themselves in problems (there are exceptions, but tell me how many of them do you know) and that's only 1 reason out of the bunch there are.
I wasn't implying that you said mods didn't care, I mentioned it because my thread might get bad interpreted.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------



It's obviously the case, every page that allows you to create an account, is obligated to make it over 13. We aren't saying they are dumb, stop putting words in our mouths, immaturity doesn't mean dumb, they haven't lived enough time, they are innocent and don't understand many things about the live and can get themselves in danger.
I apologise if I put words in your mouths you didn't imply: I didn't mean to, was simply confused between the meanings of immaturity and stupidity.

And I can guess that this magical number of 13 is just the average age at which people are considered responsible and mature..? What about 12?
Also, I agree that a responsible 9 year old is something tremendously unusual, but what I want to say is that those rules don't account for irresponsible adults|teens, which happen to exist, too...

Once again, please forgive me if I'm bad at wording my thoughts, I don't mean any ill intent, just wishing to clear up the situation for myself.
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Old 08-12-2020   #29
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Originally Posted by ~Confusion~ View Post
I apologise if I put words in your mouths you didn't imply: I didn't mean to, was simply confused between the meanings of immaturity and stupidity.

And I can guess that this magical number of 13 is just the average age at which people are considered responsible and mature..? What about 12?
Also, I agree that a responsible 9 year old is something tremendously unusual, but what I want to say is that those rules don't account for irresponsible adults|teens, which happen to exist, too...

Once again, please forgive me if I'm bad at wording my thoughts, I don't mean any ill intent, just wishing to clear up the situation for myself.
Thank you for being completely honest.
I agree with the age argument, why picking 13 and not 14? I started puberty at that age, so that doesn't apply for every kid. If only there was a way of making sure someone is a responsible adult, but sadly it's the only way of doing the closest thing.
Again, I appreciate the maturity you are keeping towards this little debate.
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Old 08-13-2020   #30
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Okay, clarification on the screenshot rule.

Yes, you cannot post modifications you did not have permission to make, nor can you post screenshots of modifications you did not have permission to make. There's historically been a problem with this in the past.

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If someone draws stuff onto my artwork without then distributing it as theirs, big deal?

And besides, a screenshot of say, an edit of a map? How'd that in any way hurt anyone? Really?
Yes, that is a big deal. It's surprising you use artwork as an example, because things like tracing are a big no-no in art communities. If someone took some of my art and modified it/recolored it/traced it and posted it, I would not approve of that.

It's okay that it isn't a big deal to you personally if someone does this with things you've made, but to some artists it is, and they have a right to be upset that their art is being used outside the scope of what they gave people permission to use it for. It's their intellectual property. In the legal world, this stuff is defined by licenses and all.

As for an edit of a map, the same applies. If you don't have "license" to be making edits to their art because they haven't given you permission to, you can't be showing it off.

HOWEVER,
I completely understand your concern, there can be MANY grey areas in this, and that's probably what's bothering you more than the concept in and of itself. If you need examples of what this would look like in practice and what we'd probably say to specific instances, here's a few:
  • "I've made edits to Inazuma.wad, where he's colored red and has fire antlers to match my own OC. Can I show this off? I have not gotten permission to make this edit."
    Nope, you cannot.
  • "I've created a script which replaces all emerald tokens in the game with munchers from SMW, because it's funny. It by design does affect other people's levels if they had emerald tokens with them. Can I post a gif of gameplay where I had this script running?"
    Yes, you can. And yes, this has happened.
  • "I've fixed what I perceive to be the flaws in Gigalopolis Zone, and am showing off the changes I made to the community. I do not have permission to edit it. Can I show this off?"
    Nope, you cannot.
  • "I have ported something I was not given permission to port, see? In fact, the creator expressly told me he DIDN'T want me porting it, but here it is, because fuck that, I wanna play it. Here I am fooling around in 2.2 Castle Eggman 2 as him."
    Nope, you cannot.
  • "I've created a mod which MASSIVELY changes any loaded content indiscriminately by randomizing it entirely. It makes everything silly."
    Yes, you can.

So yeah, I understand your concerns. There are many grey areas. If there's a takeaway you should have, it's this: Just try to respect artists' intellectual property and don't assume you have the right to show off your interpretation of their art. If you're unsure, ask the author. If their answer seems unreasonable, ask staff. Maybe we'll agree! Maybe not.

It's definitely not our intention to be hardasses on nuance things, and ultimately it's not the sort of thing we're interested in digging too deeply into unless an artist comes to us and says, "Hey, I denied permission for them to make this direct edit to my thing, but they're still showing it off everywhere and I feel disrespected."

THEN we will look into it. Once again, this is a standard we thought about for a while, because these sorts of problems have arisen in the past. I hope that clarifies things and seems respectable enough?
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Okay, on the age limit:

This actually sucks. When we were discussing this in a staff voice chat, we were pretty much all of the mindset, "This game attracts kids, kids are great, and as long as people can get along nicely, we don't want to gatekeep anyone away just because of their age."

There's been a LONGSTANDING precedent of people younger than 13 being involved in this community and being major contributors to the community. It's awesome, really, and thus we're incredibly disappointed we have to make this rule, but:

We have no choice, unfortunately. We read through COPPA while we were discussing this and realized it's pretty black and white. Outside of the collection of parental consent, there's nothing we can do while still remaining legal. The law is just very strict about this, as disappointing as an arbitrary age can be.

Parental consent may be an option, but it's something we're still discussing, i.e., how to handle that can of worms.

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It's not just a matter of thinking kids under 13 aren't mature enough to be on these forums (spoiler: they're not)
Yeah, I'm gonna ask you to keep these rude opinions to yourself, kays. Don't make sweeping prejudiced judgments on anyone's maturity. People grow up at all different rates and in different areas, and the 13 or younger individual who is completely capable of handling themselves in a community of adults is not an anomaly. They do not deserve disrespect, you see!

We don't even like the fact that we have to lock out the mature 13yos that exist here. But that's the age limit the law sets (and we understand why), so we have to abide by that.
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Old 08-13-2020   #31
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But what's going to happen to the users who are currently under 13 and made their accounts before the new rules were put in place?
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Old 08-13-2020   #32
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Yeah, I'm gonna ask you to keep these rude opinions to yourself, kays. Don't make sweeping prejudiced judgments on anyone's maturity. People grow up at all different rates and in different areas, and the 13 or younger individual who is completely capable of handling themselves in a community of adults is not an anomaly. They do not deserve disrespect, you see!

We don't even like the fact that we have to lock out the mature 13yos that exist here. But that's the age limit the law sets (and we understand why), so we have to abide by that.
OK, you're right - that's a bad take on my part, especially considering the ages I and many of my friends joined this community in the first place. I know the administration has been working extremely hard to combat this in recent times (and it shows!), but what was worrying me when I wrote that is the amount of bad actors this kind of community can attract - I was certainly exposed to material that I really shouldn't have been seeing at a young age, and others have had to deal with worse.

Even though the environment here has vastly improved since the 2000s, there's at least one person who's been removed from the community for predatory behavior that's still active in adjacent communities to this day, so I still find it hard to think of this as a totally safe space.
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Old 08-13-2020   #33
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Yeah, I agree. At the end of the day, that's why things like COPPA exist. Not because anyone thinks it keeps everyone safe, but because it's the best we can do to keep MOST people safe -- in lieu of handling things on an individual basis, which society as a whole can't really do.

Even if a lot of the longterm predatory behavior has finally been purged, hoping for none more to rear its head up is just wishful thinking. :pensive:
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Old 08-14-2020   #34
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While the "age gate" thing may prevent some problems I think that it would also be better if we enforce the rules and search to find any kind of suspicious individual that could actually harm them instead.
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Old 08-15-2020   #35
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I might add it's already happening.
The fact some users were banned for doing so, may be related to it being done.
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Old 08-15-2020   #36
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I might add it's already happening.
The fact some users were banned for doing so, may be related to it being done.
And this is a good thing. If this forum is a safe place for people it would be good.
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