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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #1
Moose the Fat Cat
Default Newbie Player sharing some Newbie Thoughts

Hello! I'm a new player. I've come here to say a few things, and I wanted to start a new thread because I feel like I have a lot to say, but it may be rambly and not contained in one post very well, though it's essentially one connected thought. Rather than hijacking, say, the suggestions thread (though I'll post specifics there, too, as I work out my thoughts here), I thought I'd share my Newbie Thoughts* with you here.

*
Spoiler:
*Newbie in this sense: I'm an adult man in his 30s. I played Mario 3 and Sonic 2 as the first video games I loved, then Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles and so forth. I dropped the Sonic series after SA2 because I stopped playing video games in general around that time. After N64 and Dreamcast, I lost interest in gaming for about 5 years until the Wii brought me back, then it was PS3, PS4, Xbox One, and Switch. So, I'm an experienced Sonic gamer, but NOT with computer/PC games and not really with FPS shooters, either. I probably wouldn't have spent any time with SRB2 after the first few minutes of messing around if it were only playable with keyboard and mouse. Being able to play with a gamepad and having the installation be simple was tantamount to reaching me as a player.



I learned about the game for the first time from UnknownLight's post on Reset ERA. I played 2.2 on Mac OS with a Switch Pro joypad for the first time I think two weeks ago, the beginning of March. This weekend, after at least 20-30 hours of playtime (if not more), I completed a full emerald run as Sonic & Tails and as Knuckles, and a lot of unfinished save-files with the bonus characters and Tails solo, Sonic solo.

1) I love it! Oh my god! Congratulations to the developers and this entire community on creating something this special. Jesus! I've been of the mind that Sonic Mania was the best Sonic game ever created but I think SRB2 is actually better. This is, I think, even with the warts and flaws and incompleteness, the Best Sonic Game Ever Made. I do not say that lightly!

2) Sonic Robo Blast 2 is easily the most difficult 3D platformer I've ever played, yet also one of the most satisfying. This truly feels like the Super Mario 64 equivalent of "classic" Sonic, moreso than the Adventure or Modern Boost titles, but ... better. I would be tempted to rank SRB2 as equal or better than any 3D platformer, because of the amazing momentum-based one-button jumping.

3) The biggest issue is the camera controls, which is always an issue in this genre, and I understand is intended for keyboard / mouse. Using the Switch Pro gamepad, I mapped jump to B and R, spin to A and L, first-person to Y, reset camera to X, center camera to R-3, with L-Stick controlling forward/backward/strafe left and right, and R-Stick controlling camera/vision/turning. That was the best I could manage; mapping itself is challenging with the phrasing in the menus. I don't know if it's possible but it would be a big help if the game recognized the pad's button layout rather than Joypad 1, 2, etc.

3a) The control scheme in theory I like. It was not immediately intuitive but eventually I got mostly comfortable with it. When they saw me playing, I handed the controller to my wife and brother-in-law to try it out, and they were very impressed with the game and how it came to be, but were too quickly frustrated by running into walls and not being able to understand where they were in space.

3b) Red Volcano Zone and the corresponding special stage are super frustrating, though I feel like as I get better with the controls the more I would find the narrow platforming and turns more rewarding.

3c) Egg Rock Zone Act 1 - the Knuckles climbing in the lava room on his path is very frustrating because the main challenge is the camera. The room of gliding upside down with the roof bottomless pit is also about being able to control the camera well enough to swerve around the walls.

4) The music is fucking AWESOME, especially the Eggman boss theme. Holy cow. CobaltBW, my wife and I listened to the Soundcloud a few times recently on a long car ride and were jamming to it. It'd be dope if it was also on Spotify.

5) I love the middle zones. Techno Hill, Deep Sea, Castle Eggman, Arid Canyon are some of the best and most memorable Sonic levels I've ever played.

5a) That said, I think the outside sections of Techno Hill are too ugly. Something about the burgundy walls are a huge visual turn-off for some reason. I don't know how to explain it but it looks really... bland and dated and cheap? It just needs a color change. Burnt yellow maybe? Magenta? Turquoise?

6) I wonder if having a different running animation when Sonic is strafing (like a grapevine motion) could help the player understand the movement a bit more? I dunno, maybe not, I know no other game has that animation, but once I understood that left and right meant strafing and not turning, things clicked a bit more.

7) I love how you feel like you really earn the speed once you're able to navigate the levels. It's exhilarating in the way the original Sonic games were at the time. I think it's brilliant to build a Sonic game, or even generally a platformer/jumping/momentum based game, in a Doom engine / FPS scheme.

8) I think it would be fine to have fewer bottomless pits in the last zones, from Arid Canyon to the end. I think it's great that the difficulty increases, but I think Castle Eggman Zone is so fun to replay in part because a mistimed jump doesn't kill you, it drops you into a spike pit.

9) The shields don't feel like they help enough in different ways outside of a few kinda scripted moments. There's some moments where it's cleverly hidden a few rooms away from where it would be most useful, but for the most part the specific varieties didn't seem to make a difference. At least not in the main campaign so far; maybe as I do more emblem hunting there are ones you probably need a specific shield for in a specific place to reach. I don't remember ever needing to use the drop fire / spin move from the Fire/Bubble shield, though it seems cool in theory and looks cool. Does it burn wood? I don't think so? And, I could be wrong, but I don't think the Fire/Bubble shield can walk on lava, right? It would be nice if it could? But maybe that would make it too easy.

10) I think the difficulty in the game is mostly very rewarding. I just think that you can still punish the player with less severity (deaths via bottomless pits) particularly because a lot of the deaths can feel "cheap" because it's more about struggling with the camera than not quite having the precision in jumping. It feels VERY VERY satisfying in this game to have the right timing and precision with jumping/speed/solving a vertical jump problem. But it feels almost equally annoying when you're dying because you can't see around the corner like the character would be able to. There's times where switching to first person makes it a bit easier to navigate but I wish that weren't the case.

11) I wish I could play with the add-ons or the online but it seems like the Mac version, maybe because it's only 2.2 and not 2.2.2, isn't compatible with those things. That's okay, the base game is really what I'm here for... I just wish I could add the camera mod and the 3D model mod and other things like that.

12) I understand the Egg Rock Zones are being completely remapped by the developers. That's cool, there are a lot of cheap and frustrating deaths in those levels, but I LOVED the look of the zone and the music. Very cool.

13) I know the game is incomplete and 2 more zones plus RV2 and 2 are being developed... wow. I'm especially excited for Dark City!

14) Of the bonus stages, I had this thought -- Aerial Gardens is the most fun as a Knuckles level. I wouldn't mind fewer bee drones but my main thought was -- this level should be Sky Sanctuary themed with more Echidna statues / references, and maybe even a hidden path to the Master Emerald or something. That zone has a lot of potential, but I think the main issue is the design looks like Minesweeper instead of what it's going for, amazing ruins of an ancient civilization

15) Are there any plans to expand the ending beyond the fireworks/constellation and the animation of the asteroid breaking out of the space station with the emeralds? Maybe it's something like where one of the un-used hero characters flies in to save you from the exploding Black Core 3 in a rocketship? It'd be REALLY cool if there was an ending epilogue that matched the prologue with animation & copy.

16) This is probably hearsay and if so please have mercy, but... is it possible the "final", or even a 3.0 version, might change the game's title? The reason why you wouldn't change it -- for legacy -- I totally get it. It's cool to honor the long timeline and all the respect in the world to SSNTails and Sonikku for setting this game and community into motion.

That said, the name is obviously bad and I think it holds this game back from reaching more players who would love this! It's amusingly bad when you know the reason behind it, but it's not SO amusing as to justify the self-sabotage. I think there are other ways to include the homage of the "full" and "true" name of SRB2 within the game as an homage, as easter eggs or an optional title screen or something.

16a) "Sonic Doom" was, if I remember reading this right, the original title for SSNTails' multiplayer game which I think became Ringslinger (which I'm unable to play on Mac but that's okay), but I think that title is much more fitting for the experience... in the meta-sense, but it also works better for the story, and it's also a pun on "Sonic Boom." (The final stage of this project should involve somehow getting Tyson Hesse to animate a Sonic CD style animatic set to a song -- Sonic Doooom, Sonic Doooom, Sonic Doooom)

16b) Maybe flip that around and go "Sonic Mood" -- which is a bit more abstract but plays on both Doom, Mod, and Mania, which all seems appropriate. (What is a Sonic mood? It's the happiness that comes with the feelings of freedom and momentum and exhilarating speed once harnessed)

16c) Or it could be something else entirely, I don't know. But, as a newbie who is just learning about this game, I feel like the game deserves the opportunity to brand itself as its own thing.

17) In real life I work as a freelance writer and have covered video games in the past for Vice, IGN, Vulture, Paste, others. I don't know how or when but I feel like this game and this community needs to have its story told. Maybe I'm wrong but this all feels very special and unique and heartwarming, to me. Anecdotally, anyone I've told about it so far has been quite interested, albeit acknowledging it's all very nerdy, but it's definitely a cool story and perhaps with the next major release, I'd love to help tell it to a wider audience.

18) I love the special stages. I haven't earned any grades higher than C on them yet, but I haven't spent a lot of time replaying them outside of the main campaigns. I just think it's very cool and smart to use the Nights stages, I too have always thought they would make great special stages in Sonic, and it is beautiful. Honestly, SRB2, Mania, and Sonic 3 (not S3&K) are the only special stages in the series that I actually enjoy playing.

19) Again I just wish the camera was easier or more intuitive to control with a gamepad... I wish I could see the front of the character.

20) There really need to be drop shadows for the characters!! It's hard enough to gauge distance and accuracy in this kind of 3D environment with the camera controls. The physics feel great, and it all works well once you've got it kinda memorized, but it should be easier to judge where you're going to land in a 3D platformer, imo. Drop shadows!

21) Congratulations again to everyone involved with SRB2 on a fantastic achievement.

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:19 AM.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #2
Goldenhog
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It is unfortunate you're stuck in 2.2.0, since the devs did add drop shadows in 2.2.1.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #3
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2.2.1 also attempts to fix a lot of gamepad woes, namely by including a Simple control scheme option which allows for camera auto-panning as well as camera-locking mechanisms (somewhat akin to Zelda's z-targeting system).
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #4
Moose the Fat Cat
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It seems like the devs don't accept any donations which is very honorable and admirable but I admit I'd happily pay to have the Mac OS version updated to the latest version with those upgrades.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #5
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I knew I wasn't the only one who hated the game's title!

You may want to open the console with the tilde key (the `/~ key) and change cam_height to a higher value so you can see in front of the character better.

Glad you liked it. Welcome to the community. I can't say whether the latest version will be available for Mac anytime soon, but rest assured I am constantly pestering the people responsible for compiling it :p
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
I learned about the game for the first time from UnknownLight's post on Reset ERA.
We all gotta spread the word as best we can! That topic has managed a few successful coverts, which makes me very happy.

Quote:
And, I could be wrong, but I don't think the Fire/Bubble shield can walk on lava, right? It would be nice if it could? But maybe that would make it too easy.
It does, in fact. There's an Element Shield hidden way off the beaten path around halfway through Red Volcano, and it pretty much acts as permanent invincibility since almost all hazards in that level are fire/lava based.

Quote:
16a) "Sonic Doom" was, if I remember reading this right, the original title for SSNTails' multiplayer game which I think became Ringslinger (which I'm unable to play on Mac but that's okay), but I think that title is much more fitting for the experience... in the meta-sense, but it also works better for the story, and it's also a pun on "Sonic Boom." (The final stage of this project should involve somehow getting Tyson Hesse to animate a Sonic CD style animatic set to a song -- Sonic Doooom, Sonic Doooom, Sonic Doooom)
Sonic Zoom!

Quote:
It seems like the devs don't accept any donations which is very honorable and admirable but I admit I'd happily pay to have the Mac OS version updated to the latest version with those upgrades.
It's more of a legal issue. Sega allows Sonic fangames, but not if they make any money from it.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #7
Moose the Fat Cat
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Originally Posted by Unknownlight View Post
We all gotta spread the word as best we can! That topic has managed a few successful coverts, which makes me very happy.
Your OP was a great post! Great job pitching the game! Rereading it now I think it honestly helps that your post starts off by explaining the title, haha. Also the trailer is really great, of course.

Quote:
It does, in fact. There's an Element Shield hidden way off the beaten path around halfway through Red Volcano, and it pretty much acts as permanent invincibility since almost all hazards in that level are fire/lava based.
Thanks for the tip! I need to explore that zone more. It's really cool. I'm excited to see what the devs do with Act 2... I wonder if it will have any echoes of Hidden Palace in the way Red Volcano Act 1 calls to mind Lava Reef?

The music and atmosphere of Deep Sea is so wonderful... it's definitely my favorite water level for any of the Sonic ones, I think, or right equal with Hydrocity.

The level progression in SRB2 is really excellent.

Greenflower being Green or Emerald Hill

Techno Hill being Chemical Plant

Deep Sea being Aquatic Ruin or Hydrocity or Labyrinth

Castle Eggman is quite unique for the Sonic games which haven't really used castle themes before but it's dope as shit and probably my favorite overall level. CE3 is the best boss fight, too; love the whole thing and especially the crowd of Egg Robos, lmao.

Arid Canyon is another wonderfully unique one; the desert saloon zone in Sonic Mania is a good parallel. Both fun to zip around, both feature Fang, both have killer music tracks. The Looney Tunes homages are fun.

Red Volcano being a much more challenging version of Lava Reef or the lava sections in Hill Top or perhaps Red Mountain from SA1... I need to spend more time here. I like the lava sections. The green pterodactyl drones are awful bastards, which is cool, but again I feel like the game would benefit for fewer bottomless pits. If the bottomless sections were more forgiving, the game wouldn't lose anything for it IMO. Punishment by being dropped into lava or spikes is enough, and being able to have a chance at recovery... or just having a few more lower platforms to catch yourself if you've been hit mid-air or something... it makes the experience of trying again a bit more fun and a bit less frustrating.

I think Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 & K are so good because there really aren't many bottomless pits, even in the final levels. I am totally fine with being punished as a player for missing jumps, but I feel like Sonic works best when there's a trade off because of the speed. SRB2 totally nails the exploration and alternate paths appeal of Sonic in a far better way than Modern Sonic, but it shares the flaw of too many bottomless pits imo.

I love the aesthetic of Egg Rock... imo, fewer bottomless pit deaths would be a good change; it would still be challenging. But I like this one, even though it's the oldest in the main campaign, for the vibe and the wackiness. It's already better than any of the Death Egg zones.

Black Core is effective, I like the three tiers of bosses. It needs a bit more stakes in the story context... it's missing a bit of what made the endings of classic Sonic games feel so epic and sweeping. There's no "stolen Master Emerald" thing like Doomsday Zone; or Sonic 2's the Death Egg is launching we need to fly to it, oh no Tails is down; or Sonic 3's the Death Egg is launching and oh no Knuckles is still blocking us; or Sonic CD's rescuing Amy and the future.

It feels like a lot of the pieces are there -- Fang as the surprise boss in Arid Canyon, Metal Sonic as the first two final bosses, the earth background and space station setting, the monitors with warning signs -- just needs something else to heighten the drama.

Very curious about the upcoming zones, especially Dark City. I believe I read it's based on the Land of Darkness from the OVA, or maybe the Archie/SatAM vision of Robotropolis? A dark metal Metropolis.

Or there's also a chance for Dark City to be a shot of neon brightness that the game lacks. There's no equivalent to Starlight, Casino Night, Carnival Night, Stardust Speedway, Studiopolis.

Dark City could do that, have it basically be Gotham City -- still looks like the Land of Darkness from the OVA, but it's populated with a Vegas neon glitz and colorful villains, like the rogues gallery of Gotham. In the way Arid Canyon draws from Looney Tunes and Castle Eggman nods toward Dark Souls, Dark City could maybe find something aesthetically unique with Sonic in Batmanland.

Quote:
Sonic Zoom!
"Sonic Zoom" is a great idea for an alt title!

I'm trying to think of other suggestions. It would need to be something strong enough to justify a change, and convey the era/spirit/origin in the same way "Robo Blast 2" does.

It could be the third to just be titled "Sonic the Hedgehog (1998)". It communicates the parallel earth version of what the Sonic series could've done in 3D (or could still do, or through Sonic Team Jr, is currently doing).

"Sonic & Friends". Evokes the "Sonic & Tails" game gear series and "Sonic & Knuckles." Also nods toward the unique multiplayer, and the fact that the game comes from a community.

"Sonic & Tails & Knuckles" (full title revealed once every character is unlocked: "Sonic & Tails & Knuckles & Amy Rose & Fang & Metal Sonic") It's kind of the right amount of stupid or ironically ridiculous, yet also accurate, and true to the series.

"Sonic Robo Blast 2." Big advantage here is it's already the name, why change it? It evokes Sonic 3D Blast, which is accurate to convey the time period and that it's Sonic in 3D, which is theoretically a blast, if not a jam or an adventure.

The "2" is difficult because SRB2 has changed so much through 20 year development ... if SRB2 to SRB1 is Street Fighter II to SF, isn't SRB2v2.2 more like Sonic Robo Blast 2: Hyper Tournament Champion Edition?

But my main issue with the title isn't that it sounds like bad fanfic, when the game itself is so incredible... it's that there is no robo blasting! Not really! The badnik enemies are kinda beside the point (rightly so in a Sonic game). I guess the title kind of nods toward Eggman's master plan, robo blasting earth from a comet?, but what is a robo blast and why does it feel so stupid to say? Answering these questions does then lead us into bad fanfic.

I dunno! Here are some other more general pitches.

"Sonic Blast R2"
"Sonic R Blast 2"
"Sonic Ruins" (it will ruin your ability to enjoy other Sonic 3D platformers)
"Sonic Blast Ruins" (also the plot of the intro)
"Sonic 3D World"
"Sonic Zones 3D"
"Sonic VRoom" (when v4.2 is ported to VR)

Edit:

Thinking about the name led to this idea for a mod, inspired by Sonic Dash (the mobile endless runner game) and Sonic 3D Blast: Could the animals released from badniks be collectible? Besides rings / emerald tokens / emblems, I feel like the game wouldn't hurt to have 1 or 2 more mid-level collectible things just for fun.

Collectible Animals would encourage a player to do a run-through where you search out and destroy each badnik. Rescue mode, or Freedom Fighter mode. Of course, then the question is, to what end? You collect the animals to do what?

I'm not saying there needs to be a Chao Garden. Okay well yes I am saying that. But the reward is just the collectible itself, it doesn't need to have an ambitious payoff. For example in Sonic Dash, you collect the animals and once you have a certain number, then you can fix up the Eggman pollution to install a flickie bird bath or whatever on the home screen.

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:02 AM.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #8
Moose the Fat Cat
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Originally Posted by SeventhSentinel View Post
I knew I wasn't the only one who hated the game's title!

You may want to open the console with the tilde key (the `/~ key) and change cam_height to a higher value so you can see in front of the character better.

Glad you liked it. Welcome to the community. I can't say whether the latest version will be available for Mac anytime soon, but rest assured I am constantly pestering the people responsible for compiling it :p
Holy crap I just tried using "configanalog on" from the console, then mapped camera left and right to the bumpers, jump to B and spin to A/Y and.... the controls are so much better!!! I can see the front of the sprites!! I can see where I'm going! I also added 5 to the cam height and that also helped!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #9
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Update -- okay I can see that playing with "configanalog on" has drawbacks too, although it does feel a bit more intuitive with a gamepad. Increasing the camera speed on the shoulder buttons helps. I wish I could control the camera with the R-stick, or I could more easily switch between "configanalog on" and "configanalog off" in gameplay to quickly reset the camera behind the character.

All that is to say — I can't waiiiiiit to play the latest version of 2.2.2 to try out the Simple Controls!

Having a button to "Z-target" / reset the camera behind the player easily would really solve a lot of these issues and make the game 10x more enjoyable.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
Having a button to "Z-target" / reset the camera behind the player easily would really solve a lot of these issues and make the game 10x more enjoyable.
Eeyup, that's also a feature of Simple Controls. It even Z-targets bosses, and there's an option to do the same for normal enemies.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #11
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Just wanted to offer for any Macbook / Gamepad players who might stumble upon this thread, I finally found a control scheme that really works for me. It was posted in the controls thread by JackelZXA.

Turn-left + camera-left both to L1
Turn-right + camera-right both to R1.
Face buttons for jump and spin.
L-stick movement, R-stick camera.

The shoulder buttons are hard turns, and it makes a surprising amount of difference. I finally feel like I am really in control. I started a run-through as Tails solo, now that the controls feel intuitive, and it is Godly fun.

Other files:
Sonic & Tails - 7 emeralds, clear
Knuckles - 7 emeralds, clear
Amy Rose - 5 emeralds, DSZ1
Fang - 3 emeralds, ACZ1
Metal - 0 emeralds, CEZ1
Sonic solo - 5 emeralds, DSZ1

Otherwise... I'm now kind of fading from playing it, sadly, though I'm enjoying replaying the levels a bit more now that the controls feel better.

I'm emblem hunting, and trying to get through Azure Temple as Knuckles or Sonic & Tails and really hating it, but hoping clearing it maybe helps to unlock further levels!
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #12
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I've been meaning to respond to this for a while, just haven't been at home to. I love that you're thrilled with the game and your enthusiasm shows. I'm going to try and limit my answers to points that most need addressing.

Quote:
3a) The control scheme in theory I like. It was not immediately intuitive but eventually I got mostly comfortable with it. When they saw me playing, I handed the controller to my wife and brother-in-law to try it out, and they were very impressed with the game and how it came to be, but were too quickly frustrated by running into walls and not being able to understand where they were in space.
This is precisely why we have the tutorial. We recognize our game is super different and weird. It looks like a traditional platformer, but there's no two ways about the fact that it's actually a 3rd-person scheme with an optional 1st-person camera, which is masquerading as a platformer. Starting with the tutorial is usually the best way to start new players because it explicitly acknowledges that the game takes a little getting used to.

Quote:
3b) Red Volcano Zone and the corresponding special stage are super frustrating,
I should comment on this since I'm the one that makes the special stages.

There are two remaining areas that are problem sections for SS6. The first room has a not-quite-blind turn into hazards that aren't obvious from the start (I have a plan for that), and the visuals in the last room are pretty bad with the new lava texture. It was nowhere near as bad as it is now, because the lava used to be both translucent and a different color from the walls. That's no longer the case.

Quote:
5a) That said, I think the outside sections of Techno Hill are too ugly. Something about the burgundy walls are a huge visual turn-off for some reason. I don't know how to explain it but it looks really... bland and dated and cheap? It just needs a color change. Burnt yellow maybe? Magenta? Turquoise?
I tend to agree, but I dunno if/when we would update it. I like the visuals of the orange texture in Special Stage 2, though, so it could be something with just how bright it is?

Quote:
6) I wonder if having a different running animation when Sonic is strafing (like a grapevine motion) could help the player understand the movement a bit more? I dunno, maybe not, I know no other game has that animation, but once I understood that left and right meant strafing and not turning, things clicked a bit more.
AFAIK the game actually doesn't acknowledge that difference in a meaningful way, so I don't think this is actually feasible.

Quote:
8) I think it would be fine to have fewer bottomless pits in the last zones, from Arid Canyon to the end. I think it's great that the difficulty increases, but I think Castle Eggman Zone is so fun to replay in part because a mistimed jump doesn't kill you, it drops you into a spike pit.
I think Egg Rock is completely fair in how it handles bottomless pits, as do I think RVZ is, as its are usually off the track you're going on for the most part. Arid Canyon I think is the bigger offender here. There are definitely areas I think it's completely reasonable (Such as the tornado segments because you're given a very good target to hit and your momentum is largely decided for you, so avoiding death is really easy), but there are probably a few areas we can stand to not be so liberal with them.

Quote:
9) The shields don't feel like they help enough in different ways outside of a few kinda scripted moments.
All the designs predate our current game design. I don't agree completely but there is a validity here. We actually had a script at one point to give Whirlwind the ability to respawn you if you fell off a pit, but that was pre-2.2 design and getting into positions where you would still basically be forced to die was too easy. The other abilities are niche and wound up mostly relegated to record attack gimmicks. I think we could move away from that, but it might be more effort than it's worth at this point.

Quote:
10) I think the difficulty in the game is mostly very rewarding. I just think that you can still punish the player with less severity (deaths via bottomless pits) particularly because a lot of the deaths can feel "cheap" because it's more about struggling with the camera than not quite having the precision in jumping. It feels VERY VERY satisfying in this game to have the right timing and precision with jumping/speed/solving a vertical jump problem. But it feels almost equally annoying when you're dying because you can't see around the corner like the character would be able to. There's times where switching to first person makes it a bit easier to navigate but I wish that weren't the case.
I would recommend taking screenshots of where you find this to be an issue and posting those areas in the suggestions thread. It would be a lot easier to address this if we knew where this was an issue.

Quote:
14) Of the bonus stages, I had this thought -- Aerial Gardens is the most fun as a Knuckles level. I wouldn't mind fewer bee drones but my main thought was -- this level should be Sky Sanctuary themed with more Echidna statues / references, and maybe even a hidden path to the Master Emerald or something. That zone has a lot of potential, but I think the main issue is the design looks like Minesweeper instead of what it's going for, amazing ruins of an ancient civilization
It's actually going for the "Sacred temple" feel and not the ruins of an ancient civilization. Whether or not it should be this way can be up for debate, but I think you're missing the intent.

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15) Are there any plans to expand the ending beyond the fireworks/constellation and the animation of the asteroid breaking out of the space station with the emeralds?
Yes.

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16) This is probably heresy and if so please have mercy, but... is it possible the "final", or even a 3.0 version, might change the game's title?
Anything is technically possible, but no, we really aren't likely to change the name of the game at this point. It's got 20 years of notoriety behind it.

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In real life I work as a freelance writer and have covered video games in the past for Vice, IGN, Vulture, Paste, others. I don't know how or when but I feel like this game and this community needs to have its story told. Maybe I'm wrong but this all feels very special and unique and heartwarming, to me. Anecdotally, anyone I've told about it so far has been quite interested, albeit acknowledging it's all very nerdy, but it's definitely a cool story and perhaps with the next major release, I'd love to help tell it to a wider audience.
This would be really cool. Hit me up if you have some ideas for this in mind!

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18) I love the special stages. I haven't earned any grades higher than C on them yet, but I haven't spent a lot of time replaying them outside of the main campaigns. I just think it's very cool and smart to use the Nights stages, I too have always thought they would make great special stages in Sonic, and it is beautiful. Honestly, SRB2, Mania, and Sonic 3 (not S3&K) are the only special stages in the series that I actually enjoy playing.
You have no idea how much I love hearing this. There was a lot of effort put into those and a [i]lot[/] of back-and-forthing between me and other devs over the years to hammer them out to what they are now. I'm super proud of them and love seeing when they're appreciated.

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Dark City Speculation
We definitely have been discussing Dark City and we have some really fun and unique ideas for it.

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I'm emblem hunting, and trying to get through Azure Temple as Knuckles or Sonic & Tails and really hating it, but hoping clearing it maybe helps to unlock further levels!
There aren't too many more right now, but there are definitely plans for some in the future. We aren't done yet! =P

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21) Congratulations again to everyone involved with SRB2 on a fantastic achievement.
Thanks a lot, this means a lot to us. We put a lot of love into it and it's nice to be acknowledged for it~
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #13
softchassis
 
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I think Egg Rock is completely fair in how it handles bottomless pits, as do I think RVZ is, as its are usually off the track you're going on for the most part. Arid Canyon I think is the bigger offender here. There are definitely areas I think it's completely reasonable (Such as the tornado segments because you're given a very good target to hit and your momentum is largely decided for you, so avoiding death is really easy), but there are probably a few areas we can stand to not be so liberal with them.
I'm by no means a newbie (been playing since the final demo days) but I feel like SRB2 has overall surprisingly fair use of bottomless pits for a platform game. They're not really used as hazards, per se, but are just like, areas to avoid as you travel through the level organically, such as the outdoor sections of RVZ. Egg Rock Zone is the exception, but even then you guys are smart enough to make the sections involving bottomless pits fair. Difficult, but fair.

The only place I really feel like needs to be changed re:bottomless pits is the astoundingly long pulley-rope section at the end of ACZ1. It goes on for too long and the pulley-ropes are annoyingly slow, plus jumping onto a perpendicular pulley can be tricky for newcomers since jumping off of a rope-pulley has momentum. I would much rather have some more platforming challenges or even another speed challenge like the section with the golden speed shoes monitor.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #14
Moose the Fat Cat
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Thanks for the responses, Rob... yes, let's DM about doing a story about SRB2! I have a few ideas and I think one of the outlets would be interested in a feature.

Re: bottomless pits

I should say I have somewhat revised this opinion. Since I've now posted about it several times -- I do feel that ultimately Sonic games are the most fun when bottomless pits are almost nonexistent, like Sonic 2, most of S3K & Mania are free of bottomless pits. Its part of what makes a Zone feel so different from a Mario Level.

Replaying Red Volcano multiple times since posting that -- as Sonic, Tails, and Sonic & Tails, and Knuckles -- I realize that it's actually really good about bottomless pits. I was misremembering when posting before and wrongly attributed my frustration in RVZ to one of my general pet peeves.

RVZ does exactly what I'm asking for already! The lava is a great floor hazard, and I like that it eats rings. As my comfort with the controls has increased, RVZ is a level I've really... ... ... ...warmed up to.

I would agree that the bottomless pits are fair. I definitely wouldn't call them unfair. They can sometimes feel "cheap" but I think that's just generally how I feel about bottomless pits.

I feel like if half of the bottomless pits were replaced with floor hazards, the game wouldn't be any less satisfying to execute successfully if the punishment were slightly less severe than death.

The bottomless pits in SRB2 are well justified for the most part, too. It makes sense that falling from the platform at the top of a canyon mountain, or an aerial garden, or in outer space would lead to immediate death.

Incidentally, I now agree that the major sore spot for bottomless pits is Arid Canyon Zone.

The long pulley section at the end should be the "high" path, and thus completing it ought to lead to some kind of extra reward.

Then there could be a "low" path of plateau platforms that is easier and generally faster.

The location of the End Sign would need to be moved to a cavemouth platform on the lower level. The pulleys would lead to where the extra reward is, and then have a shaft down to the bottom where the End Sign is located.

---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I tend to agree, but I dunno if/when we would update it. I like the visuals of the orange texture in Special Stage 2, though, so it could be something with just how bright it is?
Actually, yeah! I think that could do it. It's too muted, maybe?

I don't really know how one goes about changing the colors. But even if the color scheme remained, and were swapped -- like if the grass were burgundy and the walls were silver, I feel like even that would look cooler.

Inside the factory, I think the zone REALLY pops... the gray / silver / black/ purple / orange, plus the black/blue/red/orange of the city skyline. Really cool.

In terms of the level layout, the outdoor sections in TH1 are among my very favorite areas to run & thok through.

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All the designs predate our current game design. I don't agree completely but there is a validity here. We actually had a script at one point to give Whirlwind the ability to respawn you if you fell off a pit, but that was pre-2.2 design and getting into positions where you would still basically be forced to die was too easy. The other abilities are niche and wound up mostly relegated to record attack gimmicks. I think we could move away from that, but it might be more effort than it's worth at this point.
Yeah I'm not sure what the solution would be. Part of me thinks they should just be a bit more accessible, a few more out in the open in the second half of the game.

I had a wild hair of an idea that it might be a justification for Super versions of all characters if they each automatically had one of the shield powers.

Super Metal would have the nuke shield and could just obliterate everything.

Sonic would have elemental so he can breathe underwater and be enjoyed more in DSZ. His jump/spin would remain hover, to keep him unique, but the other Supers would have an inherent ability of one of the shields.

Tails whirlwind, Knuckles magnet, Fang double-shield jump-stopper, Amy is elemental but her jump/spin isn't hover so she would have the downward smash.

Easier said than done, just an idea!

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I would recommend taking screenshots of where you find this to be an issue and posting those areas in the suggestions thread. It would be a lot easier to address this if we knew where this was an issue.
Thank you, I've begun to do this! I will!


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It's actually going for the "Sacred temple" feel and not the ruins of an ancient civilization. Whether or not it should be this way can be up for debate, but I think you're missing the intent.
You're right. I am projecting ruins onto it, I guess because of the emptiness and scattered platforms? I'm not sure.

Inside the grand temple/s in the later parts of the level are really cool, I like the puzzles and backtracking, and I love the long straightaways to run/spin.

I think my main note though is it feels like it's lacking character or personality a bit. I know it's an older level too, so I don't mean it in any sort of dismissive way, just an idea of what could help... ... ... ...elevate it.

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We definitely have been discussing Dark City and we have some really fun and unique ideas for it.
Oooh yeah. Hyped. Is there any concept art? Any teases?
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #15
Moose the Fat Cat
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oh my god I finally figured out how to get the add-ons to work (didn't even think to check data options) and I'M BACK IN.

I've never enjoyed Modern Sonic before but that character mod in SRB2 might be the most fun I've ever had playing any Sonic game ever.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #16
Moose the Fat Cat
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After watching my interest turn to enthusiasm mutate into obsession with some amusement, my wife will be playing co-op campaign with me during our corona quarantining tonight or tomorrow or it's hard to know what day it is.

I'm very excited to be able to share it with someone in person; the online multiplayer doesn't seem to be accessible since the Mac version is outdated, so I didn't expect to play any multiplayer at all. I've been recommending the game to friends, just looking to talk more about it, and so far one played, he said he enjoyed it and liked the music and said it was fun, but not sure exactly how much he really played.

It also took me a horrifyingly long time to figure out how to get mods to work (didn't occur to me to check the data options until it did) but now that I've been playing as the characters and levels from Releases, it's like every time I think I'm winding down playing the game (al pacino) they keep pullin' me back in. (/pacino)

Sadly the 3D blocky Sonic R / Jam model pack doesn't seem to work with 2.2.0 / Mac / idk. But the level packs have been awesome. I really like all of the characters. Eggman, Werehog, and Modern Sonic are my favorites.

Werehog & Modern, it's amazing because I really do not like playing as either character in any form outside of SRB2, but here, I feel both really elevate the gameplay experience and make a better case for their move-sets than the actual games do.

Double jump, homing attack, boost, down-smash/slide... it's so much fun to tear through a zone and really feel like you're in control of a blue blur that's faster than sound. Mostly in control. I put the camera speed back to normal. Turn+look L and R being on the shoulder buttons is fantastic.

Modern Sonic's homing attack and down-smash solve a lot of camera issues anyway. Overall it's been fun to play these with overpowered characters, it makes the game easier and more fun. I feel like regular Sonic is hard mode, and Sonic & Tails are a good normal starter set, but Modern Sonic would be cool to be accessible from the start in a future build.

[Idea] Maybe a future addition could lay out the character selection like this:

Easy
Normal
Hard

Easy:
Modern Sonic
Tails
Mighty
Dr. Eggman
Werehog

Normal:
Sonic & Tails
Knuckles
Amy Rose
Fang

Hard:
Sonic
Metal Sonic
[/Idea]

Maybe some are in the wrong spot but you get the idea!

SRB2 has already made a better case for an expanded playable Sonic cast than maybe any other title in the series.

[Another idea]
This is my personal quirk but I don't love the nomenclature of Modern and Classic as distinctions... I hate the idea (in Sonic Forces) that they're two separate individuals and not just a younger / older version of the same character.

Modern Sonic should be Teen Sonic or Adult Sonic in the way that there's Toon Link and Young Link.

Or perhaps base Sonic gains the modifier, I don't like "Classic Sonic" but I kinda like "Sonic (classic)"
[/idea]

SRB2 really fills a much needed hole in what currently exists for available playable Sonic video games. It's the Mario 64 of Sonic, but better. It would definitely be in my Top 10 favorite video games ever already. It's the game I've always wanted.

It's
just
so
$@#*(!&ing
GOOD!!!
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #17
Unknownlight
 
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You have no idea how much it sucks to see you stuck on Mac. Not having access to the latest versions isn't even the biggest issue, it's that you don't have access to the old versions of the game. You need v2.1 to play the SUGOI trilogy, which are three level packs with ~40 levels each.

The packs are guaranteed to be ported to 2.2 eventually, but who knows when that will be?

(By the way, while I almost never use Discord, the SRB2 server is here. The forums used to be more active before Discord took over.)
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #18
Moose the Fat Cat
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SRB2 may end up being a system seller... first time I've been really considering buying a gaming PC!

But there's so much to love in the base game and the mod packs I do have access to, anyway.

Playing with Modern feels so natural I don't know if I'll really be able to enjoy another character quite as much, but before I figured out how to add-on, I was enjoying replaying the Metal Sonic race as Sonic, getting all of the Nights bonus stages up to Cs, emblem hunting with Tails and Knuckles, and getting stuck at Arid Canyon with Amy, Fang, and Metal.

Werehog and Mighty and Eggman and Flickie all are so cool. Haven't been able to download the others, but Silver looks really fun. And who knows what someone might make next? It seems like anyone could be possible. Shadow, Rouge, Big the Cat, Omega, Espio, Vector, Charmy Big the Cat. Cream the Rabbit, Tikal the Echidna, Big the Cat. Truly anyone!

Just played a couple of level packs that blew my socks off. Some of the acts in the level packs I played were as good or better than the main campaign.

And ... there's so much potential on top of what's already there. I can't get enough. It really hasn't been since BOTW that I've been this into a game. It rocks so hard. The mania is real.
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