Sonic's Ability Discussion

Instead of locking this thread how about a sticky reply or edit the original post to add the developers' stance on the subject and what they won't do if the intention is to avoid going in circles.

(now you're going both off-topic and backseat moderating, just so you know......)

RomioTheBadass said:

Instead of locking this thread how about a sticky reply or edit the original post to add the developers' stance on the subject and what they won't do if the intention is to avoid going in circles.

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Good idea, this would bring us a valid answer to the question.

time gear said:

This is one of the big reasons I have been advocating for a three button system, it allows for expansions to movesets without conflictions like this, so these kinds of choices end up not needing to be made. SRB2 uses some of the fewest buttons out of a 3D platformer I have seen in a long time, regardless of sub-genre. Whether it be more linear titles such as the original Crash trilogy or the Dreamcast/Modern Era Sonic games, or Mario 64-likes such as the Spyro Trilogy or A Hat in Time, pretty much everything makes use of significantly more than a mere 2 buttons aside from movement without complicating things too much for new players or slowing the gameplay down to learn the controls. Even Mario 64 itself is just kinda like "Here's Mario, you are in control of him. Go have fun." aside from the signs that most players ignore anyway. The player is encouraged to learn the controls at their own pace as they play, rather than dedicated tutorial segments that slow the gameplay down to a snails pace just to learn one ability.

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I don't think a three button system is entirely out of the question; it may largely depend on precedent and implementation. I could see it working for actions that are context-sensitive to the game mode - i.e. for Sonic & Tails is activates call flight, and for multiplayer it activates an item or menu of some sort. The Fire Ring key and Toss Flag Key are both good candidates for this.

cookiefonster said:

Do you really think the homing attack or related abilities haven't already been extensively tested by dev before they decided that ability wouldn't work out in SRB2? Though the SRB2 dev team is very open to suggestions, there's a clear reason why some very obvious suggestions haven't been implemented yet. It's a reason the attraction shield's ability isn't quite the same as the homing attack, rather an ability with roughly the same premise that preserves your momentum but cannot be chained. I do know that dev has at least been considering revising the attraction shield's ability, but I can't imagine it'll be much closer to the homing attack than it currently is.

(I know I said I wanted this thread to be locked, but I still feel the need to state this obvious fact.)

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I don't think that at all! I am of course operating under the assumption it's been tested and implemented.

I know the game's been evolving and developing for 20 years and don't assume "Homing" is, itself, any sort of new idea or anything like that.

And even the proposal of "Homing + Thok" on two separate buttons, though I haven't seen any Mod use it, I also have consciously avoided labeling it as "my" idea, and instead as the "suggestion I'm advocating for," for this reason.

The disconnect is -- does the reasoning against Homing hold water?

I'm not sure that it does!

Or, at least, I haven't read a reason against its inclusion that is stronger than the reasoning for its inclusion.

If Homing fundamentally does not work in SRB2... why does it feel sooooo good to use? Why do so many add that ability in Mods?

I don't think it's just because we all love the Sonic Adventure games so much we can't bare to live without those abilities... certainly that's not where I'm coming from on it.

I press the issue because I am genuinely looking for an answer that squares with the experience I've had with the game, and with what I continue to notice from other new players.

The more I press the issue in search of a concrete answer, the more it is seeming like a blind spot of a not-fully-examined bias (which isn't any kind of crime; it happens), and if that's even partly the case, then the "newbie/outsider" perspective that I'm able to offer might be helpful in re-opening something that wasn't fully closed.

So, that's where I'm coming from!

I press the issue because I am genuinely looking for an answer that squares with the experience I've had with the game, and with what I continue to notice from other new players.

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The homing attack in the Sonic Adventure games is designed with the ability to not require levels of precision accuracy to play. I'm willing to bet that's why it feels good. You get that satisfying feel of getting to bash the enemy you're targetting every time. You get a cool chase sequence and you get to dash out after a chain. You feel cool for having bashed a few enemies and can continue going forward at high speeds. It *feels* cool, it has a flow to it and the appeal is definitely there for it. I get that.

However, homing attack has two drawbacks, and they're very major and conflict with our design philosophy. The first is that it absolutely trivializes enemies to the point where the only way to make them challenging is for them to actually become immune to you. The second thing that it does is make it so enemies can take the place of actual platforming mechanics, thus encouraging low-effort and lazy level design that feels good for a bit until you start looking for the meat and potatoes of an actual platforming game.

The best example of this happening is Final Egg in Sonic Adventure 1. Ignoring the enemies for a moment, you have a particularly easy level that has a few sections you literally can't beat because there's no way to get from point A to point B. There's not actually much there at all. The level doesn't provide much in the way of challenges. It's really bland. But adding the enemies back in doesn't really fix this. The enemies act as the bridge for those sections you can't get across I mentioned earlier (acting to replace what should be proper platforming), and acting as a hazard by flickering on and off with their electricity, making it so you have to time your jumps. Now, that sounds neat in theory, but that actually just translates to you sitting and waiting for an enemy to become vulnerable, not doing anything in the meantime. This is not a good experience.

We don't design our levels or our enemies this way. We want our enemies to be something you have to engage with, and figure out. Learn how they work and beat them with skill and thinking. Not with automated targetting. Same with level design. We want engaging levels where you have to figure out how to approach the stage and the hazards it presents. Most importantly, we want to do that in tandem. The enemies and the stage should complement each other to make the game actually require skill and thought to beat. Homing Attack does not accomplish this. It causes the opposite to happen.

We're also already stretched really thin with 6 different characters + abilities. We're trying to figure out how to handle thok, which makes us have to consider how to do yet another ability. It does not make sense to try to make that ability be something that goes against our design philosophies when we already have a few ideas floating around that work within our current design philosophies. I want to be abundantly clear, I'm not saying homing attack can't be fun, but it is not something we are interested in including in the game because we strongly believe it would be a detriment to everything we've done so far.

Rob said:

snip

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I've had that concept in my head for a while but couldn't find a way to word it, so thanks for that. As I was saying much earlier in the thread, the homing attack is instant gratification. It has short term benefits in terms of feeling, but in the long term it simply just isn't as practical as something like thok. Figuring out the right way to tweak the thok feels much more like the right way to go rather than replacing it with homing attack. I would sooner even concede with replacing thok with double jump before replacing it with homing attack, because at least the double jump has practical applications that don't just have to do with attacking enemies and hitting springs/monitors.

The homing attack was made for the Adventure and Boost level designs... I don't think it fits that much for the more classic and open-ended style of level design that SRB2 has.

There's a wide variety of enemies in SRB2 that have various ways to defeat them: some can only be hit in certain areas, some only by jumping, some only by spinning, some that take two hits, some that do an on-and-off sort of thing, and they all have a wide variety of mobility patterns too. A homing attack would basically ruin the point of these enemies and make their vulnerability completely black and white, much like what Rob said. It's just like how the Adventure games' enemies are mostly just stationary setpieces designed for the homing attack rather than anything interesting. You could argue that Fang's gun also makes vulnerability black and white, but it requires you to stop and aim so as not to make combat trivial.

To be honest, I agree that the homing attack doesn’t really fit SRB2. And this is coming from someone who friggin’ LOVES the homing attack. It can not be understated how much I adore that ability. But it just doesn’t fit SRB2. Yes, that pinball platforming that the homing attack gives is fun and, without the loss in momentum, very Sonic-like. But it’s not very SRB2-like, for reasons that Rob and others have already mentioned. Yes, it’s a good move for Sonic. But it’s not a good move for SRB2. What we need is something that balances the speed capabilities of the thok with something that gives newer players a bit more assistance with platforming in some way. That could be something like a double jump that lets you go higher or farther, or something like the momentum flip which can help save you when you fuck up. And if you’re a new player, unused to SRB2’s more difficult platforming, you’re gonna fuck up. Either way, the homing attack doesn’t really have that balance of platforming capability and speed gain that we’re looking for. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good ability, necessarily, it just...doesn’t fit this particular game.

SpicyHamSamson said:

To be honest, I agree that the homing attack doesn’t really fit SRB2. And this is coming from someone who friggin’ LOVES the homing attack. It can not be understated how much I adore that ability. But it just doesn’t fit SRB2. Yes, that pinball platforming that the homing attack gives is fun and, without the loss in momentum, very Sonic-like. But it’s not very SRB2-like, for reasons that Rob and others have already mentioned. Yes, it’s a good move for Sonic. But it’s not a good move for SRB2. What we need is something that balances the speed capabilities of the thok with something that gives newer players a bit more assistance with platforming in some way. That could be something like a double jump that lets you go higher or farther, or something like the momentum flip which can help save you when you fuck up. And if you’re a new player, unused to SRB2’s more difficult platforming, you’re gonna fuck up. Either way, the homing attack doesn’t really have that balance of platforming capability and speed gain that we’re looking for. That doesn’t mean it’s not a good ability, necessarily, it just...doesn’t fit this particular game.

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This is basically my thoughts but I couldn't convey it as well as you.


I've tested SRB2 with several character that had the homing attack (like Neo Sonic for exemple), it was fun but still very weird to play, like if I played a Boost game with the insta-shield and the super peelout instead of the regular boost.

Perhaps one possible compromise could be a sort of "mode toggle" Sonic can perform that switches his air ability back and forth between Thok and Air Thrust on the fly? It would require use of a third button to avoid confliction, but it would allow the player to decide on a moment by moment basis whether they want to prioritize the Thok's precision or the Air Thrust's mobility, or even entirely use one or the other depending on their playstyle. This preserves Sonic's thok playstyle for veterans while giving Sonic utility that makes him more accessible to newbies, meanwhile allowing the player regardless of experience to make use of the full moveset as they see fit.

Alternatively if the two moves seem too similar to justify a mode toggle, could just swap out the Air Thrust for the Double Jump since it's also quite easy to understand.

If you're looking to tweak the thok slightly to make it better then probably the only thing I can ask for is to do something with the "thok always shooting where the camera is facing" (this was probably already mentioned). This statement is one big lie because the camera becomes incredibly unreliable when you're near the walls or moving in any direction other than forward. It's probably an unreasonable request, but still.

giving Metal the thok and turning him into "oldsonic"

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Almost everyone wins except for the people who like Metal's current moveset

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I guess no one bothered reading my remark that combining thok with Metal's boostmode would basically result in a "Metal FSonic".

Can this thread be locked already?

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I would say it's worthwhile to keep the thread going for as long as there is interest.

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The interest in this thread is going to last until 2.3 or even longer. All I can see now is more and more people trying to justify either homing or dropdash only to be told again why are these abilities nowhere near as good as they were in the original games. The room for "improvement of this discussion" is so little that keeping this thread open may be pointless.

How about instead of now all coming out of the woodwork to beg for thread locks we just actively stop talking about the bad options and going in circles over them? If it locks, there goes all discussion on the matter and then either A) nothing changes and the root problem of new player frustration remains, or B) the devs will have to make changes without receiving any constructive feedback about it which would probably upset even more people.

I want the flawed suggestions out of the way entirely. For starters, never mention the homing attack again in any context. Before you consider repeating it again, consider this list of flaws I've noticed in all my time doing character scripting or playing with mods:

• Overlaps with the attraction shield
• Getting the homing attack when you just wanted the air dash
• Will more often than not have you flying towards something that will hit you before you can hit them
• Inconsistent in where it'll hit enemies, either from the top or the side which actually matters in this game
• Serves no purpose in platforming that basic movement already does since it doesn't go upward
• Targets things behind walls causing it to get stuck or zoom toward the floor
• Targets TNT and mines by default
• Kills momentum, often requiring it to be chained or for you to use the air dash immediately after just to keep the flow going
• Only serves a purpose in enemy combat, something you can actually ignore a lot of the time in this game
• Can target things off to your sides where you can't see and won't know it's doing that, making you feel robbed of your control over the character unfairly

The thok as it is right now is at least functional and consistent. Bad for newbies still, yes, but does the homing attack actually look any better? I like this ability in other Sonic games but those were designed from the ground up with this in mind. It can't ever be implemented as a base ability without requiring extensive fixes in its design and in the layout of stages so that it's useful and not detrimental.

How about we also stay away from suggestions requiring a toggle or a second button aside from Jump to activate? If that doesn't sound fair, there's a lovely headache of a character that released rather recently that'll throw your muscle memory for a loop trying to play them. And that's for people who are used to this game. Good luck trying to remember inputs if you just installed. Similarly, nothing that situationally changes based on enemies or if you have a shield. If you press the button, it should activate just the one ability. And no systematic extra third button changes either, some people are still playing this game on twinstick setups or are just lacking in comfortable places to put extra inputs.

And also, can we not just complain about the idea of Sonic not having the thok? You can beat this game in anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or two casually, and then you'll have unlocked the new Metal Sonic who will have it and not dash mode. You'll have to play something aside from thok Sonic for exactly one playthrough and then you can go back to normal gameplay-wise. That's nothing.



The goal here is to make it so that Sonic, like the other two characters available at the same time as him, will be easier to play for people playing SRB2 for the first time. The classic games weren't much harder if you were playing as Sonic over Tails or Knuckles and most people were comfortable with it. Sonic should be similarly comfortable here. People are using partner Tails to fly over anything that looks hard? How about instead of nerfing flight call and putting nothing back in, we give Sonic a thok replacement that will make people confident enough in their platforming skills to not rely on Tails assist?

I've given Cobalt's jump thrust a try again, as well as trying out Krabs' ability rework script that released recently. Tried them both on a handful of my more favorite stages in vanilla. I like the thrust parts, it's a good basis for a double jump that can be used as a corrective ability. I don't think they go high enough to convey much in the way of safety, at least for a newer player. And Krabs' version can occasionally thrust too far to the sides and start to become more of a source of mistakes rather than a means of recovering from them. And Cobalt's jump thrust sort of loses its aid at higher speeds or on smaller platforms as it changes how Sonic handles in mid air a bit too much. I think a good thok replacement should properly feel like it wants to help in basic platforming by giving you a vertical boost, while also having that thrust so if you slip up or are about to fall, you can likely push yourself somewhere safe with it without needing to swing the camera around or something. But that thrust shouldn't fundamentally change Sonic's handling.

Crum said:

How about we also stay away from suggestions requiring a toggle or a second button aside from Jump to activate? If that doesn't sound fair, there's a lovely headache of a character that released rather recently that'll throw your muscle memory for a loop trying to play them. And that's for people who are used to this game. Good luck trying to remember inputs if you just installed. Similarly, nothing that situationally changes based on enemies or if you have a shield. If you press the button, it should activate just the one ability. And no systematic extra third button changes either, some people are still playing this game on twinstick setups or are just lacking in comfortable places to put extra inputs.

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It's pretty obvious you are referring to SMS, and I would hardly call that a fair comparison to a three button system. SMS is easily a 5 or 6 button system character, making use of all three custom buttons and ring toss in addition to the standard jump and spin. A three button system wouldn't require anything outlandish for people in their control setups.

For example, say on keyboard you have jump on spacebar and spin on z. You could easily put button 3 on x and you have all three buttons comfortably in reach of a single hand. On a dualshock 4 you could have jump on X, Spin on Circle, and Button 3 on Square. On an Xbox One controller you could have Jump on A, Spin on B, and Button 3 on X, etc. Again, all comfortably within reach of the hand.

If we're arguing literal control setup now, then I'll say I don't have a good spot to put a third button. When I use a controller, I use both analog sticks, the right bumper for jump, and the left bumper for spin. And... that's it. The triggers don't work properly with SRB2, and I don't use Simple so I can't take my thumb off the right analog stick.

So yeah. No third button please.

Unknownlight said:

If we're arguing literal control setup now, then I'll say I don't have a good spot to put a third button. When I use a controller, I use both analog sticks, the right bumper for jump, and the left bumper for spin. And... that's it. The triggers don't work properly with SRB2, and I don't use Simple so I can't take my thumb off the right analog stick.

So yeah. No third button please.

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You're using analog for camera controls? That sounds horridly inaccurate. Also you don't have face buttons?

It's the default gamepad control scheme. And no, when you use the right analog for camera, using Standard, you can't use the face buttons comfortably.

Unknownlight said:

It's the default gamepad control scheme. And no, when you use the right analog for camera, using Standard, you can't use the face buttons comfortably.

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I feel the exact opposite about it. When I'm using my controller I can't live without my face buttons. I have L1 and R1 set to turn the camera left and right, left analog and the D-pad for motion, and the face buttons for my other controls. I do have right analog mapped to camera as well but I never use it because it feels terrible in SRB2 to me.

Sure, but this is an entirely other argument now. Your point was that a 3-button setup wouldn't result in change to people's existing controls. Well... the default gamepad controls, which I use and am used to, would need to be completely thrown out the window to accommodate a third button.

Unknownlight said:

Sure, but this is an entirely other argument now. Your point was that a 3-button setup wouldn't result in change to people's existing controls. Well... the default gamepad controls, which I use and am used to, would need to be completely thrown out the window to accommodate a third button.

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Honestly all they would have to do is fix the way the game uses the trigger buttons to work correctly and there would be plenty of buttons even with your preferred scheme.