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Old 08-17-2016   #1
Sapheros
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Default A question no one cares to answer.

Yesterday, I've witnessed an entire SRB2-related forum become destroyed by "guests" or people that didn't like what was on that site. It's a mess, and while I know why they may have attacked it, (and I'm not releasing names or ideas of names of any type.) one topic created by a random guest has completely struck me with a question: Why do people hate OCs?

Now before you quickly think that it's a very stupid question, I'll let you know what answers I know about it.

  1. They make no sense at all.
  2. They just look bad.
  3. The person clearly doesn't want to put work into their OCs.
I understand this, but I want you to think of this: What do you think the person that made the OC was thinking? It's another question no one cares to answer because 1: You don't know what they're thinking, or 2: You might not care about what they were thinking.


But think about this: You are a socially awkward person, you don't have that many friends to talk to because you just flat out can't talk correctly, or you're from a different country altogether. You are a fan of a franchise that you have loved since you were young/really young. You would go on to make your own character, inspired by that franchise you love, you treated it like your child, your most prized possession, until you came across the internet. You try to join a group related to the franchise you love, and try to fit in with the crowd. You would show them your character you've created, and in no time, strong criticism is striking your heart like a hammer, because the character that you thought you put so much effort into had to be changed or destroyed. Your heart sinks on the inside because you've gotten your first opinion on it. Your peers would expect you to change it, to try something new, or to stop and leave it to the ether of your imagination, but you don't. You refuse to change something you love to please your peers around you, or in some cases, you don't have a backup plan. You begin to ignore them, denying their opinions on you and your character, leaving you to be alone once more. Fast forward a few months, and you try to publish your character on a website to feature content, nothing has changed since you first created it, and the rest of the world destroys you with criticism, memes, and pure rejection. You try to stay strong to what you love, refusing to change it. From then on, you became a punchline in your favorite community, bashed on for not making the effort you should have made, and forever keeping that reputation for the rest of your hobby as a fan of a franchise.


This may be true for someone out there, but I want you to feel what that OC maker could be feeling. No one has a plan B when their ideas on a character don't come out correctly to the public, and I would know- My OC, Duon, is nothing more than a punchline in the SRB2 community (and apparently the name of a boss in SSBB). It was a stickman that had a melee fighting human girl and a white pencil eraser as his friends, he lived on a planet called Green Land and fought a evil doctor named Dr. White. Since I was 12 years old, I stuck to that character, and when I approached the SRB2 community with it, I was laughed at, criticized, and bashed beyond all belief, and I didn't know what to fall back on to feel like a "somebody". It took me till November of 2015 that I decided to scrap this character, he was useless to me and the peers around me kept trying to pierce that into my skull, until I realized they were right.



What I'm saying is that despite how childish people who make their OCs act, they're trying to fit in, and rejecting an OC based on looks and ideas is unfair. That's like rejecting people of a certain country just because of what they believe in, and nothing else like culture or childhood raising. We already have big names doing things like this, like Donald Trump (I'm not going into this man because he is a whole different subject I willl never go into.) The next time you see another bad OC, ask yourself, "What were they thinking?" If you can't answer it, don't bother bashing that OC.


I am just speaking on my mind right now, it's just something that I really wanted to say, so sorry not sorry if you don't care, because I do.
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Old 08-17-2016   #2
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Sigh.

I did see someone link the forum you're probably talking about in 'fun, but I was hoping that people wouldn't be colossal jerks and ruin kids' harmless fun just because it's not palatable to them. Our community is like a militarised checkpoint when it comes to kids who might not have all their shit together or know how to spell properly, and that is the perfect way to kill this community dead in the long run, and it's even worse when it goes out looking for a fight.

I am in favour of OCs, even if I don't personally like many of them. People who want to express themselves in a way that doesn't harm themselves or others should be appreciated, not mocked, even if the result is cringeworthy because we "know better" than to make Sonic But Purple The Hedgechidna. I DO agree with the establishment view that if they so choose to render the characters in .wad or .md2 form they shouldn't get through releases without a high degree of effort, but that's basically irrelevant for this topic since we're talking about the policing of OCs as concepts, whereas we have the duty to be selective in what we host (server bandwith...)

Most of us are adults, guys. That means we shouldn't mess around with kids at an emotionally vulnerable time in their lives. You wanna prove you're better than them out of some misguided sense of failing self worth? The way to do it is to be more emotionally mature than them and not shit on their fun. And if you just think messing with them is funny and you'd do it again in a heartbeat? Step forward so I know who to shame.

(that said duon don't compare having a fan character to being racially discriminated against, that's pretty What)
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Old 08-17-2016   #3
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Hm

I mostly only hate OCs because they remind me of how much of a edgelord I used to be (like, 3 years ago. I'm only 14 help). And not the meme kind either

That aside, no one should be making fun of these kids for having these cringy OCs. Duon says his was bad, but I still remember 'Phil the hedgehog' from when I was 8 roughly.
He was a red sonic with purple irises and those shadow streaks, but in cool alternating patterns of blue and black. Also he wore a shirt and had a sin and used 'dark fire'(purple fire), aka, a sin. I did change him, if only to be edgier and seem more original while still being a fancharacter (the word 'hedgehuman' should be enough to cue understanding)

Uh

I could go in depth but basically it was bad. I still don't run around making fun of people with those OCs, because I remember having the sensibilities and mindset of that sort of child myself

I was going for something here but I think I forgot
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Old 08-17-2016   #4
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
whereas we have the duty to be selective in what we host (server bandwith...)
Please do not worry about server bandwidth, that is my job.....
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Old 08-17-2016   #5
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I mean, to be honest, I hate like 95% of the Sonic OCs I see out there, because that percentage of kids are people who roam deviantART, just steal other people's sprites for the sake of giving it pants and accessories to make it resemble their OC, are hard headed to criticism, and want to see their OC in every game possible, interacting with Sonic like they are his friend/rival/whatever. It has become very excessive and repetitive over the years.

Are people who make OCs discriminated? Pfff, no. They had the choice to make an OC, and if people think it sucks, that's more likely on them. Cringeworthy? Very, yes, but I still know how to mind my own about it, because most of those kids will eventually grow out of it, look back at what they made in the past, and think "oh my god, I was so stupid back then".

Going out of your way to harass kids who are just minding their own and vandalize their forum with tasteless pictures is an unspeakably scumbag thing to do.
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Old 08-17-2016   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
Yesterday, I've witnessed an entire SRB2-related forum become destroyed by "guests" or people that didn't like what was on that site. It's a mess, and while I know why they may have attacked it, (and I'm not releasing names or ideas of names of any type.) one topic created by a random guest has completely struck me with a question: Why do people hate OCs?
It'd be a little helpful to define what you mean when you say "OC". If by "OC" you mean recolor, then everything you've said applies. But if all you mean by "OC" is an original character inspired by the Sonic universe, then there are some problems with your base assumption, because not all OCs garner hatred. A very good example of an OC we've embraced was Hinote, which for a while was heralded as one of the nicest looking character wads on the MB. Speedwagon's Inazuma may be fairly uninspired from an aesthetic perspective, but it's still put to a fairly high standard not in the least due to its strong spritework as well as its unique gameplay modifications.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that people hate most OCs because as Sturgeon's Law would dictate, 90% of them are bad. The core concept of an OC is not unsalvageable, but 90% of the time it needs improvement.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that despite how childish people who make their OCs act, they're trying to fit in, and rejecting an OC based on looks and ideas is unfair. That's like rejecting people of a certain country just because of what they believe in, and nothing else like culture or childhood raising. We already have big names doing things like this, like Donald Trump (I'm not going into this man because he is a whole different subject I willl never go into.) The next time you see another bad OC, ask yourself, "What were they thinking?" If you can't answer it, don't bother bashing that OC.
I understand your request, but it's a little problematic because some of the logic is faulty.

I'm sure there are a few times where a user has slipped up and personally attacked the creator, but generally when anyone critiques a creation, they are attacking the substance of the creation and nothing else. Since we're doing real world analogies: This is like saying "god isn't real" or "feminism is toxic" is an attack on those who subscribe to an ideology, when all it is is a critique of the idea itself. You or someone else may feel offended because you have an emotional attachment to those ideas, but it's important to remember that they aren't attacking you as a person. You are not your ideas.

You may already know all of that -- but I think your bigger point is that most people don't. I don't know if there is an easy solution to this, but I think there are a few behaviors we could cultivate to try and facilitate new members:

* When it comes to user-created content, generally we're good at detecting problems, but not as good at addressing how to fix them. I think this gets to the heart of your complaint, because it's useful to have those problems pointed out, but not if there isn't anything you can do about them. On more than one occasion I've considered editing someone's map to show them how they can make their level more interesting; I haven't due to time constraints, but I don't think we should be afraid of more hands-on approaches like this when doing critiques.

* I've talked in 'fun before on the subject of how the forums are overmoderated, and I think that has a negative impact on the community. Not every post that has some form of text garble or childish eccentricity needs a strike in bold red caps and a private message, and for the most part I think it justs intimidates and puts pressure on new users. I mean, I get that we don't want every 11yo Shadow fan shitting up the forum with broken English, but most of the time it's made out to be a bigger deal than it really is.

* We need more areas for sandboxing. SUGOI is a really good step in the right direction. Similar projects, maybe even similar forums, could help grow this sandbox.
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Old 08-17-2016   #7
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I could swear we've had several threads along the lines of "what's wrong with recolors/OCs?????" before, so it feels like we're repeating history once again with arguing as to why people don't like them or should be more lenient with them, quite honestly.

Now, considering what apparently started this discussion, it must be said: attacking other forums in general is a really stupid thing to be doing, and obviously any sensible person would not support that kind of behaviour regardless of whether the victim forums were filled with recolors or OCs or furries or whatever. Even if various people in this community don't like recolors/OCs, I should hope most of them wouldn't stoop to that low just to have a laugh at those who have them.
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Old 08-17-2016   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
Why do people hate OCs?
Because they're inherently unoriginal. Let's divorce this argument from Sonic for a bit so it makes more sense. Let's say we have a franchise named "A" which has been running for some time. Over time, the people who run A have created a lot of works, including games, TV shows, and the like, creating and removing characters as they like, while still keeping the staple cast.

A fan decides he wants to write fanfiction in A's universe. Instead of drawing from the deep well of lore that A already has, he decides he wants to be "original" and creates his own character to add to the cast. This leads to the author creating a character inherently similar to the characters that are already there. This is what leads to recolors and characters with altered clothing. Essentially, editing one of the official characters to suit the authors' interests. This creates a character that is inherently derivative but does at least sorta fit in with the lore. This is what people tend to refer to as "fan characters".

The problem is that by definition, this type of character design is derivative. You're starting from a point and trying to fit into the model. Even characters with legitimate effort put into them fall into this. No matter how much the author tries, his character will stick out like a sore thumb to anyone with any familiarity with the franchise. Even without some terrible back story and extra spiky hair, there's just no real point to such a character other than to serve the author's satisfaction in creating it.

Now, this isn't to say that there isn't a way to be creative in character creation, but the method is to create your OWN story with all of your OWN characters instead of writing fanfiction. The reason "original character do not steal" is such a running joke is that fan characters are by definition not original.
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Old 08-17-2016   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
Yesterday, I've witnessed an entire SRB2-related forum become destroyed by "guests" or people that didn't like what was on that site. It's a mess, and while I know why they may have attacked it, (and I'm not releasing names or ideas of names of any type.) one topic created by a random guest has completely struck me with a question: Why do people hate OCs?

Now before you quickly think that it's a very stupid question, I'll let you know what answers I know about it.

  1. They make no sense at all.
  2. They just look bad.
  3. The person clearly doesn't want to put work into their OCs.
I understand this, but I want you to think of this: What do you think the person that made the OC was thinking? It's another question no one cares to answer because 1: You don't know what they're thinking, or 2: You might not care about what they were thinking.


But think about this: You are a socially awkward person, you don't have that many friends to talk to because you just flat out can't talk correctly, or you're from a different country altogether. You are a fan of a franchise that you have loved since you were young/really young. You would go on to make your own character, inspired by that franchise you love, you treated it like your child, your most prized possession, until you came across the internet. You try to join a group related to the franchise you love, and try to fit in with the crowd. You would show them your character you've created, and in no time, strong criticism is striking your heart like a hammer, because the character that you thought you put so much effort into had to be changed or destroyed. Your heart sinks on the inside because you've gotten your first opinion on it. Your peers would expect you to change it, to try something new, or to stop and leave it to the ether of your imagination, but you don't. You refuse to change something you love to please your peers around you, or in some cases, you don't have a backup plan. You begin to ignore them, denying their opinions on you and your character, leaving you to be alone once more. Fast forward a few months, and you try to publish your character on a website to feature content, nothing has changed since you first created it, and the rest of the world destroys you with criticism, memes, and pure rejection. You try to stay strong to what you love, refusing to change it. From then on, you became a punchline in your favorite community, bashed on for not making the effort you should have made, and forever keeping that reputation for the rest of your hobby as a fan of a franchise.


This may be true for someone out there, but I want you to feel what that OC maker could be feeling. No one has a plan B when their ideas on a character don't come out correctly to the public, and I would know- My OC, Duon, is nothing more than a punchline in the SRB2 community (and apparently the name of a boss in SSBB). It was a stickman that had a melee fighting human girl and a white pencil eraser as his friends, he lived on a planet called Green Land and fought a evil doctor named Dr. White. Since I was 12 years old, I stuck to that character, and when I approached the SRB2 community with it, I was laughed at, criticized, and bashed beyond all belief, and I didn't know what to fall back on to feel like a "somebody". It took me till November of 2015 that I decided to scrap this character, he was useless to me and the peers around me kept trying to pierce that into my skull, until I realized they were right.



What I'm saying is that despite how childish people who make their OCs act, they're trying to fit in, and rejecting an OC based on looks and ideas is unfair. That's like rejecting people of a certain country just because of what they believe in, and nothing else like culture or childhood raising. We already have big names doing things like this, like Donald Trump (I'm not going into this man because he is a whole different subject I willl never go into.) The next time you see another bad OC, ask yourself, "What were they thinking?" If you can't answer it, don't bother bashing that OC.


I am just speaking on my mind right now, it's just something that I really wanted to say, so sorry not sorry if you don't care, because I do.
I can see were your going and i too think that you can never judge a OC from just how it looks and I too have a OC that people judge like a mutant but even tho its a fox with spikes.Therefor you have no right to base something on its looks. :)


Btw i have a hell load of OCs but these are my 2 that i support the most
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Old 08-21-2016   #10
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I made myself sad a month back when I realized fancharacters are starting to go extinct in all the spheres I'm still active in, along with sprite comics, hoaxes, roleplay, signature banners, and all the trappings of late 90s-early 00s web culture that made the Sonic community such a vibrant (albeit embarrassing) place to be when I was a kid. I don't blame people for wanting to immerse themselves deeper into the worlds they love. I don't think it should be discouraged either, since it still counts as a creative outlet for people- I originally wanted to learn Photoshop because I wanted to make sprite comics like all the cool dudes on fireball20XL. Now I do graphic design for a living. The kids are growing, don't mess with them.

Not that I want to be involved, mind you
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Old 08-22-2016   #11
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I'm trying to make some sense of what you're actually asking because it seems like you're going on a massive rant instead of addressing an actual point, so instead of breaking down every single line, I'm going to try and address some of the things I think are problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
Yesterday, I've witnessed an entire SRB2-related forum become destroyed by "guests" or people that didn't like what was on that site. It's a mess, and while I know why they may have attacked it, (and I'm not releasing names or ideas of names of any type.) one topic created by a random guest has completely struck me with a question: Why do people hate OCs?
First and foremost, I consider organized raids detestable and I would recommend that any evidence you have that an organized raid happened through official SRB2 community spaces be passed onto the staff. Me, in particular, if you're not comfortable with talking with anyone else. I take these types of things very seriously. Note, however, that emphasis is placed on the word organized, and I can't (and won't) take action against people who are acting purely on their own initiative.

Having said that, you are conflating issues that you should not be conflating. The way you are presenting this is that the raid is in relation to the existence of people who make recolors. You are ignoring any other possibilities that exist here by doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
But think about this: You are a socially awkward person, you don't have that many friends to talk to because you just flat out can't talk correctly, or you're from a different country altogether. You are a fan of a franchise that you have loved since you were young/really young. You would go on to make your own character, inspired by that franchise you love, you treated it like your child, your most prized possession, until you came across the internet. You try to join a group related to the franchise you love, and try to fit in with the crowd. You would show them your character you've created, and in no time, strong criticism is striking your heart like a hammer, because the character that you thought you put so much effort into had to be changed or destroyed. Your heart sinks on the inside because you've gotten your first opinion on it. Your peers would expect you to change it, to try something new, or to stop and leave it to the ether of your imagination, but you don't. You refuse to change something you love to please your peers around you, or in some cases, you don't have a backup plan. You begin to ignore them, denying their opinions on you and your character, leaving you to be alone once more. Fast forward a few months, and you try to publish your character on a website to feature content, nothing has changed since you first created it, and the rest of the world destroys you with criticism, memes, and pure rejection. You try to stay strong to what you love, refusing to change it. From then on, you became a punchline in your favorite community, bashed on for not making the effort you should have made, and forever keeping that reputation for the rest of your hobby as a fan of a franchise.
Rule #1 of joining any community is gaining an understanding of basics of how that community functions. You don't get to go ahead and say on the one hand "Socially awkward person joins a community while going against the community standards" and on the other hand say "Said person does not have any responsibility for how the community would react to how that person behaves." You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Either one of the statements made can be true. But that also means that the other statement is not true. You don't get to apply personal agency and then rescind it because the results of the use of that agency are not what you may have wanted. Either someone can join a community, ignore its standards, and accept the natural consequences of doing so, or they can go in, at least try to follow the community standards, and then say "I am not responsible for how the community reacts and I am just not a good fit." Those are your options. Your scenario is an unreasonable set of standards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
This may be true for someone out there, but I want you to feel what that OC maker could be feeling. No one has a plan B when their ideas on a character don't come out correctly to the public, and I would know- My OC, Duon, is nothing more than a punchline in the SRB2 community (and apparently the name of a boss in SSBB). It was a stickman that had a melee fighting human girl and a white pencil eraser as his friends, he lived on a planet called Green Land and fought a evil doctor named Dr. White. Since I was 12 years old, I stuck to that character, and when I approached the SRB2 community with it, I was laughed at, criticized, and bashed beyond all belief, and I didn't know what to fall back on to feel like a "somebody". It took me till November of 2015 that I decided to scrap this character, he was useless to me and the peers around me kept trying to pierce that into my skull, until I realized they were right.
This is going to sound cold, and I know it's going to draw a lot of ire, but the harsh reality of the situation is that the feelings of content creators don't matter when talking about the value of the content itself. The reality of the situation is that if something is junk and valueless, nothing is gained in trying to make it sound as though that something might have some redeemable merit. Your emotional investment is not relevant to the objective value of that work. Now, if you want to stick with claiming value to said thing, that is entirely your prerogative. However, the natural consequences of that also become part of your responsibility, you are obligated to accept that people will consider your position unreasonable and silly. Nobody is going to have your emotional investment, and more importantly, your emotional investment is largely going to be irrelevant to anyone else. You don't get to divorce cause and effect here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duon the Adventurer View Post
What I'm saying is that despite how childish people who make their OCs act, they're trying to fit in, and rejecting an OC based on looks and ideas is unfair. That's like rejecting people of a certain country just because of what they believe in, and nothing else like culture or childhood raising. We already have big names doing things like this, like Donald Trump (I'm not going into this man because he is a whole different subject I willl never go into.) The next time you see another bad OC, ask yourself, "What were they thinking?" If you can't answer it, don't bother bashing that OC.
Again, you're wrong. What someone was thinking is not relevant to the quality and value of the content. The emotional investment of the creator is irrelevant to anyone evaluating the actual merits of the content in question. Now to go a step further, you actually go ahead and tell people to ignore the things that actually matter to content that is being reviewed, that being the visuals and the basic ideas and concepts behind the execution. You are actively telling people to ignore the relevant factors for reviewing content and telling them that only the feelings behind it matter. I'm sorry, but the reality is, again, that the feelings of the author don't matter when we are talking about the merits of the work itself.

This is an absurd position to take. I'm not saying that someone's feelings don't matter in the abstract, and as a general statement I would rather people be happy doing what they are doing. But when we are talking about evaluating content, especially content that people in the community are expected to review and evaluate, then people are going to have to set aside their feelings and accept criticism about their works, whether or not they like what it is that is being said.

Last edited by Rob; 08-22-2016 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 08-22-2016   #12
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I originally wanted to learn Photoshop because I wanted to make sprite comics like all the cool dudes on fireball20XL.
oh hey me too

god damn, I haven't heard that website's name in forever
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Old 11-14-2016   #13
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I used to have OCs. Gotta be honest sometimes I miss that time of my life. Was a lot more innocent and carefree back then.
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Old 11-17-2016   #14
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I believe the problem with OC's is that the Sonic Universe in particular as well as the Sonic fandom make it very difficult to make an OC. So much as using the same species as a main character automatically gets them branded as a recolor, even if they have a well thought out past that does not connect or interact with the official characters at all.

I've seen it happen many times on multiple Sonic fan sites, many people even consider official characters made by Sega to be recolors, it's no wonder they have trouble making reasonable games with how finicky the fans are. I believe there was also an eye color complaint online not long ago when Sonic Generations was first shown.

For a lot of other fandoms it's like night and day compared to the Sonic one, I can't help but wonder if Sega's early marketing strategy fed into this notion during the 90s with the edgey style they were going for.

I'm not saying this to be mean or condescending, but many other fandoms consider the Sonic fandom the most toxic of all, the Undertale fandom being after that. That's why it's difficult for new fans to even join a Sonic site, and without new fans eventually it might wither and die just like the state of Kirby fan sites if things don't change.

This is just my observation based on what I've examined on multiple sites, obviously Sonic is not my main interest so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt, as it could contain misinformation.

To me it feels like the Sonic fandom is very self destructive with overly harsh tendencies, but that's just my personal opinion I can't say whether it's accurate or not.

Conforming to the community isn't really an option to a lot of people that's a quick way to kill off a community, and it brings an elitist attitude to the table, and that often drives many people away, saying everyone should conform is kinda like having your own circle that only the cool kids can get in, as derogatory as that sounds. I'm not sure how else to describe it.
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Old 11-17-2016   #15
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Originally Posted by Rissian Cloud View Post
Conforming to the community isn't really an option to a lot of people that's a quick way to kill off a community, and it brings an elitist attitude to the table, and that often drives many people away, saying everyone should conform is kinda like having your own circle that only the cool kids can get in, as derogatory as that sounds. I'm not sure how else to describe it.
What Sonic forums are you hanging around? There's no Sonic Cult anymore, things are chill.
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Old 11-17-2016   #16
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Originally Posted by Rissian Cloud View Post
I believe the problem with OC's is that the Sonic Universe in particular as well as the Sonic fandom make it very difficult to make an OC. So much as using the same species as a main character automatically gets them branded as a recolor, even if they have a well thought out past that does not connect or interact with the official characters at all.

I've seen it happen many times on multiple Sonic fan sites, many people even consider official characters made by Sega to be recolors, it's no wonder they have trouble making reasonable games with how finicky the fans are. I believe there was also an eye color complaint online not long ago when Sonic Generations was first shown.

For a lot of other fandoms it's like night and day compared to the Sonic one, I can't help but wonder if Sega's early marketing strategy fed into this notion during the 90s with the edgey style they were going for.

I'm not saying this to be mean or condescending, but many other fandoms consider the Sonic fandom the most toxic of all, the Undertale fandom being after that. That's why it's difficult for new fans to even join a Sonic site, and without new fans eventually it might wither and die just like the state of Kirby fan sites if things don't change.

This is just my observation based on what I've examined on multiple sites, obviously Sonic is not my main interest so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt, as it could contain misinformation.

To me it feels like the Sonic fandom is very self destructive with overly harsh tendencies, but that's just my personal opinion I can't say whether it's accurate or not.

Conforming to the community isn't really an option to a lot of people that's a quick way to kill off a community, and it brings an elitist attitude to the table, and that often drives many people away, saying everyone should conform is kinda like having your own circle that only the cool kids can get in, as derogatory as that sounds. I'm not sure how else to describe it.
Okay, here's the problem.

The Sonic "community" isn't a community. It's fragmented into several different groups of people who are into Sonic for different reasons. Some people are fans of the comics and the Saturday morning cartoon. Some are fans of the old games, and an even smaller subset are modders and hackers for the old games. Some are just a younger generation who are growing up with the new games. We're just an eclectic hodgepodge of individuals who like a certain ZDoom mod too much.

You keep referring to all of these individual subgroups as a whole, and in doing so you misunderstand the reason why the Sonic fanbase is insatiable. No single one of us is more picky than any other gamer who... er, "hails" from any other fandom. We simply have the most diverse set of desires. Some of us are kids and are associated with the Dreamcast and modern character rosters. Others are older, disillusioned, and just want to play a decent classic Sonic game without all this newer edgier bullshit with over-saturated plots and characters.

With Mega Man it's pretty simple. Make a classic Mega Man game or Legends 3 and people would be happy. Capcom can't even manage that. Imagine what kind of hole SEGA has driven themselves into with all of these completely different Sonic games with their drastically different tones, gameplay formulas, and quality control.



Frankly, I think the Sonic fanbase is not nearly as bad as it used to be. If anything I'd say the pony community had a greater level of toxicity when it was at its peak. (I still think the fanaticism it achieved is fuckin' stupid. But that's a dead horse I can beat some other time.)
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Old 11-17-2016   #17
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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
We're just an eclectic hodgepodge of individuals who like a certain ZDoom mod too much.
...Technically it's a mod of Doom Legacy. Not that it really detracts from the point you were making much at all.

EDIT: Mind you, Sonic Adventure is nearly 20 years old now (it came out in 1998 right? that was 18 years ago), which makes "modern" Sonic as we old people think of practically ancient now (in the grand scheme of video gaming, anyway). Really weird to think about it.
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Old 11-18-2016   #18
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...Technically it's a mod of Doom Legacy.
I've failed you all.

Anyway, I'm pretty much just here because this is my favorite modding community. I wouldn't even care if we rebranded this game into Mario Koopa Blast, or Jazz Jackrabbit 3D or some shit. Sometimes I think it's a shame we haven't tried making a commercial knockoff of SRB2 with our engine, but that's because I have slightly different values from a lot of other people here.
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Old 11-18-2016   #19
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Okay, here's the problem.
Frankly, I think the Sonic fanbase is not nearly as bad as it used to be. If anything I'd say the pony community had a greater level of toxicity when it was at its peak. (I still think the fanaticism it achieved is fuckin' stupid. But that's a dead horse I can beat some other time.)
I feel like you believe I'm attacking the Srb2 community for some reason, if so I'm sorry that's not my intention, but I could also be misunderstanding your post.

I won't ever deny that the pony community had its issues starting out, it's just sad that the minority of the pony community shouted the loudest during the early years. The majority of us just enjoy the show for what it is, a funny slice of life cartoon that doesn't treat the audience like they're stupid, which is why it appeals to different age ranges than the authors expected. Combine that with well written characters and it's no surprise to me why it succeeded.

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Okay, here's the problem.
With Mega Man it's pretty simple. Make a classic Mega Man game or Legends 3 and people would be happy. Capcom can't even manage that. Imagine what kind of hole Sega has driven themselves into with all of these completely different Sonic games with their drastically different tones, gameplay formulas, and quality control.

That is an interesting perspective I didn't think about, but it still doesn't change that the division into multiple groups will eventually end the series.

Unless that can be rectified I don't think SEGA will ever be able to win. A lot of what you mentioned is how the Sonic fans are different from say Zelda or Mario fans. I don't think any fans are divided into groups as much as the Sonic ones, like you said before with people preferring Classic Sonic over Modern Sonic, Comics and Cartoons over the games because of interests.

Another example to use is Nintendo, they seem to have a good head on their shoulders, they use a known formula and try to expand upon it rather than drastically change it. If I'm correct Mario fans seem to enjoy most if not all of the many genres the games have, aside from the whole Color Splash and Sticker Star debacle. The downside to Nintendo's formula is now and then they have to innovate or else it starts to stagnant.

Sega however is always trying to innovate constantly rather than build upon what they already have, which is what resulted in these multiple groups. I always feel like Sega is the underdog right now and eventually they'll make something with a wide appeal, but that's wishful thinking. I don't consider myself a Sonic fan because I don't take active part in the different groups, I did however enjoy both the cartoons and the games from what I have played and seen. So I'm rather confused why that fan division exists. I have assumptions, but those assumptions will likely be considered attacks despite that not being my intent at all.

I will also note that first and foremost, I am a gamer I enjoy many different series and their games. I would not be here, if I did not like and enjoy this fun mod you guys have created.

Last edited by Rissian Cloud; 11-18-2016 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 11-19-2016   #20
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Originally Posted by Rissian Cloud View Post
I feel like you believe I'm attacking the Srb2 community for some reason, if so I'm sorry that's not my intention, but I could also be misunderstanding your post.
I think the SRB2 community only came up once in my post. I'm referring to the Sonic 'community' at large. As Ritz has said, that edgy/elitist side of the fandom has been mostly relegated to a bygone era.

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I won't ever deny that the pony community had its issues starting out, it's just sad that the minority of the pony community shouted the loudest during the early years. The majority of us just enjoy the show for what it is, a funny slice of life cartoon that doesn't treat the audience like they're stupid, which is why it appeals to different age ranges than the authors expected. Combine that with well written characters and it's no surprise to me why it succeeded.
Well in any fandom it's almost always the minority that's a problem. My point wasn't to target the MLP community, just that the Sonic community isn't really at the bottom of the barrel... at least not anymore, anyway.

Quote:
That is an interesting perspective I didn't think about, but it still doesn't change that the division into multiple groups will eventually end the series.

Unless that can be rectified I don't think SEGA will ever be able to win. A lot of what you mentioned is how the Sonic fans are different from say Zelda or Mario fans. I don't think any fans are divided into groups as much as the Sonic ones, like you said before with people preferring Classic Sonic over Modern Sonic, Comics and Cartoons over the games because of interests.

Another example to use is Nintendo, they seem to have a good head on their shoulders, they use a known formula and try to expand upon it rather than drastically change it. If I'm correct Mario fans seem to enjoy most if not all of the many genres the games have, aside from the whole Color Splash and Sticker Star debacle. The downside to Nintendo's formula is now and then they have to innovate or else it starts to stagnant.

Sega however is always trying to innovate constantly rather than build upon what they already have, which is what resulted in these multiple groups. I always feel like Sega is the underdog right now and eventually they'll make something with a wide appeal, but that's wishful thinking. I don't consider myself a Sonic fan because I don't take active part in the different groups, I did however enjoy both the cartoons and the games from what I have played and seen. So I'm rather confused why that fan division exists. I have assumptions, but those assumptions will likely be considered attacks despite that not being my intent at all.

I will also note that first and foremost, I am a gamer I enjoy many different series and their games. I would not be here, if I did not like and enjoy this fun mod you guys have created.
High diversity isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just that as a developer you have to know how to appeal to each subgroup. The 2D Marios, 3D Marios, Mario RPGs, and sports/party games are all pretty clearly defined sets of games, but Sonic games haven't been distinguished in the same manner. With the exception of the sports games, it's just one mainline Sonic game with a different formula right after another. Being able to categorize these games into different lineups would be a huge boon to SEGA, i.e. "Classic, Adventure, Modern"; gamers would know exactly what to expect if the games were appropriately marketed as a part of said lineup, resulting in better player feedback and more consumer confidence, ergo higher long term sales.
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