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Old 05-13-2012   #1
MellowJacket
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Default Single player collab discussion thread

Use this topic to discuss the collab in general, from project direction to anything you want changed, or even suggestions that aren't important enough to warrent a post in the submission topic.

But first order of business, we need new names for Blue Lagoon + Zany Ziggurat, Cloudy Domain + Heavenly Tower and Cryronic City + Frost Factory.
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Old 05-13-2012   #2
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For Blue Lagoon + Zany Ziggurat, I'd just go with "Zany Ziggurat". For Cryonic City + Frost Factory, the idea behind the merger was that Cryonic City would be the first half of the first act. Then the player would enter the factory, which would continue in act 2. If we do that, it would make sense to retain the "Frost Factory" name. Alternatively, I can imagine a scenario where instead of one continuous factory, there would be several smaller factories broken up by city-themed rooms. In that case, "Cryonic City" would make more sense.

For Cloudy Domain/Heavenly Tower, I don't know.
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Old 05-13-2012   #3
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Originally Posted by Whackjood
But first order of business, we need new names for Blue Lagoon + Zany Ziggurat, Cloudy Domain + Heavenly Tower and Cryronic City + Frost Factory.
I agree with SpiritCrusher's ideas about Blue Lagoon + Zany Ziggurat and Cryonic City + Frost Factory. I would prefer the 'factory broken up by city-themed areas' for the latter.

For Cloudy Domain/Heavenly Tower:
Stratosphere Spire perhaps? (I first thought of Stratosphere Tower, but apparently that name was used for a level 8 years ago...)
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Old 05-13-2012   #4
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Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
Occasionally, the projectile will kill the player. I'm not sure why that happens.
My guess is that you gave MF_MISSILE to the projectile, and that it sometimes doesn't disappear quickly enough, making the player collide into it and get hurt/die. Giving it MF_NOCLIPTHING should fix the problem.
On another note, I think that basing it on a THZ turret (That would shoot only one projectile, of course) would be the best. Making the object play a sound when it reverses the player's gravity would be nice, too.
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Old 05-13-2012   #5
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My guess is that you gave MF_MISSILE to the projectile, and that it sometimes doesn't disappear quickly enough, making the player collide into it and get hurt/die.
That's exactly what I did and that's my guess too. I assume the problem happens when the projectile hits the player before spotting him. The projectile moves at 10 FU/tic and looks for a target every other tic. The target must be within a range of 64 FU for the projectile to spot the player. When a target is found, all the other things (including removing the MF_MISSILE flag) are done instantly. So the projectile would have to travel more than 64 FU in two tics, which it shouldn't be doing.

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Giving it MF_NOCLIPTHING should fix the problem.
I tried that. Unfortunately, it stops the missile from exploding when it hits a wall, so it just gets stuck upon hitting a wall. Apparently, the flag makes the missile intangible to walls too, which it isn't supposed to do.

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Making the object play a sound when it reverses the player's gravity would be nice, too.
I think it does play a sound, which is the missile's default explosion sound for now.


Also, I updated the SOC and test WAD to include two copies of the turret. One for reverse gravity and one for normal gravity. You can redownload it from my post above.
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Old 05-13-2012   #6
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I am completely and entirely happy about every map chosen~

I too believe we should go with Zany Ziggurat Zone. I mean really, ZZZ? We can't pass that down. Cryonic City sounds fine. As for Heavenly Tower...

Cloudy Castle Zone
Heavenly Horizons Zone

...Wow, for once I can't think of any more names. At least, not ones that alliterate.
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Old 05-13-2012   #7
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Also note that it uses a Boss Waypoint placed directly in front of it to reset its angle after throwing, so that should be included whenever it is placed on a map.
Wouldn't it be easier if your enemy spawns the helper object itself in its SpawnState? That would remove the need to place a helper object on the map and make it easier for the mapper.
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Old 05-13-2012   #8
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Honestly, I'm not quite sure if I should post this in this thread or the discussion one. If you feel it is in an inappropriate place, just move it.

I'm not exactly claiming Gravity Garden Act 1. I'm just making two rooms, both of which use Simsmagic's gimmick in different ways. I might do more after that, but I have a bit of my heart set on working on Honeyhive Zone more than anything else. So if anyone else has their heart set on working on Gravity Garden, that's perfectly okay.

But on the other hand, my mind is starting to run with Gravity Garden, thematically at least. I can't envision the rest of the gimmicks nearly as well as Whackjood has planned them out, though.
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Last edited by Charybdizs; 05-13-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 05-13-2012   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
Alternatively, I can imagine a scenario where instead of one continuous factory, there would be several smaller factories broken up by city-themed rooms.
Actually, that's what I was imagining the level to be like pre-merge.

Blade and I agreed on the former "first part of act 1 is the city" so unless someone other than Blade claims the level that's probably how it's going to be, so I'd go with Frost Factory.

Also, I'd probably switch Honeyhive and Frost Factory on the zone order.

Speaking of Honeyhive, it needs a new name so we don't have two HHZs.

As for Cloudy Domain + Heavenly Tower, I'd just go with Cloudy Domain.

Last edited by Katmint; 05-13-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 05-13-2012   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
Wouldn't it be easier if your enemy spawns the helper object itself in its SpawnState? That would remove the need to place a helper object on the map and make it easier for the mapper.
The problem with that is that A_SpawnObjectRelative doesn't account for the angle of the actor, so the waypoint would always be spawned, say, to the east of the enemy, meaning that Coconuts could only face in that direction. A workaround for this would be making four different versions of the object, each spawning the waypoint in a different position relative to it (or not using the waypoint at all and just using A_ChangeAngleAbsolute), but that seems rather unnecessary to me. Besides, it isn't exactly difficult to place another object 32 fracunits in front of an existing one.
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Old 05-13-2012   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 742mph View Post
The problem with that is that A_SpawnObjectRelative doesn't account for the angle of the actor, so the waypoint would always be spawned, say, to the east of the enemy, meaning that Coconuts could only face in that direction.
Not neccessarily - just have the helper A_CapeChase the actor briefly after spawning to set it's angle to Coconuts's angle, and then it can stay at that angle the rest of the time.

Just make sure Coconuts doesn't start looking and attacking and so on until the helper's angle is set to the right place first.
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Old 05-13-2012   #12
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Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
For Cloudy Domain/Heavenly Tower, I don't know.
I'd just call it Heavenly Domain Zone, but whatever works.
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Old 05-13-2012   #13
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Speaking of Honeyhive, it needs a new name so we don't have two HHZs.
It seems to me that Haunted House is the one that's in need of a name change. I would recommend something along the lines of Desolate Mansion or Mystical Halls.
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Old 05-13-2012   #14
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It seems to me that Haunted House is the one that's in need of a name change. I would recommend something along the lines of Desolate Mansion or Mystical Halls.
Except that Haunted House Zone isn't a mansion - it's a castle.

That, and I'm perfectly fine with Haunted House Zone's name here anyway. =(
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Old 05-13-2012   #15
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Originally Posted by Monster Iestyn View Post
Not neccessarily - just have the helper A_CapeChase the actor briefly after spawning to set it's angle to Coconuts's angle, and then it can stay at that angle the rest of the time.

Just make sure Coconuts doesn't start looking and attacking and so on until the helper's angle is set to the right place first.
Unfortunately, A_CapeChase's position offsets don't seem to be relative to the target/tracer's angle, so the helper object does indeed need to be placed on the map. It would have been more convenient for the helper to be spawned instead of positioned manually, but it seems the latter is the way it needs to be.
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Old 05-13-2012   #16
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Originally Posted by Katmint View Post
Speaking of Honeyhive, it needs a new name so we don't have two HHZs.
Iron Hive Zone
Honey Terraces Zone
Golden Woodland Zone
Beehive Brush Zone
Bee Vomit Bog Zone (ignore this one, heh)

Take your pick.
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Old 05-13-2012   #17
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Except that Haunted House Zone isn't a mansion - it's a castle.
In that case, Haunted House is in an even bigger need of a name change. Not only is its current name uninteresting, it's misleading. How about Haunted Fortress? That sounds more accurate, as well as more threatening.
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Old 05-13-2012   #18
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Crazy workaround time!

Spawn the helper Object with A_SpawnObjectAbsolute and without any offsets so that it's right on top of the enemy. Make the helper Object target the enemy with A_FindTarget. Make it face the enemy with A_FaceTarget. Turn it around by 180 with A_ChangeAngleRelative. Move it forward with A_MoveRelative. Voila, you now have the helper Object where you want to be.

Yes, this is excessively complicated and maybe not really worth it. But it's the best thing I could come up with.
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Old 05-13-2012   #19
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I have to say the levels picked are pretty good, it will be interesting to see them in made.

Zany Ziggurat should stay as the name of the zone since it is pretty unique.

A name suggestion for Cloudy Domain + Heavenly Tower would be just to call it Cloudy Domain since the name still would fit the bill for a zone with the ideas that both of the separate zones. Structures like a tower can be included within a domain. But, if this zone idea is suppose to be a later zone then the name Heavenly Domain could fit for a zone that is near the end of a series of zones to give a sense that the zone is not going to be an easy one.

Cyronic City's name would fit perfectly fine with the zone ideas being represented.
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Old 05-13-2012   #20
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Seeing the work on socs come in already is absolutely fantastic, especially the Gravity Garden badniks.

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Here is the link to a prototype final or near-final boss that Whackjood requested I post here.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/rgazbv
Although, I need to pick apart the boss you submitted 742mph. I adore the initative you took in making it, but in practice it's not a very good boss. Firstly, it's extremely unclear how to damage it, while there's a reliable method for doing so you do a very poor job at conveying it. The player needs more feedback in game to know that dodging the bosses attacks by staying as far away as possible isn't the correct way of dealing with things.

Also, because the player is encouraged to stay near the boss to do damage, the player needs warning as to what attack is coming up next before it begins. This is fine when the boss is going to fire the THZ turret because of the audio cue from the charging noise, but the other attacks come out without warning.

The pinch phase is unreasonable and cheap rather than difficult as well. The attack where you are shrunk is fine imo, but the combination of rapid fire missiles and THZ turret spam in the second attack is absurd. Also, the method used to damage the boss during the pinch phase is too difficult, even for what is intended to be a final boss.

This is a nice start, and it's more misguided rather than outright bad. If you fixed all of these problems, it would have a place late game, but I doubt I would include it as the final boss of the entire pack.

However, on the topic of final bosses. Would anyone take objection to the final boss taking place in a single act zone after Steam Engine? As a hypothetical example, the player defeats the Steam Engine Zone boss then goes to a new final level to fight the final boss? Similar to the Wing Fortress to Death Egg transition in Sonic 2.
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