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Old 01-15-2014   #21
Thompson
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Still man, regardless if it was your point or not, even it does make a game have replay value, if I make this level pack coop-compatible, all that was once there would stoop down to common standards, and my maps wouldn't stand out the way they do now.

I'm repeating the same thing and I feel like my other post was totally ignored, but it becomes a mistake if you take what was fun originally there just to simplify from something outstanding to something average just to sacrifice for coop.
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Old 01-15-2014   #22
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You're missing the point Char. It's not fun to socialize all the time, and some games aren't the same as a solo experience if you try and design it around multiple players. I shouldn't always need a partner to truly enjoy a game if it can just be made enjoyable around single player, and I can think of many games (and SRB2 levels even) that can muster a lot of replay value entirely through its single player.

Thompson's already explained that if he tried to make it coop compatible he would have to remove some of the dynamics that make for a memorable single player adventure. So what you're basically doing right now by insisting that the level pack should be coop compatible, is insisting that his level pack should be a social experience more than a single player one.

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Originally Posted by CoatRack View Post
What made you think he was saying everyone was him? Of course there would be online co-op servers with this mod added if it was Co-Op, and I see nothing wrong with that. He is just saying he prefers to play Co-Op with close friends, not that everyone does.
The point of Thompson's comment was that some of us don't feel as strongly about multiplayer over single player as Char does. He didn't explicitly suggest that everybody does, but it's pretty implied that that's the norm.
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Old 01-15-2014   #23
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Well, I can agree that Co-Op does limit what you can do. But in the newest version of Chaos Domain I managed to keep the dynamic parts of the mod in Single Player, while still making it work in Co-Op by telling the game to load the level in a special way to fix the segments for online play. A good example for this is in the second level of the first zone, where in Single player the last segment would start to flood as the weather changed to a rainstorm. While in Co-Op, I disable the flood and rainstorm effect but kept the last part.

I don't know how easy it would be to do in Thompson's levels, if at all possible, but I am just thinking that he doesn't have to remove the dynamics from the whole thing, just find ways of working around it in Co-Op. Even a simple teleporter at the part where the other players would be blocked off at sending them to the next section would work, or even a alternate pathway that opens up could work.
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Old 01-15-2014   #24
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Exactly what Coatrack said. The idea that you have to leave features out to make it LOOSELY compatible with co-op is, at best, lack of motivation to do so, and at worst, complete horseshit. No one ever asked for gimmicks to be scrapped, just workarounds to be made in case they're needed. And really, you're shooting yourself in the foot to not do so, when so many people would take advantage of it and enjoy it so much more.

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Originally Posted by Blue Warrior
You're missing the point Char.
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some of us don't feel as strongly about multiplayer over single player as Char does.
I'm missing the point? When are you going to start reading the multiple times I've said that the co-op I'm advocating for is about replay value, and completely separate from the initial singleplayer experience? It's impossible to discuss something like this if you're going to attribute to me favoritisms and things that I never wrote, man. :|

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It's not fun to socialize all the time, and some games aren't the same as a solo experience if you try and design it around multiple players. I shouldn't always need a partner to truly enjoy a game if it can just be made enjoyable around single player, and I can think of many games (and SRB2 levels even) that can muster a lot of replay value entirely through its single player.
More of the same. I never said anything about always playing multiplayer. I'm only talking about replay value. And I never said anything about "socializing all the time" as being optimal. In fact, I said that although it's fun, it takes me some effort and it tires me out. That's quite the opposite, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Thompson
Still man, regardless if it was your point or not, even it does make a game have replay value, if I make this level pack coop-compatible, all that was once there would stoop down to common standards, and my maps wouldn't stand out the way they do now.
I find it more than a little pretentious that you refer to levels other than your own as "common", but that aside, I think the issue is that you don't realize that co-op compatibility need not sacrifice anything, period. If there is a gimmick that absolutely screws up or separates two players, simply make a way to bypass it! Vanilla SRB2 does this. Chaos Domain (credits to CoatRack) does this too. I enjoyed playing it in co-op with CoatRack himself. It was cool, because he was able to give me a personal tour through it, explaining some of the thought behind different parts of the levels, and showing me easter eggs and things I hadn't found on previous singleplayer playthroughs. That wouldn't have happened if he hadn't bothered to make a few quick bypasses.

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I'm repeating the same thing and I feel like my other post was totally ignored
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression. I edited my second post within seconds after posting it, because I realized you had responded in the time that I was typing. I believe the message I added was "this is an answer to what Thompson said in his previous post, too", because both you and Blue Warrior brought up the same issues.
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Old 01-15-2014   #25
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I think you're forgetting something here: We're talking about a level pack whose very trademark is "dynamically changing the level environment to make progress". The vast majority of rooms require the player to open some kind of door, push some kind of button or interact with the level environment in some other way that is simply not coop-compatible. A coop game in this pack would look like this: One player does all the work while everybody else stands around and waits. Rinse and repeat in every single room. And on top of that there are sections like the hangable BASHs in Twilight Isle or the avalanche chase in Sparkling Icecap that would have to be completely skippable in order to work in coop.

You can't compare this to Chaos Domain, where only a few segments need to be modified for coop compatibility. This is a level pack whose entire appeal is based around things that would disappear or become entirely pointless in coop. Sure, it would be technically possible to add coop compatibility without harming the single player experience, but is it worth the effort for something that simply won't be any fun at all?
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Old 01-15-2014   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher View Post
You can't compare this to Chaos Domain, where only a few segments need to be modified for coop compatibility. This is a level pack whose entire appeal is based around things that would disappear or become entirely pointless in coop. Sure, it would be technically possible to add coop compatibility without harming the single player experience, but is it worth the effort for something that simply won't be any fun at all?
While my pack was nowhere as extreme with level changing as this one, I would like to point out that I did use quite a few buttons in Chaos Domain, and even special event effects (Stronghold Forest Act 1's ending for example) that would have been questionable to be left in Co-Op, but left them in since I made sure that there was a work around.

Also, while I didn't quote this part of your post Spirit Crusher. I would like to say that on the level packs I have played that required you to get a button, almost every time we ran into a one we took the path it was on as a group. You can kinda say we wanted to see who could hit the button first, or just enjoy the level together since sitting at the door would be boring.

But I can't make you add in Co-Op compatibility, as it's your level pack and choice, I'm just voicing my thoughts on the matter and what you may be losing from it. But I wouldn't be surprised that somewhere down the road, people will be asking for a Co-Op version when it is released.
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Old 01-15-2014   #27
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I find it more than a little pretentious that you refer to levels other than your own as "common."
It's not pretentious, and didn't intend to make it seem that way. I was referring to the fact that my levels do not follow the standard srb2 formula way of mapping at all.
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Old 01-15-2014   #28
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It's not pretentious, and didn't intend to make it seem that way. I was referring to the fact that my levels do not follow the standard srb2 formula way of mapping at all.
Of course they don't, because no such formula exists. Even the vanilla 2.0 levels feature drastically different design styles, with stages like Greenflower Zone, Deep Sea Zone, Castle Eggman 1, and Egg Rock Zone banding together to make a thoroughly incohesive experience. There's nothing that markedly different about your levels, besides the fact that you put a lot more time into packing their architecture with good content than most do.

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A coop game in this pack would look like this: One player does all the work while everybody else stands around and waits. Rinse and repeat in every single room... ...This is a level pack whose entire appeal is based around things that would disappear or become entirely pointless in coop. Sure, it would be technically possible to add coop compatibility without harming the single player experience, but is it worth the effort for something that simply won't be any fun at all?
I can just picture it:
<Nev3r> Hurry and platform up the stupid tower and press that button, Boinciel.
<Boinciel> I'm trying, but I can't figure out the way up :(
<Nev3r> Well hurry the fuck up and figure it out, I'm getting bored here waiting for you.

Just joking, that would never happen. :p

I'm not sure what sort of co-op games you've played, but I think your statement here is missing something, and that something is to account for the joy of exploring together. When you say that the entire appeal is around things that wouldn't work in co-op, you're flat out wrong. In between those gimmicks, a few of which may not be co-op compatible by default, there is lots of exploring, platforming, and badnik popping to be done. If these things carry no basic appeal as you say, then by your standards they're just useless padding and should be removed anyways.

Quote:
And on top of that there are sections like the hangable BASHs in Twilight Isle or the avalanche chase in Sparkling Icecap that would have to be completely skippable in order to work in coop.

You can't compare this to Chaos Domain, where only a few segments need to be modified for coop compatibility.
Actually, Chaos Domain is the perfect example! I'm thinking of the Nightmare Pass part. I completed this co-op, because we both entered it together, and worked through the level as it collapsed around us. In any discussion about co-op, you can't forget about the "All players" sector effect, which makes timing the entrance of all players into any limited gimmick a snap!

Lastly, saying Thompson's levels are almost entirely made up of such gimmicks is a gross exaggeration. Twilight Isles being the best example, wasn't a large part of that platforming or pushable puzzles? I remember parts like the waterskipping challenge, and the raising water puzzle, and the gargoyle puzzles in the tree. The gliders at the end make a perfect example of how easy a co-op bypass is.

You see, in a true game focused on playing -together-, the players would glide off as a group, but for anyone who died and got left behind, a simple teleporter would pop up to the next area, the moment the collapsing sequence had blocked the way. This applies to the avalanche, and really any other such gimmick too. It's really as simple as that
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Last edited by Charybdizs; 01-15-2014 at 05:09 PM. Reason: bad spelling error
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Old 01-15-2014   #29
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Quote:
I'm missing the point?
Actually yes, the point is you can't always create multiplayer support without harming a specialized single player experience, at least not without heavy internal restructuring.

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I find it more than a little pretentious that you refer to levels other than your own as "common"
"Common" is a fair choice of wording actually, Thompson's type of level structure isn't standard. I don't think that's a pretentious thing to say at all.
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Old 01-15-2014   #30
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Except that it was paired with the word "stoop", which is what makes it pretentious. To "stoop to something" means to lower yourself to a lesser or inferior thing. Standard =/= inferior, therefore you can't "stoop" to it.
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Old 01-15-2014   #31
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You're reading way too far into it.
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Old 01-15-2014   #32
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I think I sparked a debate/argument that wasn't really necessary, and most of the points have already been said, but here are a few more things.

-No matter how hard you try, those people playing on the Master Server are going to add this file in co-op even if it states it's single-player only. You may want them to see those cool effects for the first time without someone spoiling it for them, but it's hard to make absolutely sure of this if they can just force co-op anyway.

-After about two to three playthroughs of a levelpack, I generally stop playing it alone and grab some IRC friends and run through with them, staying close to each other. If I know the levelpack won't suddenly fall apart on us, I try to play it blind with those IRC friends, still sticking together. I love playing alone as much as everyone else here, but after a while, to keep things fresh, I try to play with other people I know.

-Really cool maps that we won't be able to race on :(

-Making things compatible is about as easy as adding a teleport near areas that a player made inaccessible by falling rocks.

At the end of the day, even if it doesn't support co-op, I'll probably edit it on my own like I've done with many other maps so that it does so I can enjoy it with my IRC group. (I wouldn't release the edited version, obviously.) I'd still play the original version before ever editing it, of course, but after that gets old, and I want to make the levels feel fresh again, I may dip into them myself.
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Old 01-15-2014   #33
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Originally Posted by Charybdizs View Post
Except that it was paired with the word "stoop", which is what makes it pretentious. To "stoop to something" means to lower yourself to a lesser or inferior thing. Standard =/= inferior, therefore you can't "stoop" to it.
Okay, now you're just trying to be a correctionist. I've already corrected you're misinterpretation, by saying it wasn't what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Charybdizs
Of course they don't, because no such formula exists. Even the vanilla 2.0 levels feature drastically different design styles, with stages like Greenflower Zone, Deep Sea Zone, Castle Eggman 1, and Egg Rock Zone banding together to make a thoroughly incohesive experience. There's nothing that markedly different about your levels, besides the fact that you put a lot more time into packing their architecture with good content than most do.
You really do like to take things literal. So let me try to fix what I said again, and let me try to make this a little bit more clear, as I've chosen the wrong words apparently. Maps are maps. There is no difference in that obviously, but every map maker has their own style and way of mapping. Everyone's maps stand out in a sort of way, and when I said common, doing the simple teleport to the next room is the most boring way to make a map compatible for multiple players.

Sacrificing does suck. I knew about me not being able to do coop with these sort of maps. I thought about what you guys are suggesting before. Like damn shouldn't have made my maps like that, but they're fun anyway. It built my character as a map maker, and tend to stick with the way I map, because I find it fun, amusing and enjoyable all along. I'm shooting a bullet through my foot, refusing yours and others similar way of thinking, because I just don't see it. I just clearly choose not to sacrifice something I want to be seen, poured my heart and life into, made for no reason, just for the sake of group playing, when really Charybdiz you could just see it yourself, and by yourself and probably get the same amusement as if you were playing with a friend. If I'm going to make something, I want every single person to see it. Not just a simple way around it. There's nothing unique you could do to help surpass that. And yet wait to see someone do it without blocking the path and opening a tunnel around the room.

It's not fun. Replay value right? ..What's the point of replaying in coop if there's nothing fun to do in the first place and take what's fun originally and just cannot replace it. If you have any ideas, other than just saying "simply going around it" and referring me to other player's maps, I'm interested and I'll listen to what you have to say. ALL ears bud, but going back and forth on this is not helping at all.
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Old 01-15-2014   #34
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I also think you guys are all barking up the wrong tree. SRB2, as a game, features many modes and many gameplay styles that may not be for everyone. Those of you that may like coop may not like match, and vice versa. This is normal when you have a game with so many gameplay styles, but this doesn't mean that every bit of content needs to be built for every mode to please everyone. ERZ2 would make a really shitty match stage.

Thompson is building a single player mod based on exploration. This is different from SRB2's built-in single player stages, which are based on a larger variety of modes and gameplay. That doesn't mean that Thompson's mod is "bad" or "not to its full potential" because he's not supporting some of the modes that SRB2's built-in single player stages support; it just means that he's focusing on a specific kind of gameplay that doesn't lend itself to working correctly in multiplayer.

Single player is the most popular mode of SRB2 by a wide margin. If he's going to only support a single mode, single player is the one to choose. If this means he's aiming his mod at pleasing people that aren't you, that's fine. That's part of having a game with a variety of modes. I, for one, am really looking forward to this regardless, because for me, single player and exploration are the best part of the game.

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Old 01-15-2014   #35
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Nice level pack, good to see that level packs are still being made despite the drastic drop that has been happening lately on level releases.

Also, loving the effects with the lightning on Molten Mountain, those must have been a lot of work, this is defintely a level pack with a lot of work put into it, keep it up.
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Old 01-15-2014   #36
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Spoiler: Twilight Isles

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y6f2nz0a9m...lightisles.wad
Rainbow, sunset, island themed map, supposedly the first stage.
I really love this stage's visuals! However the first two screenshots look a bit bland. IMO it would be worthwhile to add some background structures. That's just me though.
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Old 01-16-2014   #37
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I really do love the look of a lot of these levels, though like SpeedGod, I can't help but feel that some of the screenshots just don't do the levels justice in that a couple of them appear to be bland. Still, though, definitely something I look forward to exploring at my own pace when it's all said and done.
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Old 01-16-2014   #38
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I think I sparked a debate/argument that wasn't really necessary
Not your fault. Had you not brought it up, somebody else would have.
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Old 01-16-2014   #39
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I'm amazed to see you're still an active producer of maps, Thompson. I still remember your old Sonic '06 levels from nearly five years ago; even then, your level design was picking up immensely near the end of that mod.

So I'm excited to see all of the original stages you've made. There were a couple of quirks in Twilight Isles that derped on me in analog mode, but the quality in all three levels posted is great overall. I look forward to seeing this as a finished set of single player levels.

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Not your fault. Had you not brought it up, somebody else would have.
That is very true of this community. Walls of text debating intensive semantics, all sparked over nothing, but this case is pretty negligible compared to what I've seen in the past on other web forums.
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Old 01-16-2014   #40
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Great levels! cant wait for more :)
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