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Old 03-24-2020   #6441
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
I would say Amy is by far the hardest. Her attacks are strictly timing based, she can't spin jump, use the spin attack, or spindash, and her most useful abilities (destroying spikes and launching further off springs) are at best situational. Fang is also more difficult than Sonic, but nowhere near as much so as Amy.
Nah. Really, Amy's most useful ability is that she jumps higher than the other characters. Spikes and springs are barely worth noting outside of helping to separate character-specific paths.
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Old 03-24-2020   #6442
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The point should always be having fun playing a video game, and the positive feeling you get when you achieve something you've been struggling with for a while. That's what everything related to 100% completion in SRB2 aims to accomplish.
Considering how exactly this seems to be what both of us want despite our entirely different viewpoints and experiences on the matter, I feel as though a little bit more of an explanation of my side of things is necessary.

The key difference between our perspectives seems to be what we consider to be "fun", and how we go about achieving that sensation in video games. For me, it boils down to basically two essentials: Fun gameplay, and incentive to keep experiencing said gameplay.

What defines fun gameplay for me is simple: Responsive and intuitive controls that feel satisfying when put into motion. SRB2 does this quite well for the most part, better in fact than the majority of 3D games within the Sonic franchise. However, fun gameplay on it's own eventually grows stale.

This is where incentive to keep experiencing the gameplay comes into importance. There are a number of ways a game can achieve this. Some games reward you with progress through a story it has to tell. Some games give you missions to complete with rewards for you at the end. Some games give you a score of some kind to beat. Some games combine a number of different techniques together, etc.

The thing about a system similar to the Red Star Rings in Modern Sonic games, the emblems in SA1 and SA2, etc. is that you are continually rewarded as you collect them as your incentive for doing so. It's similar to why children go trick-or-treating during Halloween night. While yes, just the act of going out and searching for houses participating in the festivities is fun on it's own, what the kids are really after is the candy they receive for doing so.

It's fine to make collectable items difficult and time consuming to find/collect, but in doing so it's much more fun to be rewarded for doing so properly rather than just being able to boast about it. It's not necessarily that the lack of a proper reward is bad, it's more that it's more fun if you have a reason to do it other than just for the sake of doing it.

Sonic Generations has an interesting idea of achieving this. As you continue to collect Red Star Rings, you continue to receive small rewards for every one you collect based on how many you have so far. Sometimes you get concept art. Sometimes you get new music to listen to and use in stages. Sometimes you get new skills. You get the idea. Rather than striving for one really big reward after collecting them all as was how Colors Wii handled it, you collect many much smaller rewards that give you more immediate satisfaction, and the curiosity of what you might unlock next drives you to go after the next one.

Compare this to S4EII. Most people rarely even go after the Red Star Rings in that game because while the act of collecting one might feel a little bit satisfying in the moment, the game doesn't really do anything to motivate you to go after any that you don't happen to be able to grab along the way. You are not given incentive to go after them, and so they might as well not exist.

I am aware of Pandora's Box, but while it does technically count as an "unlockable", I don't really consider it technically a "reward". It effectively amounts to just a collection of cheats that for some reason disable save progress even though you've already done everything by the time you unlock it. It's fun for like maybe 10 minutes while you toy around with it, and then it basically just amounts to an easy way to check if a modded in character has a super form.

There's a number of different ways that different games handle 100% rewards. Some games give you a special ending. Some games give you an extra boss battle. Some games give you a special level to roam through, etc. The general idea behind this is that 100% is a noteworthy enough achievement that the player deserves something tangible in return for playing the game to completion.

While Modern Sonic specifically wouldn't need to be unlocked at 100%, some sort of character making use of that moveset would be really cool. It could be Shadow, It could be an original OC, it could even just be Classic Sonic again but with the different moveset.

What makes this moveset specifically so perfect for a 100% reward however is that the entirety of each level is open to it. You can bounce higher off springs and break fragile wood by stomping, similar to using Amy's hammer. You can boost through spikes, similar to using Metal's Dash mode. You can use the wall jump to access pathways usually only available to Tails and/or Knuckles. Basically by all accounts, a totally unfair character to be able to have before 100%, but a great way to give incentive for getting to and playing even after 100%. Use of the character in coop would even function as a great way to show off to your friends that you've done everything and unlocked that really cool thing for doing so, in turn acting as incentive for them to do the same thing.

As such, that kind of thing is just really fun. Sure, players who choose not to get 100% wouldn't have access to that character, but that would be entirely because of their choice not to go after it. Such a thing shouldn't be considered crucial content for every player to experience. A balanced character like Amy or Fang, sure, but not an overpowered character tied to doing everything there is to do.

I'm not trying to give the impression that a bonus character tied to 100% completion should make players feel as though 100% is mandatory. I agree with you that it should be the kind of thing where you only collect the emblems for as long as you want to. I just feel like the endeavor is more fun when there is something tangible you get after doing so. A reason for the journey to exist, rather than the journey needing to be it's own reward. A worthy prize for committing so much time and effort to doing all of the content the game has to offer.
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Old 03-24-2020   #6443
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The problem with the homing attack is that it disincentives players from learning to make proper use of momentum. If you screw up with your momentum, you can just use a homing attack and hit the thing you were trying to hit anyway. This does make things easier for new players, but not in a way that helps them to learn the game mechanics. Most players would probably choose not to turn the homing attack off ever, because it would seem at first to be infinitely more useful than the thok.

It's like if you were to put a toggle in to give Tails infinite flight. The natural progression in difficulty would be to toggle it off so that Tails can grow tired again, but most players would never feel incentive to do so because it would just feel like an unnecessary handicap given their options.

Restricting something like the homing attack behind the attraction shield is probably the best way to go about it. That way any of the characters can make use of it, and it works in a way that fits better within the momentum based classic gameplay style they are shooting for.

Giving Sonic a secondary ability on spin while midair (not the homing attack) would probably be better for making him more accessible. Something like a double jump, or the drop dash.
I can only speak for myself, but playing the Modern mod did make me better as playing at Vanilla Sonic, simply by virtue of playing the game more. I was aware I was playing with a "handicap" but when I went back, I was landing jumps more confidently and playing more aggressively -- which yielded more success.

Mind you, two important things -- before playing the Modern mod, I'd already completed the game twice with full emeralds, as Knuckles and Sonic & Tails. AND I am coming from the perspective as someone who has NEVER BEFORE enjoyed playing with Modern abilities until this Mod in this particular game.


We agree that giving Sonic an extra jump / recovery ability mid-air greatly improves his accessibility and level of difficulty.

Whether it's homing or double jump or whatever, I strongly encourage the Devs to consider this as an optional "Assist" or something, and to test with new players.

I think this addition would strongly help to pull in a new audience that the game deserves who might otherwise give up after half an hour.

---------- Post added at 05:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------

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This discussion showcases one of SRB2's biggest hurdles to overcome: the titular character--who is the main character of the entire franchise the game is a fangame of--is the HARDEST character by far (well okay maybe Fang is harder but he's an unlockable and intentionally weird) and there's really nothing the devteam can do about it. New players are just going to automatically pick Sonic because why wouldn't you pick Sonic? I don't envy the devteam.
This is exactly my point. I think the solution can be simple and elegant; it doesn't need to be a separate Sonic.

"Homing Assist: On or Off? (Recommended for beginners)"

Turn it on, and you simply apply the jump abilities from the Modern mod to Vanilla Sonic and thok becomes jump+spin. Turn it off, and Vanilla Sonic is as he is today.

Somebody in the chat was saying buffing Sonic's stats in any way for the benefit of newer players would destroy the record attack scene, so Homing Assist can't be used in record attack.

The point isn't to ruffle the feathers of long-time players but make the game accessible to someone who might be exposed to the game through videos like Woolie's, and be curious enough to try it, and then quit because it initially feels so significantly different from every other 3D platformer, and every other Sonic game. It's acknowledging the game has an existing player base who prefer "hard" Sonic, while also making the star of the game (and the one most fun to play) also the easiest/most accessible, whether you use Tails' flight assist or not.

As Mystic said above, players enjoy games for all kinds of reasons. There's a wide spectrum of difficulty options the game already offers to challenge players -- what it could benefit from having is essentially "easy mode" for Sonic.

"But Tails is already easy mode"

Tails is easy because of his ability to recover, but he presents the other challenge of getting lost in the level more easily. (Someone suggested adding a compass for Tails and I think that's a smart idea).

Rather than encouraging the player to NOT use the game's best character, why not instead offer the option of buffing the star character to be able to cheese harder platforming sections with the recovery provided by the homing/double jump.

Also, Tails is not Sonic, right, he's a different character with different abilities entirely and experiences the levels much differently by design. It's great to have the variety of options already present in the game.

"Homing Assist" is the idea that Sonic could be both the game's easiest character and most difficult character with the switch of a toggle.

It makes Sonic a bit more "easy to pick up, but difficult to master." Right now only the second half of that is really true.

In Woolie's video you can see he struggles playing as Sonic especially with navigating 3D space... and it's not even his first time. He said he'd played the game before and completed it (w/o emeralds) as Knuckles. I had kind of a similar experience in my first play throughs. It's clear from Woolie's video how much a new player would benefit from having a toggle-able Homing Assist training wheels as they learn the camera and movement controls. Woolie himself, like me and maybe everyone here, had the sort of passion through nostalgia to connect with the game and lean into it and be patient with it, and maybe the game should only be extremely niche within a niche within a niche like a Russian nesting doll of specific hobbies and interests, but I think a game like this is pretty special and deserves a wider audience. I think there's so much to appreciate and love in this game and it's a bummer that the barrier of entry is higher than it really needs to be.

And again -- I don't think anything else needs to really change other than the optional recovery buff. I don't think the levels need to be rebuilt or enemies relocated.

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 03-24-2020 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020   #6444
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Wouldn't it be better if there were Horizontal Springs here? these sections feel like they're just there to make you stop and charge your spindash.



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Old 03-27-2020   #6445
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The steam jets in thz are kind of frustrating - I'd like for them to be larger, and for their "hitbox" to last for more than 1 tic. Maybe 3.
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Old 03-27-2020   #6446
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Is there any chance of Eggman (Eggpack) ever being an official unlockable? It would be cool if he was a secret unlockable tied to clearing the game once, same as Metal, and came with a "Metal and Eggman" option that is the same idea as "Sonic and Tails".

The reference heavy voice clips and super form doesn't even need to be a thing. Just the base character would be plenty.
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Old 03-27-2020   #6447
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There are some areas isolated to specific characters that have rings that prevents others from getting a perfect. Can there be a means to declare the number of rings each character has to obtain in order to get a perfect bonus? Of course, this value should be set to all the rings that character is able to obtain legitimately (which probably will have to be tediously accounted for manually).
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Old 03-29-2020   #6448
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Please find a way to make THZ goo less annoying. The idea and level design around it, as a mechanic, is great. But the stuff is just so damn slow to escape from, especially if an enemy knocks you into it.

When playing as Sonic & Tails, jumping off tails should force him into the fall state so he doesn't pick you back up.

Last edited by Krabs; 03-29-2020 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 03-30-2020   #6449
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When playing as Sonic & Tails, jumping off tails should force him into the fall state so he doesn't pick you back up.
Alternatively just de-flag PF_TAILSPICKUP, as that will disable the grab mechanic.
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Old 03-31-2020   #6450
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This isn't a suggestion for the game, but a comment on the new custom gametype addon naming conventions, because I don't like them but I dunno where else to put them:

Using Z to prefix the base resources is pretty nonsensical. It doesn't stand for anything relevant (at least G would stand for custom gametypes!), and it separates gametype addons from their expansions in addition to throwing them all after any expansions in a flat folder structure! That means an average person scrolling down through their addon list for things to add is encouraged to add expansion addons before the base, which doesn't work.

My suggestion is to throw out the Z prefix on base addons, and add a letter for expansions at the end of the prefix. This would be a perfect place to instate the prefix letters used for vanilla addons (for differentiation between TrM_ for levels and TrC_ for characters, if someone decided to make an addon-exclusive character for whatever reason), or a single letter (E or X for (E)(X)pansion?) could be used instead.

Code:
Tk_Thokker-v2.pk3
TkL_FangPopsTheBallInsteadOfLaunchingIt.lua
TkM_GiantFartZone.pk3
This would put the base addons directly above all of its expansions in the addon list, and is also more consistent with the naming scheme for independent addons, as the Tr (or other gametype prefix) is simply replacing the V or K in that naming scheme.
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Old 03-31-2020   #6451
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Using Z to prefix the base resources is pretty nonsensical. It doesn't stand for anything relevant (at least G would stand for custom gametypes!), and it separates gametype addons from their expansions in addition to throwing them all after any expansions in a flat folder structure! That means an average person scrolling down through their addon list for things to add is encouraged to add expansion addons before the base, which doesn't work.
Seconded. If this is to be fixed, it must be as soon as possible, before we reach the point of no return where forcing a large amount of releases to rename themselves is not worth the effort. Unfortunately, since SRB2's addon menu treats special characters as after the standard alphabet, Tk_ would appear underneath TkL_ in your example. I'm stumped to find a better solution, but I'd like to keep the V part of the prefix as well. Another problem is that standard file structures would wort TkL_ underneath Tk_.

Last edited by Krabs; 03-31-2020 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 03-31-2020   #6452
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Damnit, file sorting sucks ass. How about TkB_? It's not as pretty (I like the sort of offset look that using fewer characters gives) but it should work fine in the addon browser as long as nobody decides to give a resource type the A_ prefix letter. chaos will never die


I wouldn't mind keeping the V in the prefix, honestly. It would help to distinguish Kart modes too, if those ever get official support, since they'd be KTkB_ instead of VTkB_.
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Old 03-31-2020   #6453
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After sleeping on it, here's my idea:

VTkG_Thokker-v1 <- G denotes a custom gametype
VTkX_MyThokkerExpansion <- X would be used for literally any and all expansions that rely on a custom gametype. Maps, characters, anything. This way, we don't have to hope that certain prefix letters never get added in the future. Expansions for a certain addon type will likely not get so out of hand that they need additional prefix letters beyond X, I think. After all, the standard letter system just doesn't really fit in with custom gametypes. By the way, if an addon (such as a character) decides to add thokker support, the addon would not need to add TkX unless it is dependent on thokker being added first to work.

Both srb2 2.2.2 and standard filesystems will sort these the same exact way, which was my goal.

Last edited by Krabs; 03-31-2020 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-02-2020   #6454
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This might have been suggested already, but I think it would be really useful if there was a key dedicated to going super like in Sonic 3 A.I.R., instead of using the spin key. It's really annoying when I hold spin so I roll when I hit the floor and I go super instead. On the topic of the super form, it would be neat if there was an option to disable the super music and let it use the regular music instead. I find the super music, as good as it is, to be quite repetitive after a while, and it sometimes doesn't mix well with the level's atmosphere.
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Old 04-04-2020   #6455
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Are there other threads to pitch ideas for Mods? Or is that basically just also this thread? Like I wish I had any programming ability to make this.

Freedom Fighter

Super simple but adds a lot of fun to replaying levels -- just adds a Rescue count to the HUD -- xx / yy -- x is the amount of enemies you've killed, y is the total amount in the level.
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Old 04-04-2020   #6456
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To throw my 2 cents into the Modern Sonic thing, I don't like the mod. I think it's too much, too many features, too different, and it doesn't work well with the levels as they are. However, I understand the appeal of playing as the Sonic that, at this point, a lot of players have grown up with. If you had an entire set of levels designed for Modern Sonic, great! That's an entirely new game, and if you want to make that then good luck to you.

That said, I think it would be neat if an extra character - maybe not Modern Sonic, maybe Neo Sonic, maybe something else - was included in the addons folder on install, but not loaded by default, as a way to teach players who poke around the menu how addons work. Right now when you install the game and you're not used to the idea of modding, it's just a button that shows some confusing UI and does nothing. Someone mentioned Egg Pack, that would definitely be a good option if the meme voice lines were taken out.
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Old 04-04-2020   #6457
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To throw my 2 cents into the Modern Sonic thing, I don't like the mod. I think it's too much, too many features, too different, and it doesn't work well with the levels as they are. However, I understand the appeal of playing as the Sonic that, at this point, a lot of players have grown up with. If you had an entire set of levels designed for Modern Sonic, great! That's an entirely new game, and if you want to make that then good luck to you.

That said, I think it would be neat if an extra character - maybe not Modern Sonic, maybe Neo Sonic, maybe something else - was included in the addons folder on install, but not loaded by default, as a way to teach players who poke around the menu how addons work. Right now when you install the game and you're not used to the idea of modding, it's just a button that shows some confusing UI and does nothing. Someone mentioned Egg Pack, that would definitely be a good option if the meme voice lines were taken out.
Honestly if Egg Pack were to be officially shipped with the game I would rather it be included as an unlockable rather than an addon. Though I do feel like including an addon with the game would be a nice way to ship the game with one of the OC characters without actually making them an official, vanilla character. For the sake of the joke, HMS would be a great option. However, one of the several other OC's such as Dirk, Hinote, or Inazuma might be more worthy.
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Old 04-05-2020   #6458
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To throw my 2 cents into the Modern Sonic thing, I don't like the mod. I think it's too much, too many features, too different, and it doesn't work well with the levels as they are. However, I understand the appeal of playing as the Sonic that, at this point, a lot of players have grown up with. If you had an entire set of levels designed for Modern Sonic, great! That's an entirely new game, and if you want to make that then good luck to you.

That said, I think it would be neat if an extra character - maybe not Modern Sonic, maybe Neo Sonic, maybe something else - was included in the addons folder on install, but not loaded by default, as a way to teach players who poke around the menu how addons work. Right now when you install the game and you're not used to the idea of modding, it's just a button that shows some confusing UI and does nothing. Someone mentioned Egg Pack, that would definitely be a good option if the meme voice lines were taken out.
How about just Add-On the doublejump/homing attack? That's the core component of what I think makes Modern Sonic easier to play as than Vanilla. *points to post above*

I also just really dislike the distinction between the two, and believe there ought to just be "One Sonic" who can have multiple different move-sets (ala Mania offering drop dash / peel out / insta-shield).
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Old 04-05-2020   #6459
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Heres an off topic suggestion. Give knuckles his ova hat. Seeing how the game already has sonic ova representation with brak robotnik and Dark City zone. Plus, the game closing screen has knuckles with his hat.
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Old 04-05-2020   #6460
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Heres an off topic suggestion. Give knuckles his ova hat. Seeing how the game already has sonic ova representation with brak robotnik and Dark City zone. Plus, the game closing screen has knuckles with his hat.
It's a small referential detail. It would be neat to include as an easter egg somehow, but not enabled by default.
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