Features from modern games that you would feel welcome in SRB2

time gear said:

Something that could probably be done to make it work is to use a world map for the main campaign levels, but keep the existing level select for the extra levels such as Haunted Heights. This could allow for support in using the existing level select system for modded in levels, and could also allow modders to create their own world map for custom campaigns.

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ehhh i think the world map should replace the level select entirely. it'd be fun to see how all of the levels link up together in this huge interconnected world. we already know greenflower mountain exists, but where does red volcano lie? what about deep sea? is aerial garden near the mountain?

idk it's just something that could be taken advantage of so well.

We can actually see some semblance of connectivity in the backgrounds if you look hard enough. For example...

I believe this is Techno Hill Zone, those grey buildings, or the still unimplemented Dark City Zone.

and here...

Is Arid Canyon (Left) And Red Volcano (Right) as seen from Act 1 of GFZ's background!

cookiefonster said:

I really don't understand this whole mentality you have of absolutely hating modern Sonic games and claiming they objectively have zero redeeming qualities that SRB2 should stay as far away from as possible. As I said earlier in this thread, some elements from those games have had variants of them included in SRB2. For more examples, Amy's moveset is based on pretty much a combination of her moveset in Adventure 1 and Advance 1 (I haven't played the latter, that's just what I'm informed), and Fang's shooter system is not unlike the mech shooter levels in the Adventure games. Also, the emblem system in SRB2 was directly inspired by that from the Adventure games.

Most of the examples I brought up are from the Adventure games, which isn't too surprising because that's when 3D Sonic just started diverging from 2D Sonic.

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I didn't realize that hammering a spring was a thing, but Amy's moveset is probably based more on Advance 1 than Advance 2. If I remember correctly, she was turned into an unlockable Sonic clone in the sequel, even curling when jumping. In Advance 1, everyone had a melee attack, but you'd never use the attacks due to you having to come to a complete stop, as well as the range of the attacks being so small. It was more effective to just spindash or jump on the enemy. Unless you were Amy, in which case, melee was your only offensive option.

But I was surprised to learn that even Adventure 1 was following a precedent that was set for the character back in the Classic era. The first appearance of the Piko-Piko Hammer was in Sonic: The Fighters. So while that game wasn't a platformer, it could be argued that the hammer based gameplay was a Classic element.

SilverVortex said:

ehhh i think the world map should replace the level select entirely. it'd be fun to see how all of the levels link up together in this huge interconnected world. we already know greenflower mountain exists, but where does red volcano lie? what about deep sea? is aerial garden near the mountain?

idk it's just something that could be taken advantage of so well.

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I don't really think a full replacement is necessary to achieve that effect. What's noteworthy is the importance of maintaining support for the existing system for playing modded in levels, but there's also not really any reason why couldn't use different menus for different modes.

The main campaign could all be placed into one big "Adventure Mode", which is where the map system could be placed. First, the player chooses a save slot, then a player character, and finally is brought to the world map to select a level, with only Greenflower available at the start. Once a save slot is given save data, the chosen player character and the player's progress is saved onto that slot, and every time the player plays from that slot they can resume from the zone they played last, or if they have cleared the campaign they can return to any level within the campaign. Extra levels like Haunted Heights could also be represented here as post-campaign content.

Outside of the main campaign could be "Free Play" mode, which uses the existing level select system. The player starts from any zone/act they have cleared with no emeralds and no ties to save slots. This would also be the menu you would go to when you want to play modded in levels individually.

Modders would also have the freedom to replace the campaign with their own custom adventure mode, containing their own world map.

On the topic of a world map, I don't think it has to be an either/or thing. We can have a list and a map at the same time. You can have a map that takes up the whole screen, and a list of levels on the right side. As you scroll through the levels in the list, the location is highlighted on the map, with a preview graphic. Modded levels wouldn't have to have a specified location, but they can if the modder chooses to give it one. If the level has multiple acts, pressing left and right would let you switch between them. Additionally, there could be a button that minimizes the list and lets you select freely from the map.

time gear said:

I don't really think a full replacement is necessary to achieve that effect. What's noteworthy is the importance of maintaining support for the existing system for playing modded in levels, but there's also not really any reason why couldn't use different menus for different modes.

The main campaign could all be placed into one big "Adventure Mode", which is where the map system could be placed. First, the player chooses a save slot, then a player character, and finally is brought to the world map to select a level, with only Greenflower available at the start. Once a save slot is given save data, the chosen player character and the player's progress is saved onto that slot, and every time the player plays from that slot they can resume from the zone they played last, or if they have cleared the campaign they can return to any level within the campaign. Extra levels like Haunted Heights could also be represented here as post-campaign content.

Outside of the main campaign could be "Free Play" mode, which uses the existing level select system. The player starts from any zone/act they have cleared with no emeralds and no ties to save slots. This would also be the menu you would go to when you want to play modded in levels individually.

Modders would also have the freedom to replace the campaign with their own custom adventure mode, containing their own world map.

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i mean i understand what you're saying but the reason i'd like for it to replace the level select as a whole is because 1. it'd just be more unique in general but more importantly 2. it could show us different locations and how they are interconnected with the other places (and more importantly bonus levels) in the world. where is azure temple in relation to deep sea? is techno legacy a sector in techno hill zone? where is pipe towers even located? does forest fortress take place directly below castle eggman?

so many quesitons...so many answers...
(again i do agree with you and the logic in place here but man i'd just love this)

GrayAngel said:

On the topic of a world map, I don't think it has to be an either/or thing. We can have a list and a map at the same time. You can have a map that takes up the whole screen, and a list of levels on the right side. As you scroll through the levels in the list, the location is highlighted on the map, with a preview graphic. Modded levels wouldn't have to have a specified location, but they can if the modder chooses to give it one. If the level has multiple acts, pressing left and right would let you switch between them. Additionally, there could be a button that minimizes the list and lets you select freely from the map.

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I would probably elaborate on this slightly by including the act selection functionality while in free map selection mode. When hovering over the zone you wish to enter, press spin to rotate between Act 1, 2, and the Boss act, and press jump when the act you desire to travel to is highlighted. Alternatively, the acts could be listed separately within the physical area representing the zone and you simply hover over the act you wish to travel to and select it. There could be a separated area for modded in maps and the like which aren't represented by a physical location but nonetheless are selectable options.

SilverVortex said:

i mean i understand what you're saying but the reason i'd like for it to replace the level select as a whole is because 1. it'd just be more unique in general but more importantly 2. it could show us different locations and how they are interconnected with the other places (and more importantly bonus levels) in the world. where is azure temple in relation to deep sea? is techno legacy a sector in techno hill zone? where is pipe towers even located? does forest fortress take place directly below castle eggman?

so many quesitons...so many answers...
(again i do agree with you and the logic in place here but man i'd just love this)

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Again, you could achieve that just fine without entirely abolishing the existing level select system. You would easily be able to see where everything is in relation to each each other from the world map in Adventure Mode. They could even all be selectable options from there.

cookiefonster said:

I really don't understand this whole mentality you have of absolutely hating modern Sonic games and claiming they objectively have zero redeeming qualities that SRB2 should stay as far away from as possible. As I said earlier in this thread, some elements from those games have had variants of them included in SRB2. For more examples, Amy's moveset is based on pretty much a combination of her moveset in Adventure 1 and Advance 1 (I haven't played the latter, that's just what I'm informed), and Fang's shooter system is not unlike the mech shooter levels in the Adventure games. Also, the emblem system in SRB2 was directly inspired by that from the Adventure games.

Most of the examples I brought up are from the Adventure games, which isn't too surprising because that's when 3D Sonic just started diverging from 2D Sonic.

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Yes, I think modern Sonic (and Sega) ruined the original spirit and intention of the series (or even the franchise as a whole), is it a problem? I am just expressing my opinion. I don't mind being called a "Sonic purist" but remember that Sonic Robo Blast 2, a game that is closer to the Classic series even if it's in 3D, is much better than anything Sega has done in decades.

I remember the thread about adding grinding rails and one person said that it wouldn't be good and I've agreed with them.

Icarus said:

Yes, I think modern Sonic (and Sega) ruined the original spirit and intention of the series (or even the franchise as a whole), is it a problem? I am just expressing my opinion. I don't mind being called a "Sonic purist" but remember that Sonic Robo Blast 2, a game that is closer to the Classic series even if it's in 3D, is much better than anything Sega has done in decades.

I remember the thread about adding grinding rails and one person said that it wouldn't be good and I've agreed with them.

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but saying that modern elements of sonic couldn't work in classic gameplay is extremely narrow-minded and that's being kind about it.

as cookiefonster has already mentioned, amy is inspired by advance, the gunslinger is inspired by adventure, and emblems are also inspired by adventure's emblems and modern's red rings, but i am in the minority that think that grind rails would actually work in srb2.

technically speaking, we already have them in the form of the minecarts in arid canyon 2. modern sonic even reflects that by grinding on the tracks himself whenever he lands on them.
as well as this, traditional grind rails a la SA2 could work as a risk-reward method of speed gaining, or just an alternative way to play, just like that game had. or even, and this is quite a stretch imo, it could be the perfect way to give sonic his own exclusive paths in srb2.

the possibilities are endless, you just have to believe they're there.

Ah yes, SRB2 is but the closest thing to the pure, pristine intent of the classic series.. despite building it's core gameplay around an instant-top-speed move and only just recently getting slopes. Not to mention only even more recently deciding to have a control setup in mind for people who want to play the game like a platformer.

I love SRB2 but hot damn am I tired of that narrative, especially considering how busted it is. lol

On topic, I think a little bit more ability to turn while rolling would be nice. Nothing as finicky as most 3D Sonics that feature it, maybe, but something a bit less stiff would be nice. As would the ability to uncurl. Also grinding would be cool (if used cleverly / sparsely)!

I think the big thing that some people opposed to adding Modern Sonic stuff might be misunderstanding is that just because something more modern is added in, that doesn't mean it can't be done in a way that fits within the classic style. As mentioned already, Minecarts are effectively just grind rails. There's ways other more modern things could be implemented in a way that fits within the Classic Sonic style.

Nobody is saying we need to grow Sonic taller and give him green eyes, this topic is generally more about how features from the modern games could be implemented in a way that fits within the classic style SRB2 is going for. SRB2 need not be limited to features that existed only on the Genesis/Mega Drive.

Something else I would like to see eventually is the dynamic music that changes when you go underwater in zones/acts that contain water deep enough to get submerged into, similar to the Rush games. It's a small detail, but it goes a long way.

Icarus said:

Yes, I think modern Sonic (and Sega) ruined the original spirit and intention of the series (or even the franchise as a whole), is it a problem? I am just expressing my opinion. I don't mind being called a "Sonic purist" but remember that Sonic Robo Blast 2, a game that is closer to the Classic series even if it's in 3D, is much better than anything Sega has done in decades.

I remember the thread about adding grinding rails and one person said that it wouldn't be good and I've agreed with them.

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Actually... Grind rails could be an interesting mechanic for, say, Dark City. It all depends on how it's handled, though. Give Sonic a skateboard, like what he had in Generations, and let him grind on rails with it. Many levels have a gimmick or two, such as the purple goo in Techno Hill, or the dust devils and minecarts in Arid Canyon. I don't see why grind rails can't work.

The idea that features from modern sonic games are automatically crap and can't be translated to fit the classic sonic style is nothing more than twitter/youtube-tier opinion that smart people should not hold, it limits the potential of exploring more ideas for no real good reason. As already stated SRB2 already has plenty of stuff that are not too disimilar from those found in the modern games, if necessary there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting more inspiration from them as long as you use them well.

RomioTheBadass said:

The idea that features from modern sonic games are automatically crap and can't be translated to fit the classic sonic style is nothing more than twitter/youtube-tier opinion that smart people should not hold, it limits the potential of exploring more ideas for no real good reason. As already stated SRB2 already has plenty of stuff that are not too disimilar from those found in the modern games, if necessary there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting more inspiration from them as long as you use them well.

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^^^^Pretty much this

There are already a few things from the 3d games that I think would fit nicely in srb2.

The first checkpoint post is most definitely a good idea, srb2's starposts are notorious for having a small hitbox without a star post activator, and they are something you definitely not wanna miss during gameplay.

The balloons from the adventure games could be a neat thing for hiding items in plain sight or just out of reach

Rails won't add much gameplay wise, but some sonic heroes rail station-type obstacles could be an interesting level gimmick.

Actual swimming (for certain characters) and bubble spots that don't force you to be at a standstill to collect will speed up the pace of water levels as well as make for some interesting alternative pathways and secrets.

cookiefonster said:

Although I was disappointed when I first played SRB2 (a few days before 2.2 came out) and saw that the checkpoints weren't designed like they are in the modern Sonic games, I can accept the checkpoint design as it stands because checkpoints tend to be put in places that are hard to miss, often right at the start of path splits.

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However, if I recall correctly, there are no checkpoint activator sectors in the vanilla game (or atleast just a few), so you need to touch the checkpoint's (pretty big, but still small compared to the sectors) hitbox.

Twins'R'Awesome said:

^^^^Pretty much this
The balloons from the adventure games could be a neat thing for hiding items in plain sight or just out of reach

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I forgot about those! That could be a great addition and add for some fun platforming, especially if hitting the balloons maintains your momentum after doing so.

DrTapeworm said:

is it cheating to say "a HUD that looks more presentable"

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As in?

I personally think the HUD is fine. Maybe changing the text for icons? I can't see what else one would change to it... though it's likely just a lack of imagination from my part. I also thought the Windows GUI was good until this video.

Also yes, wider checkpoints pls

GrayAngel said:

Actually... Grind rails could be an interesting mechanic for, say, Dark City. It all depends on how it's handled, though. Give Sonic a skateboard, like what he had in Generations, and let him grind on rails with it. Many levels have a gimmick or two, such as the purple goo in Techno Hill, or the dust devils and minecarts in Arid Canyon. I don't see why grind rails can't work.

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wait wait wait this guy has a point
this would be a really neat way to make minecarts/grind rails more interesting in terms of level building. could it be possible to make them customizable, giving a custom level its own version of minecarts? thatd be pretty damn epic lets be real here. sonic having a skateboard seems really silly though, but in a good way. what about the other characters? do they all get skateboards? i wanna see metal sonic on a skateboard (also would help make dark city a more interesting level, though then again im basing my opinion off the dark city from the demos, which was a really - really - boring - level...... but my point still stands)


also, off topic, but whats with people thinking modern sonic is the worst... ? whats with this mentality that sega hasnt made a good sonic game in Decades? is this the new 'sonic had a rocky transition to 3d' that bases itself off of sonic adventure dx instead of the original sonic adventure? i really dont get it. did everyone suddenly forget unleashed? or colors? or generations????? hello?????????????

zevirik said:

also, off topic, but whats with people thinking modern sonic is the worst... ?

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The classic games were innovative, controlled well, had huge, intricately layered levels with plenty of alternate pathways and secrets, as well as plenty of depth to its otherwise simple gameplay.

The 3D Sonic games never really came close to replicating this style of gameplay in 3D and only departed further and further from this gameplay style as the series continued.

zevirik said:

wait wait wait this guy has a point
this would be a really neat way to make minecarts/grind rails more interesting in terms of level building. could it be possible to make them customizable, giving a custom level its own version of minecarts? thatd be pretty damn epic lets be real here. sonic having a skateboard seems really silly though, but in a good way. what about the other characters? do they all get skateboards? i wanna see metal sonic on a skateboard (also would help make dark city a more interesting level, though then again im basing my opinion off the dark city from the demos, which was a really - really - boring - level...... but my point still stands)

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I'm not sure exactly how the skateboard would work. They'd probably be a pretty big challenge to get the physics working right. And of course, it would require new sprites.

zevirik said:

also, off topic, but whats with people thinking modern sonic is the worst... ? whats with this mentality that sega hasnt made a good sonic game in Decades? is this the new 'sonic had a rocky transition to 3d' that bases itself off of sonic adventure dx instead of the original sonic adventure? i really dont get it. did everyone suddenly forget unleashed? or colors? or generations????? hello?????????????

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Unleashed immediately turned me off with that whole Werehog thing. And from what I've heard, only the day time stages (50% of the game) are fun. But still, I'd give it a shot now...if it ever releases on Steam. Colors ticked me off for a variety of reasons. I eventually bought it used, since I heard so many people voice positive opinions about it, but I just couldn't get into it. I'm not a fan of the controls, the story, the voice acting, how they turned EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER into comic relief. God, I hate that game. Generations? I bought it, I enjoyed it, but it didn't feel like it was worth full price. Classic Sonic was clunky AF. Ironically, Classic was the entire reason I bought the game, but I found myself enjoying Modern Sonic's gameplay so much more. It definitely gets points for winning me over to the Boost formula I was so against at the time. But...it was too short, and I was expecting a slightly more complex story than the one we were given. That's one common complaint I have with games post-Colors. Their stories feel like a big waste of time. Why bother even having a story if it doesn't go anywhere?

So yeah. I'm not against Modern on the basis of it not being Classic, but each on their own merits range from mediocre to awful, in my opinion. If you like those games, though, I won't try to take that from you. They just don't work for me.