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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #1
Seaballer
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Default Something about the spindash

oh god here I am again with another balance discussion

Alright, I'll make this simple. Brevity is the soul of wit, as some say.

As it stands, I have 2 (two) gripes with how the spindash is currently implemented.

1. It's too slow, as stupid as this sounds. Don't get me wrong, max rev is definitely worth it, but when I see a 1-rev spindash giving me a light tap on the back all "haha kid here's your speeps" I feel like permanently unbinding the spin button on my config file.

2, and the main problem I have with this ability, it feels like a gimmick instead of a tool. (No, Tails, you're not allowed a say in this.)

A bit of a plea as this somewhat dives into Sonic ability territory so please focus on how it affects the spindash and don't derail this, aight?

I hear time and time again about how SRB2 should feel faithful to the classic games. And I gotta say, the spindash here definitely isn't faithful at all. Manual vs auto charging aside, I'd like to ask how much you should actually use the spindash in SRB2, with Sonic specifically. I'll answer for you: if you want to go fast, you wish you wouldn't need to spindash at all. Sonic is just thok after thok after thok after thok, with frame 1 jumping as the inbetweens to preserve those chrunchy 60 fracunits per tic. But Sonic does have to spindash sometimes. Not for speed, obviously, but for entering spin-only segments in path splits. You know that DSZ2 spinning wheel? You'd spindash there, and that's it. Bye-bye, spin button, I certainly won't miss you.

In other news, Tails spams the spindash on every single level. Spindashing with Knuckles is encouraged, especially after landing from a glide. The easiest way for Metal to enter Boost Mode fast is by charging a spindash about halfway through. And over there in the left corner, Sonic spindashes for a split second to get into a dedicated spin character section. Gameplay.

And to make things worse this behavior is exclusive to SRB2! No other Sonic game that has ever had the spindash is actively deincentivizing you to use it. In Sonic 2, it's a tool for speed. In 3&K, it's a tool for speed. In Adventure 1, it's his entire gameplay, although you can certainly see why this missed the mark. I tend to mock Sonic Labyrinth for how amusingly stupid it is but it still has a spindash that serves its purpose.

I bothered to check our current Sonic world record, and found out that, excluding the half-second spindashes in GFZ2 and the Fang boss fight, the spindash is used around 10 times. Ten. In a campaign with over 20 levels? Need I say more to prove my point?
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #2
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Spindash covers a ton of horizontal ground without losing jump height. I admit I didn't use it as much as the thok my first time around as Sonic but after seeing the utility it has in speedruns I use it all the time now. With the right timing you can cut large gaps that the thok is simply unable to cross. Not to mention the fact you pretty much have to roll in order to use slopes effectively since they not only give you greater speed, but a well placed upwards spindash combined with a jump can give you a decent amount of vertical mobility as well. This also helps Tails and Knuckles a lot (not to the extent it does with Sonic but still)
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #3
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The reason Sonic doesn't use the spindash is because he can thok to get to nearly the speed of a fully charged spindash at the press of a button. The solution is to either un-nerf the spindash or nerf the thok.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #4
cookiefonster
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Thank you for bringing up these issues with the spin dash, I've thought about that topic quite a bit myself. The spin dash is one of the most difficult parts of the classic games to translate into 3D and indeed feels somewhat gimmicky in SRB2. In the 2D games, you can use it to zoom straight to the right or left, but in SRB2, spin dashing forces you to go in just one of numerous possible angles, which is often at odds with the level geometry. That said, compared to prior updates, 2.2 is somewhat a step in the right direction regarding spin dash usefulness, because the game now makes regular use of slopes.

Even in 2.2's level design, I don't typically use the spin dash if I want speed; I usually use it if I have to, like if I need to go up a steep slope or use the DSZ2 spinning wheels. Spinning while moving, on the other hand, I use in many different scenarios, like if I want to defeat an enemy up ahead, roll into a nearby monitor, onto a horizontal spring, under a small gap, down a slope, you name it. Comparing the two ways to spin, it would be weird to have one but not the other. This issue with the spin dash, as you said, isn't helped one bit by how it takes quite a while to charge to useful effect.

In terms of specific characters, since you brought that up, thok spam obviously overrides the need to spin dash for speed as Sonic, which is a total can of worms that this thread isn't about. As Tails and Knuckles, spin dashing greatly increases the speed of flying and gliding respectively, but I still don't use the move very often when playing as them (though definitely more often than with Sonic, since they can't thok spam). As for Metal Sonic, giving him the same spin dash/spin as the main trio is just one of many ways he feels like a missed opportunity for bringing something totally new to the table that others don't offer. Spin dashing to enter boost mode is a neat idea, but that just makes it even more uncontrollable than spin dashing already is. I think it would be much more interesting if Metal got a different move from the spin dash, maybe still something that allows him to roll under small gaps but forces him to handle other spin-based situations in different ways.
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Last edited by cookiefonster; 1 Week Ago at 01:42 AM.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5
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Halving the charge time and moving the thok away from Sonic would fix like 90% of the issues with the spin dash, I feel.

This is only kind of related, but SRB2 could also probably use more pseudo-automated rolling/springing sections (like the big ramp in GFZ2, or the giant spring across the map in one of the CEZ1 paths) in general. Getting a cool speed section as a reward for conquering a difficult platforming section is a big aspect of what makes the level design of the classic games so memorable.

Last edited by Unknownlight; 1 Week Ago at 02:31 AM.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #6
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Originally Posted by cookiefonster View Post
I think it would be much more interesting if Metal got a different move from the spin dash, maybe still something that allows him to roll under small gaps but forces him to handle other spin-based situations in different ways.
I always thought it would be interesting if boost mode gave Metal the shorter height required to fit under small gaps. If this is paired with a lack of spindash it could be used to soft-gate him off from spin-only areas by placing the gap in a location difficult to maintain boost into.

...if this is *also* paired with putting the thok on Metal, it would solve the issue of thok vs spindash redundancy.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaysakado View Post
I always thought it would be interesting if boost mode gave Metal the shorter height required to fit under small gaps. If this is paired with a lack of spindash it could be used to soft-gate him off from spin-only areas by placing the gap in a location difficult to maintain boost into.

...if this is *also* paired with putting the thok on Metal, it would solve the issue of thok vs spindash redundancy.
Boost mode should definitely let Metal fit under small gaps. If boost mode becomes the only way he can roll under gaps (no spin dash), it might be cool to give a level a Metal-exclusive emblem that forces him to maintain enough speed to roll under a gap to a Sonic/Tails/Knuckles, and then run through spikes to uncover the emblem.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #8
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Originally Posted by Unknownlight View Post
Halving the charge time and moving the thok away from Sonic would fix like 90% of the issues with the spin dash
Basically my thoughts on this situation, yeah.

I also like the idea of Boost Mode making Metal small enough to fit spin-gaps - one could then replace his Spin Dash with something themed around his Boost Mode. The vanilla trio would all have the Spin Dash and the unlockable trio would all lack it. Symmetry!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #9
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Yeah, i'm not sure how I feel about the spindash. As it stands I don't even use it (except for that one singular part in DSZ2) and well, why should I? Thokking gets you to max speed instantly so i don't see any need to use it. I don't want it to be removed outright, that'd be stupid and it's a staple of Sonic, but I feel it could use some work.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #10
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In the classic games, I often use the spin dash to generate speed when I'm up against a steep slope, and I'd rather spin dash than try to get a running start.

In SRB2, I feel like I want to use the spin dash to get myself up to momentum after some platforming element that cuts my speed, like taking a spring up to a ledge.

With Sonic, the thok replaces that need (as already said by others here). And also, I do agree that a faster charge time might make me reach for the spin dash more often.


(Also, Kays's thought above about Metal Sonic's ability design seems insightful to me.)

Last edited by BlueZero4; 1 Week Ago at 04:50 AM.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #11
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I don't really use the spindash much in general, unless I'm playing Metal. The level design rarely has steep inclines, and loop-de-loops aren't really a thing. It's just a limitation of the engine. I think it's fine as is, though. I don't want it to be like Sonic Generations, where it sends you 50 feet ahead after holding it for a fraction of a second.

What if there was a way to manually rev it up, like in the classic games? Like maybe if you hold the spin button, you could mash another button to speed up the process. Having it assigned to jump would take away the option to cancel, and tapping forward might feel awkward on controllers. But what about one of the assignable extra buttons?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayAngel View Post
What if there was a way to manually rev it up, like in the classic games? Like maybe if you hold the spin button, you could mash another button to speed up the process.
Rumia1's classic.wad has already implemented this functionality.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #13
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Oh, neat. Too bad it's assigned to jump and not Extra 1 or something, though. One of the things I do use the spindash for is to hold it down, wait for an enemy to die touching me, and then jump to cancel.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #14
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I vastly prefer the hold charge spindash over the button mash spindash. Button mashing mechanics are terrible design in general for being unkind to hands and speedrunners will just get around it with a turbo button anyways.

The spindash would be fine if it:
1) charged faster
2) didn't compete with thok
3) rolling physics were not ridiculously stiff
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Old 1 Week Ago   #15
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Honestly, I find the bigger problem on spin dash to be how restrictive it is. Your air movement is so much more strict, and it causes you to only be able to use it is a straight line. I know a lot of us have already compared thok to spin dash, but I even tend to use thok as a make shift spin dash by thokking right before I touch the ground to have thok speed and good air control. The other three characters also have ways around the air mobility issue by using their abilities. Metal's hover is somewhat restrictive, but even canceling the hover grants him normal air mobility.

I think spindash would be nicer if it wasn't that "line up your shot" type move, although that's hardly the core issue, since Tails and Knuckles use it only to augment their abilities and Metal mostly uses it as a faster acceleration than running.

Heck, the only time Sonic himself uses it in the current speedrun is DSZ2 to spin the wheel, CEZ1 to skip the start, and ACZ1 to take a shorter path to the wind shield. Getting the first hit and 6th hit on Fang. I think they use it for Metal Race start too. And these are simply because it grands that little extra speed thok can't provide.

I will say, I don't think having it charge faster will solve any core issues. It's still inferior to thok in almost all situations, and having it charge faster would merely improve Tails and Knuckles who are already incredible users of spin dash. And I don't think just making Sonic's spindash better would work, as it kind of throws off timing between characters. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it would make it somewhat odd when switching characters.

In general though, I don't really think much needs to be done to spindash, as just because it's underutilized by Sonic doesn't mean it needs changed. I do hope it gets standard air control though to make it more useful in platforming.
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