Unofficial v2.2 Discussion Thread

Being forced to manually turn the camera makes exploration for collecting hidden level emblems terrible,and its horrid that you have to align the camera at a precise angle just to successfully latch onto a specific wall to climb it,let alone gliding.

I can only hope a mod maker can get a full analog movement mod working and can also prevent the save-disabling mechanism from triggering so it can be playable as Sonic or Knuckles without losing the option to save the game.

On an old version with access to analog,I was able to rapidly speedrun with spamming the speed thok on GFZ1 at various angles to maintain the enhanced speeds you get from chaining it consistently.
The changes forces you to always thok directly forward,thus destroying that functionality.
You also lose out on viewing many sprites due to it automatically turning around,meaning you can't see Sonic and friends' faces when standing directly over a ledge.
 
While I prefer playing SRB2 with a keyboard and mouse setup, I sympathize with the frustration of analog players, particularly those who relied on analog as an accessibility option (for example, laptop players who only have a trackball mouse). Keyboard+mouse is better, imo, but it also requires a specific hardware setup that, understandably, not everyone can use effectively, and they're not inherently worse players for that. The impression that they are is why I suspect the response to analog's deprecation has been so stingy.

The dev team understands the need for accessibility features as evident by options such as closed captioning and auto-brake, so why not treat analog as an accessibility option and make it clear that it should only be used if difficulties are experienced with the keyboard and/or mouse? You could even go as far as to disable it until the tutorial is completed. If restoring the feature is completely off the table, then what about adding an auto-rotate function to the camera to help alleviate the need for manual adjustment, and/or ensuring that mods which alter the way input is handled don't disable saving? A fanmade mod to restore analog functionality seems inevitable at this point, anyhow.


With all that being said, this update is incredible. The new character sprites feel so dynamic and appealing compared to before, especially Tails and his now-independently moving fluffy appendages. The zones I have played through flow more nicely than before, some of the more needlessly complex/frustrating boss fights have been streamlined, and the new instrumentation of the soundtrack feels more like a mainline Sonic game. The fact that you gradually start with more lives after each Game Over is also a nice addition that encourages perseverance.
I was worried that the special stages would be overwhelming for people who have never played NiGHTS, but the fact that the first special stage is so lenient and that you unlock a dedicated NiGHTS mode after its completion means that people can practice it on its own until they get the hang of it. And this isn't even going into what a cool technical achievement it is getting fully functioning slopes working in the Doom Legacy engine.

Overall I enjoyed the new update quite a bit! Just about the only thing left that I'd like to see someday is 60fps support.
 
Why stop at 60fps?
Many First-Person Shooters (even though SRB2 has 3rd person) can do uncapped fps,and games like Minecraft.

Why not push for as high as 120fps or 144hz/144fps for stuff like users who have high refresh rate monitors?
Its common now to see many screens and even some pricier digital TVs with adaptive sync support such as G-Sync or Freesync,and those are practically mandatory for Windows 10 or else there is horrendous amounts of frame dropping across the board.

I would settle with 60fps at least,the 35fps even on my G-Sync screen has minor jagged frames on stuff like the title screen scrolling effects,but for some reason the title screen has unstable fps rates despite my powerful hardware.
 
The dev team understands the need for accessibility features as evident by options such as closed captioning and auto-brake, so why not treat analog as an accessibility option and make it clear that it should only be used if difficulties are experienced with the keyboard and/or mouse? You could even go as far as to disable it until the tutorial is completed. If restoring the feature is completely off the table, then what about adding an auto-rotate function to the camera to help alleviate the need for manual adjustment, and/or ensuring that mods which alter the way input is handled don't disable saving? A fanmade mod to restore analog functionality seems inevitable at this point, anyhow.
The problem here is that the game is designed around the default control scheme. That doesn't mean that it's designed around keyboard and mouse, although keyboard and mouse is the most effective version of the controls. It means that the game is designed with the assumption that you have direct control over the camera, like using the right stick to move it manually. Analog mode basically only does two things now: it makes your abilities go in the direction you're facing and it makes the camera automatically attempt to as well. The problem at the core is that it does both of these things very, very badly. Turn it on and you can do absolutely nonsense things like hovering in place as Knuckles. The automatic camera is similarly awful, basically emulating SA1 in all the worst ways as the camera consistently manages to point in directions that you absolutely don't want it to at the worst possible times. With the default, manual camera, it can't possibly suddenly face in a horrible direction unless you intentionally told it to. Basically, analog mode does the things it attempts to do extremely badly, and this is why it is now obfuscated.

Now, I'm not saying that this isn't a direction we could improve, and possibly having an option to make the thok/glide go in your facing direction instead of the camera's direction would be helpful for some players (even though it means you'd be thokking off in a direction you can't see in). I'm saying that we have done research and found that easily accessing analog actively hinders enjoyment of our game compared to players who spend the time learning the default camera setup. An automatic camera is only a good thing when it actually accurately predicts where you want it to face, and analog does not do that at all.
 
But removing it has hindered enjoyment, too. If it really wasn't enjoyable to people then there wouldn't be people wishing it stayed and got improvements, lol.

Even if the current version isn't up to standard, I feel like that means a better one should've probably been made instead of it being thrown out altogether. Easier said than done, sure, and I understand the want to encourage M&KB play and/or alt angles to look at playing it for gamepad for best effect, but it does feel like a step backward instead of a step forward for gamepad users to resort to that imo.

Besides, the only things analog mode does that hinders anything for me is not allow extra camera rotation or centering with the right stick; as well as the gliding weirdness and occasionally not pointing in the right direction when stages load up (things that I imagine can be fixed/added?). Otherwise it does the trick for me playing the game and feels rather good to steer. Maybe not to you or most people who are probably well versed in playing SRB2 as-is, but I and everyone who's had trouble with it that I've recommended it to saw it as a step up.
 
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Basically the problem is that it is initially a step up because it's more intuitive to start as it pretends to work like Sonic Adventure, but it then handicaps you permanently for the rest of the game. You'll do better in GFZ but by the time the game starts to bear its teeth, you'll be in a situation where the camera is woefully inadequate for what you're facing. This leads to a very common thread of feedback that the game controls are "slippery" and that the camera is "awful". The players who try out our standard setup tend to have an initial period of learning where they perform worse as they learn the scheme, but by the time the game's difficulty increases, they have enough of a grasp of the scheme to actually be prepared for it and perform way better overall, with less frustration about the controls and the camera.

Now, it may be that you've spent enough time with the awful scheme to get good at it. Therefore not using it feels like a major step back because all of your muscle memory honed for using that scheme doesn't work with the normal controls. I get that. You have a good reason to be frustrated. We knew this would happen when we did it. Yet we did it anyways knowing full-well that a significant group of people would be unhappy about it, because we know from research that analog was the number one reason why people were not having fun with our game. People would find it in the menu, turn it on, and discover that initial feeling of being better you are talking about, and then find themselves woefully unprepared for the later parts of the game where the level design expects the player to be in control of the game. We discussed it and decided that it was worth pissing off a segment of our established players to make sure that new players get to have a much better experience overall. As someone who is in the category of players that we decided to annoy, you have a right to be mad. Just please understand that we did this to make sure that we provide new players with the best possible experience so that they have a good time, not just in GFZ but throughout the game.
 
But out of those two reasons, the camera is only "awful" in that mode because of the things I just mentioned (and I don't see how fixing them negates analog control's existence), and the "slippery" quality has been done away with the introduction of the autobrake, hasn't it?

I don't know what else makes the control scheme 'bad' to you, unless you think steering at all like the SA games and/or a standard 3D platformer is an inherently inferior control experience. Which is an opinion you have the right to, if so, but in that case the decision reeks of a bias against it rather than an active improvement.

So the argument that those issues = 'remove this feature' doesn't make any sense to me, and will continue not to. Acting like it's a logical decision when I've given reasons as to why it's not and all responses have ignored any criticism, I feel like y'all took the stand to just tell people to bug off / get over it instead of listening. lol
 
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Thank you for the detailed response! I think I understand now that it's not necessarily a code-related issue but more of a design issue.

Now, I'm not saying that this isn't a direction we could improve, and possibly having an option to make the thok/glide go in your facing direction instead of the camera's direction would be helpful for some players (even though it means you'd be thokking off in a direction you can't see in)

I think this would be a fair addition. I can imagine a few situations where I'd want to thok/glide where I can't see, such as in a circular boss arena where I'm strafing around the boss and know that there aren't any obstacles to my left or right. An extra key could be added that you'd hold down or toggle in order to temporarily enable directional thokking/gliding, similar to how Doom has a toggle for running, which would further increase its versatility based on the player's current situation.
 
If you care so much about analog, then fix it yourself. The game's source code is available and you can modify it, but good luck trying to fix it. There's a reason it was hidden rather than improved.
 
But out of those two reasons, the camera is only "awful" in that mode because of the things I just mentioned (and I don't see how fixing them negates analog control's existence), and the "slippery" quality has been done away with the introduction of the autobrake, hasn't it?

I don't know what else makes the control scheme 'bad' to you, unless you think steering at all like the SA games and/or a standard 3D platformer is an inherently inferior control experience. Which is an opinion you have the right to, if so, but in that case the decision reeks of a bias against it rather than an active improvement.

So the argument that those issues = 'remove this feature' doesn't make any sense to me, and will continue not to. Acting like it's a logical decision when I've given reasons as to why it's not and all responses have ignored any criticism, I feel like y'all took the stand to just tell people to bug off / get over it instead of listening. lol
Just wait until they add the AngleThok and AngleStand features from the DirectionChar 2.1 backport and call it a day.


Just in case you don't know what I'm about, here's a link for you. Click right here.
 
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Just keep analog and call it hard mode or expert mode or kaizo mode and have it say not recommended for noobs or plebs and have it warn you 3 extra times before letting it be enabled and have it say a warning after enabling it saying "you asked for it,don't come crying to me if its too hard".
 
I'm laughing at all of the folks here who think analog is the 'old' controls...I don't even get a console variable. :)
 
Now, I'm not saying that this isn't a direction we could improve, and possibly having an option to make the thok/glide go in your facing direction instead of the camera's direction would be helpful for some players (even though it means you'd be thokking off in a direction you can't see in).

The thing is that once you are used to the layout of levels, thokking in a direction you are absolutely gonna want to do at times. Especially if you're playing with a controller. It lets you change your direction much faster than moving the camera around. There were points where I could save myself from overshooting a jump by thokking backwards or to the side before but now I just die because moving the camera back towards the platform is too slow.
 
Dusting off this old account to chip in about 2.2 and the ongoing analog mode debate:


Personally, I like Analog Mode. I have managed to beat everything from Egg Rock Zone to the campaign to even Aerial Garden with a gamepad and Analog Mode on 2.2. But at the same time, if there really are people who are having issues with the controls (and I'd probably be among them if I hadn't retooled a 2.1 mod to work with 2.2 to give Sonic a Homing Attack), then it's probably for the best it be hidden. I know how to turn it on, and I'd be happy to tell people how to do it if the devs are ok with it, but thinking on it now, I believe this is a good compromise, as those who are willing to look for it and manage to find it might have an easier time with any handicaps the mode might give.


Really, my one request is that the mode never be removed entirely, at least until a good replacement for it is devised (and despite the devs' insistence that the default controls is a good replacement, I unfortunately still find it awkward to play with those controls)
 
i think a decent, toggleable solution would just be something with the automatic camera movement of analog, but with the manual control of the default camera control. i think a big problem with how analog is now is that what manual controls are hasn't been updated or improved since probably it was first introduced. just a key that quickly centers the view behind the player would do wonders for something like analog and would be an easy thing to adjust even with the keyboard only
 
My first impression of the game it was nice. Until I got to Castle Eggman Act 3 which is impossible to beat for obvious reasons and got my first game over on that level and not to mention CEZ in general on my computer seems to lag a little.
 
This user name is old and I hate it. I haven't touched this account in years but since other people are coming out of the wood work to share opinions I figure I'd throw my two cents too. SRB2 2.2 is awesome, the new music, changes to the zones are fantastic and all the new unlockables really encourage continued play and secret finding!

On to the bad, I'm not in a position to talk about the controls, I found the new ones just fine and i'm not 100% sure what analog control is, but one thing I DO wanna complain about is the camera based thok because dear lord this was an awful idea (I never liked playing Knux so I can't comment on the glide). There have been several times where I would've been able to use it, either getting to a platform or saving myself when going off the ledge, but the way the it is now it's borderline impossible to use, so much so that I've taken to just not using it period. Which is bad because that's the only thing that makes Sonic unique outside of his speed.

And you know what I understand why it was done, Sonics thok has been an OP thing for a long time now! Come on though, there had to have been a better way of compensating then actively REMOVING control from the player. Anywho that's me and my thoughts.
 
I'm laughing at all of the folks here who think analog is the 'old' controls...I don't even get a console variable. :)

What are you referring to, exactly? Using the arrow keys to go forward and backward and turn left and right? That's definitely still in the game—I know because I still use that control scheme. I got used to it 15 years ago and have never changed.

Or are you referring to something even older than that?

--

By the way, congrats you guys! It's the night of Day 2 after launch and there hasn't been a single panicked emergency patch! I know that sounded sarcastic, but it's not. I'm genuinely impressed by the QA of this release considering the extent of the changes.
 

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