Sonic's Ability Discussion

Magnemania said:

I am incredibly confused as to why the very idea of rehauling the levels to fit Sonic's moveset is even part of the conversation. The levels are generally designed with the intention of a Thok-less Sonic to be able to go through them, much as how Sonic 3 and Sonic Mania design their levels for Sonic to go through them without relying on the Insta-Shield or the Drop Dash. Like the Drop Dash, the Thok is a tool for going fast far more than it is a tool for platforming, and the satisfaction from using the Thok usually arises from taking the same path Sonic would normally take, but faster and riskier.

The only level that could possibly need changing is Greenflower Act 1 to introduce opportunities for the player to use Sonic's new move, but I don't even see that as a necessity. Greenflower has enough gimmicks, collectibles, and side rooms for the player to learn a character's moveset regardless of what the character does. Every character I've played from Releases gets plenty of opportunities to use their moveset in vanilla Greenflower.

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Yes, exactly.

Although I would say Greenflower needs a gentle flying/butterfly badnik so you can test jump abilities and attacks. That's true whether Sonic's ability changes or not. Replace 10% of the crawlas with those.

Otherwise, aside from the obvious level design issues (like too many pits in AC1 in general and especially last section), that's not the issue. There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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LunickTMM said:

I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at. Most stages don't even need to be redesigned. They just need additional safety nets to allow players to retry the platforming segment. The current level design is fine, but mistakes are pretty punishing, and for a new player, lives and continues aren't exactly easy to come by either. Especially when playing as Sonic. This is partially why Thok is so difficult for new comers. You don't hear very often players getting stuck in GFZ or THZ because those levels don't dump you into a pit for failing basic platforming. Heck these stages don't exactly have "lower paths" either but because they aren't a life sink, the player has more of a chance to learn.

And the FSonic skills, if they work as you describe, solve zero problems. The main issue that is being discussed is that, if I understand correctly, "Sonic's Thok isn't intuitive to platforming and is often misused by newer players". FSonic does nothing to assist in that regard.

Edit: I can also assure you the only stage that might need editing in regards to a new ability would be GFZ1 just to help incentive the player to try it out. Regular platforming in SRB2 is fine. If Robo-Hood can beat the game then I think the current main design is fine.

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100% agree.

I feel like we're getting to the point of bending over backwards to avoid the obvious thing, what would probably be the most requested thing I would imagine, which is the homing attack. That helps the new player and solves virtually everything, provided it comes with the air thrust. But since it's off the table (I guess?), then instead it becomes anything else... like the entire game needs to be redesigned so that Sonic's current ability set doesn't change.

Moose the Fat Cat said:

I feel like we're getting to the point of bending over backwards to avoid the obvious thing, what would probably be the most requested thing I would imagine, which is the homing attack. That helps the new player and solves virtually everything, provided it comes with the air thrust.

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The problem here is that it absolutely does not solve virtually everything. This has already been discussed in great length, but I will review a few points briefly:

1. The Homing Attack is only useful for hitting things that are already within range without it, and can even be detrimental if it causes the player to home into something unintended when they are trying to make use of air mobility out of habit and something happens to be in range.

2. The Homing Attack kills horizontal momentum and bounces up the same distance each time, making it only useful for homing chains which are not intentionally incorporated into SRB2 level design. Otherwise, you can navigate just fine without it, and it doesn't help you go anywhere out of reach, nor achieve any maintainable speed.

3. The Attraction Shield already has something similar to the Homing Attack that already functions much better for SRB2's level design. It doesn't kill your horizontal momentum and can't be chained, cutting off both of the main problems with the ability at it's source. As an added bonus, you can use this regardless of character choice, and without sacrificing your primary air ability.

Has this version been suggested?

Tap jump mid air - homing
Hold jump mid air - thok

Similar to roll/spin dash but in the air.

Moose the Fat Cat said:

Has this version been suggested?

Tap jump mid air - homing
Hold jump mid air - thok

Similar to roll/spin dash but in the air.

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This would be rather inconsistent in use and would result in players homing when they want to thok and thokking when they want to home in on things. Tap vs Hold controls for air abilities are generally pretty terrible.

I'll just address abilities again. I don't have much of an opinion on the level design in regards to current Sonic since I can't really see where the thok is considered in any of these levels.

I think the double jump would work out okay for him, its most effective uses are pretty obvious compared to finding where the thok is useful. But I'm not gonna back it super hard unless the one problem I have with it is changed in that it betrays basic platformer reflexes to me. If I'm playing a game with a double jump, one of the most obvious things I'd expect to be able to do with it is to jump backwards to save myself from falling. I'd imagine this is a common sentiment, but SRB2's air physics would drop you like a rock if you did that. You could curve in midair but that's not readily apparent to most people in the moment and not always possible. It'd be nice if it provided a miniscule thrust in whichever direction you're holding, not enough to spam or exceed base speed but just to turn around without needing a physics rewrite.

I don't like any of the air ability versions Cobalt has drafted. The first one's mechanics confused me, the third one was just the SRB2 double jump with the same problem I listed above only with less height gain, and all of them still seem to encourage spam by letting you surpass your normalspeed in midair, just not as fast as the thok would.

I like the comet dash Katmint shared. In an hour it was more fun than I've ever had with the thok for years, and mechanically it's a lot of ideas I find enjoyable for a Sonic ability. But it might overlap too much with Knuckles or come off as unbalanced without some changes. It's saved me enough to where I think it might be better for newbies to grasp and use than the thok but maybe not enough for what the devs want. Plus it has some consistency issues with when you get your dashes back and how many come back, and maybe it could use some auditory or visual indicator for how many dashes you have left.

LunickTMM said:

I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at. Most stages don't even need to be redesigned. They just need additional safety nets to allow players to retry the platforming segment. The current level design is fine, but mistakes are pretty punishing, and for a new player, lives and continues aren't exactly easy to come by either. Especially when playing as Sonic. This is partially why Thok is so difficult for new comers. You don't hear very often players getting stuck in GFZ or THZ because those levels don't dump you into a pit for failing basic platforming. Heck these stages don't exactly have "lower paths" either but because they aren't a life sink, the player has more of a chance to learn.

And the FSonic skills, if they work as you describe, solve zero problems. The main issue that is being discussed is that, if I understand correctly, "Sonic's Thok isn't intuitive to platforming and is often misused by newer players". FSonic does nothing to assist in that regard.

Edit: I can also assure you the only stage that might need editing in regards to a new ability would be GFZ1 just to help incentive the player to try it out. Regular platforming in SRB2 is fine. If Robo-Hood can beat the game then I think the current main design is fine.

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New comers don't even need to use thok, it's optional anyways. I tried Cobalt's air ability and complete most staged without it because I didn't like it; ignored it naturally.
The level design thing is completely out of this argument, get done with it; lives and continues are also WAY out of this argument, could you stop bringing this up? We are discussing changing Sonic's ability (which I think shouldn't change that much)
You missed everything I said, FSonic jumps higher when he is in boostmode, this would help beginners. If that was added, you wouldn't need to thok to go as fast as the good players. As I said: we don't need to change the thok anyways, I actually like it.

XleederTH said:

You missed everything I said, FSonic jumps higher when he is in boostmode, this would help beginners.

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Players that have beaten the game and unlocked Metal Sonic can't even maintain his boost mode outside of the first zone, yet beginners would be able to stay in boost mode and take advantage of its jumps?

Seaball said:

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok? Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle?

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1. I think it's good. He can't aim a badnik tho.

2. I like something like drop-dash. But not homing-thok that this is only for Modern Sonic.

3. It was medium. Medium difficulty. I was stuck in the pressing-button part in THZ2.

Crum said:

Plus it has some consistency issues with when you get your dashes back and how many come back, and maybe it could use some auditory or visual indicator for how many dashes you have left.

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The dash should fully recharge each time you touch the ground. If it's not doing that it's a bug I need to fix. I have an idea for an auditory indicator so I'll add that into for the next revision.

Magnemania said:

Players that have beaten the game and unlocked Metal Sonic can't even maintain his boost mode outside of the first zone, yet beginners would be able to stay in boost mode and take advantage of its jumps?

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Well, let's make it so Sonic doesn't need to play at all and just blasts through zones automatically because people can't learn to play him then. I think this argument is most pointless thing ever, Cobalt answered with a completely new ability, it was really complex and felt like something for another character; arguments about instashield being useless because people don't know how to use it, are infinite. Arguments against double jump are also limitless; last thing you see, is me offering a thok that adjusts to your boost and a jump that increases as the boost does (It's called jump boost, and I think it's being a thing since 2.1 or less) and a instashield.

I think the best thing to say is "learn the game you wanna play, CS:GO is not going to completely overhaul because people don't know how to bunnyhop, learn the thok or complete the game without it, which is totally possible".

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Magnemania said:

Players that have beaten the game and unlocked Metal Sonic can't even maintain his boost mode outside of the first zone, yet beginners would be able to stay in boost mode and take advantage of its jumps?

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I even got a solution for that though, making it so the Dash (Called boost mode too) starts faster but it doesn't get to thok speed instantly, but you jump is increased still.

XleederTH said:

Well, let's make it so Sonic doesn't need to play at all and just blasts through zones automatically because people can't learn to play him then.

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Statements like this make it very difficult to take anything you say seriously.

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok?

I actually like it for nostalgia reasons but I realize it is very "unsonic like". And it is really hard to control with the camera and I often thokked myself to death. It would be favorable having to gain momentun on the ground. And not being able to skip using the thok.

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could?


Maybe it is just the force behind it that should be nerfed.



I like the homing idea, but all the levels would have to be redesigned into a way more linear fashion, so I guess not. I will look into Crums' Advance Sonic Character

Making Sonic faster and having an ability to glide safely to the ground while being vulnerable if you overshot your jump might work.

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle?

I could handle it, however I grew very careful with it as it wasn't clear where I might end up if I used the ability.

I'm not actually expecting this to get implemented, but for the sake of discussion I thought I would suggest this idea, see if maybe anyone can think of any improvements to the idea, etc.

Aimable thok: You can aim the thok up and down with the camera, rather than being limited to straight horizontal movement. Aiming it more up makes it weaker, whereas aiming it more down makes it stronger. Can be used to set up great badnik bounces.

requiring vertical camera movement to use a character is against our current design ethos. camera controls would need to be reconsidered if we were to make this part of the equation

CobaltBW said:

requiring vertical camera movement to use a character is against our current design ethos. camera controls would need to be reconsidered if we were to make this part of the equation

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Love this. Can't make the controls too complicated else people will be deterred from playing. You can only add so many control options before it becomes cumbersome.

Going to use spoiler tabs to save space and categorize the two different things I'm talking about.

time gear said:

make it so Sonic can cycle between three modes. Forward thok, Downward thok, and Upward thok. This could be cycled either via mouse wheel, 1 2 and 3 buttons, or by pressing spin midair without a shield

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Or maybe hold the jump button in mid-air to aim the thok (starting from a diagonal-downwards dash and ending with a diagonal-upwards dash).

time gear said:

if a player knows what they are doing

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If I understand correctly this discussion started with the fact that most people would rather throw their controller/keyboard into a wall than know what they are doing

I'll say this again, the moment you add "but if you're currently doing this instead" you've already designed a bad ability. Making Sonic's ability any more complicated will not solve anything. It would be neat, for sure. But the core issue here is we're concerned about newer players picking up Sonic and then quitting the game because Sonic is too hard to platform with.

Which is why I want to suggest something incredibly simple: what if we just increased Sonic's jump height? This gives Sonic a different edge over Tails and Knuckles while also making platforming slightly easier due to more air time. I know it wouldn't be much difference, but this way the game isn't becoming something different by changing the main character too much.

LunickTMM said:

[...] Which is why I want to suggest something incredibly simple: what if we just increased Sonic's jump height? This gives Sonic a different edge over Tails and Knuckles while also making platforming slightly easier due to more air time. [...]

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Knuckles (though not Tails) already jumps lower than Sonic. And "above normal" jump height is already a trait that belongs slightly to Fang and largely to Amy; Giving it to Sonic as well would make it less special for those characters to jump higher.
(Plus, in Sonic 2, 3, 4, Mania, Adventure, Next-Gen, et cetera, Tails jumps at the same height as Sonic. That's also a good argument for keeping Sonic and Tails' jump heights the same.)

LunickTMM said:

[...] I know it wouldn't be much difference, [...]

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In the grand scheme of things, maybe not... but there are plenty of places here and there that are 128 FracUnits up. Sonic's current jump height lets him get 124* FracUnits off the ground, so making him jump just slightly higher would let him get to a fair few places that he previously wasn't supposed to reach with just a normal jump, which will impact the vanilla levels a little bit and might impact some custom levels a lot.


* Sonic can jump 100 FracUnits off a non-sloped surface at normal gravity and scale, and players can step 24 FracUnits up onto something (unless the map changes it to 0 or 48 FracUnits in specific areas in a map) at normal scale, which adds up to 124 FracUnits in most situations.

I've made a round of adjustments to the Comet Dash here. I ended up axing the wall jump in favor of a "wall drop dash" because the wall jump was far too stiff and didn't flow well. You can also turn and brake while using the comet now.