SRB2 Message Board  

Go Back   SRB2 Message Board > Sonic Robo Blast 2 > SRB2 Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1 Week Ago   #41
Pyrakid Wolfo
 
Pyrakid Wolfo's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicNC View Post
Keeping infinite lives behind devmode cheats & 100% completion is dumb. We're all thinking it, deep down. It should be an option that you don't have to unlock. Maybe an easy mode.
This is the stupidest thing i've heard all day. Because YOU think something we all think it. I mean infinite lives sounds like a devmode thing and like what makes this game so different than other Sonic games, why do you people want so hard to make this game easier than the millions of platformers that came before it. This game isn't that hard, and i'm also not against an Easy Mode btw. But I don't think the lives system is a problem. The Easy Mode could make levels harder, and not unlock extras to incentivize players to play Normal Mode. (Playing easy mode will help people get better at the game, and then Normal for more of a challenge, even though I think SRB2's Normal Mode is already well balanced and does that, i do think the difficulty curve after Deep Sea we get Arid Canyon, RVZ, and then Egg Rock those are much harder levels.)
__________________
The man who's made 10 HUD mods with a small amount of installs and comments.
Pyrakid Wolfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #42
Zwip-Zwap Zapony
 
Zwip-Zwap Zapony's Avatar
Default

Responses to time gear:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
- If a player already has "max" lives for the level, what is the incentive for exploration, since the player can't earn any more lives? Even if the player finds a 1-up monitor, it won't do anything for them.
Emblems (if applicable/not collected), emerald tokens, shields/power-ups, and, if they have all 7 Chaos Emeralds already, rings (to become Super).

I can admit that that might still leave something to be desired, but I personally don't even explore (specifically) for lives even with the current lives system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
- If reaching a checkpoint refills your lives, wouldn't even a player who has lost lives feel more incentive to hunt down the next checkpoint than to move off the main path and explore? After all, the value of the checkpoint would far exceed the value of a single 1-up monitor.
Yes. I suppose that a per-checkpoint lives system would discourage exploration (especially after having died once or twice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
- Rather than capping the player to a certain number of lives, perhaps excess lives could be converted into continues? [...]
With the (exact) system that I was proposing, there wouldn't be excess lives. No 1-ups, no lives from 100 rings, et cetera, just a flat 5 (or 10 or such) attempts per checkpoint.

But with slight deviations to allow collecting lives in a level (without keeping them permanently/across levels), yes, something like this could be the case; However, it should be noted that SRB2 (currently) has infinite Continues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
- Rather than checkpoints refilling lives, perhaps reaching a checkpoint for the first time could reward you with some additional score? If combined with the idea of goal signs rewarding continues for score, this would cause checkpoints to contribute towards gaining continues.
While rewarding the player for reaching checkpoints sounds nice, this way essentially adds up to gaining, say, one "guaranteed" Continue per level (maybe more/less depending on how many checkpoints are in a level), which I'm not sure is what you intended it to feel like for the player.

Responses to Stonecutter:
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonecutter View Post
[...] Also, the fixed lives-per-checkpoint system does not eliminate struggling or frustration, it merely spreads out the struggle a little more and reduces the stress related to underdog scenarios.
I wasn't suggesting that it would eliminate the struggling or frustration entirely, only that it would avoid the player potentially having to restart a level with less lives than they originally started it with. That is the primary thing that I dislike about accumulable lives systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonecutter View Post
The game wasn't forcing you to replay Oil Ocean. You did not have to keep playing Oil Ocean. Most of the game takes place prior to Oil Ocean, and you probably enjoyed most of it, no? If you were given the option to skip Oil Ocean and jump straight into Lava Reef, would you have chosen it? Would the following levels and bosses really have been more fun to play in that situation, or would Mirage Saloon or Studiopolis have been more fun instead?
In a "linear"-progression game like Sonic Mania (or SRB2), as in that you play through levels one by one in order with no option to replay previous levels (before completion), I've never considered restarting a whole campaign due to getting stuck on one of the levels.

But to answer your question, no, I would not have skipped Oil Ocean if I could. I'd also not have replayed earlier levels with the intent of improving my skill (though maybe to get all Chaos Emeralds or grind for dozens of extra lives, though?).
I would just want to beat Oil Ocean, and starting act 1 with 3 lives when I couldn't beat act 2's last segment with 10+ lives is just unhelpful in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonecutter View Post
Keep in mind though, that game overs in a game with accumulating lives are suggestions to restart the game, and that you were the one making yourself play through Oil Ocean so much, not the game. [...]
The game never offered me that option (outside of me being able to delete my save file and start over if I wish, but it never asked or suggested me to do so).
But even if it did, again, I'd probably still just want to keep playing Oil Ocean and try to beat it, even if I was struggling a lot.
Zwip-Zwap Zapony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #43
CobaltBW
Community Noise Maker
Developer
 
CobaltBW's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katmint View Post
punishment is entirely arbitrary anyways so an option for infinite lives is good to have just to be respectful of the player's time

i don't like the idea of locking certain rewards to playing with lives on since that kind of defeats the purpose of making it a choice

the primary practical issue is that something will need to be done about the lives already placed in levels while playing with infinite lives mode on. i'm not really sure what to do about those, since if you make them give a different reward (such as score) that could actively incentivise playing with infinite lives
Basically, yeah. I'm thinking the only way the issue could be fixed without upending shit is if we technically kept the lives system in place but changed the function it served in normal playthroughs. There's so few levers to pull in terms of progression mechanics at this point that I can't think of what else we would even use them for.


EDIT: Actually, what you just mentioned regarding score gave me an idea. 50000 score gives players a 1up. So you could technically replace lives with 50000 score bonuses entirely, since they would have the same value in both modes, plus the extra incentive of gaining a 1up in no-save modes.
__________________
~CobaltBW

Check out my soundcloud profile for music stuff

Last edited by CobaltBW; 1 Week Ago at 08:31 PM.
CobaltBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #44
Tatsuru
2.3 will have menus
Moderator
 
Tatsuru's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrakid Wolfo View Post
Because YOU think something we all think it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrakid Wolfo View Post
But I don't think the lives system is a problem.
Why are you going for the necks of people who think the lives system is a problem then? Tone down your hostility several levels. You've already made your points clear (haven't you?) so try to come back only when you have something else new to add.
__________________
don't care didn't ask plus you put player code in mobjthinker hooks
Tatsuru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #45
MedicInDisquise
 
MedicInDisquise's Avatar
Default

Created an account just to talk about this. Personally, I think removing the lives system is a bad idea for me, mostly because of two thoughts:
1. Sonic is already a lenient game. Rings provide potentially infinite hits, as they are plentiful and easily reacquired after getting hit. Instant death hazards are rare and only start appearing after CEZ, roughly halfway through the game. Crushers don't appear until ERZ. Continues, with patches to 2.2, now place you at the beginning of the act instead of the zone, so now using them isn't as painful as before.
2. Without lives, a tangible reward for exploration and high scores disappear. Exploration rewards rings, shields, emblems, and tokens. But outside of rings not all of them are always useful rewards. But a life is always a good reward for the player to find. Meanwhile the only reward for a high score, asides from emblems, is lives and continues.
Lives serve to punish bad players, and reward good players. While I don't think that some sort of easy mode (like in Sonic Jam?) or infinite lives mode is a bad idea, I do think leaving the game without an equivalent punishment/reward is a bad idea. Part of the fun of SRB2 (for me anyways) is trying to see how far you can go in a campaign and how well you can play through the stages, and without a life system that feeling is devalued. How am I supposed to know how bad I am if I don't lose game over twice to Azure Temple Zone?! :P
MedicInDisquise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #46
GrayAngel
 
GrayAngel's Avatar
Default

Yeah, looking at how Forces handled taking away lives, it kinda made rings worthless. They throw so many rings at you, but they feel so worthless. If they did have lives, you'd be getting a ton of them constantly, but at least there would still be a reward for collecting them. If you're going to take away lives, there needs to still be a reason to collect rings. Maybe you can retain the rings you have at the end of the level, collecting them to spend on items?

Maybe for a Chao Gar--

GrayAngel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #47
Snowy
PersistantRubine
 
Snowy's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
Actually, what you just mentioned regarding score gave me an idea. 50000 score gives players a 1up. So you could technically replace lives with 50000 score bonuses entirely, since they would have the same value in both modes, plus the extra incentive of gaining a 1up in no-save modes.
Technically, yes. However, this also leads to score bloat and doesn't answer the new issue of making exploring for them feel worthwhile. If it's, say, a no-save mode like Ultimate Mode or a 'hard' mode, then it works out well because you're in such a large amount of risk. How-ev-er, this also comes to the issue of- again- what's the point?

Score isn't as tangible as a life, and without lives, score only exists to look pretty. I do see promise in this thought though, and want to suggest that, if this route WAS taken, perhaps there could be overall 'score' emblems to hit- When you reach a set amount of score in a single run on a no-save mode, you gain an emblem. This can happen multiple times, and would encourage the use of a no-save difficulty- As the player will already be more careful in looking for things, they'll also be seeking out items and, inevitably, find score monitors- so even if they don't win the no-save run, the score monitors will hopefully ensure that, assuming they do better each run, they get at least one emblem for their troubles via reaching the next score requirement.
__________________
TOGETHER we can show the world what we can do!
You are giving me a little mania!
Snowy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #48
Rafael44642
 
Rafael44642's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
Technically, yes. However, this also leads to score bloat and doesn't answer the new issue of making exploring for them feel worthwhile. If it's, say, a no-save mode like Ultimate Mode or a 'hard' mode, then it works out well because you're in such a large amount of risk. How-ev-er, this also comes to the issue of- again- what's the point?

Score isn't as tangible as a life, and without lives, score only exists to look pretty. I do see promise in this thought though, and want to suggest that, if this route WAS taken, perhaps there could be overall 'score' emblems to hit- When you reach a set amount of score in a single run on a no-save mode, you gain an emblem. This can happen multiple times, and would encourage the use of a no-save difficulty- As the player will already be more careful in looking for things, they'll also be seeking out items and, inevitably, find score monitors- so even if they don't win the no-save run, the score monitors will hopefully ensure that, assuming they do better each run, they get at least one emblem for their troubles via reaching the next score requirement.
The score emblem was a thing in 2.1 but got removed in later releases (and tbh im glad they did that, the emblems were just too hard for me to get them).

As for the lives, if they were removed then what would be the purpose for the XTRAA0 sprites to even exist? I mean, yeah sure they can appear when you press tab in multiplayer and intermission but still, it would be pointless on singleplayer mode and it would not feel like a classic game for me. Continue sprites would also be unecesary since you can't lose by losing lives and yeah, i agree that it would only be usefull in ultimate Mode since in that Mode you die instantly just because you only have one life. The game itself is already good, but maybe since you've spoke about getting extra lives by using continues could be balanced if when one continue is used, you would get just 5 lives. But yeah, i don't mean harm to anyone, it's just that i think it would be a bad idea to remove it too.
Rafael44642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #49
Spiky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
Technically, yes. However, this also leads to score bloat and doesn't answer the new issue of making exploring for them feel worthwhile. If it's, say, a no-save mode like Ultimate Mode or a 'hard' mode, then it works out well because you're in such a large amount of risk. How-ev-er, this also comes to the issue of- again- what's the point?

Score isn't as tangible as a life, and without lives, score only exists to look pretty. I do see promise in this thought though, and want to suggest that, if this route WAS taken, perhaps there could be overall 'score' emblems to hit- When you reach a set amount of score in a single run on a no-save mode, you gain an emblem. This can happen multiple times, and would encourage the use of a no-save difficulty- As the player will already be more careful in looking for things, they'll also be seeking out items and, inevitably, find score monitors- so even if they don't win the no-save run, the score monitors will hopefully ensure that, assuming they do better each run, they get at least one emblem for their troubles via reaching the next score requirement.
Agreed. If 1-up monitors are replaced with something else, I'd rather the new thing still rewarded players from a gameplay standpoint. Score doesn't give players any advantages or rewards that affect the actual gameplay, it's just a number.

I wouldn't mind if they were replaced with more emblems, as emblems actually award players with gameplay-related rewards such as bonus levels, unlockables, etc.
Spiky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #50
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicInDisquise View Post
Sonic is already a lenient game. Rings provide potentially infinite hits, as they are plentiful and easily reacquired after getting hit. Instant death hazards are rare and only start appearing after CEZ, roughly halfway through the game. Crushers don't appear until ERZ. Continues, with patches to 2.2, now place you at the beginning of the act instead of the zone, so now using them isn't as painful as before.
Crushers appear in THZ2, though avoiding them is fairly simple they do still count. They also count as an instant death mechanic in the level design, so technically that point within your post is wrong.

I do generally agree with your post though, and I actually see what I just stated in the previous paragraph as a point in favor of lives. By throwing deadly but manageable level hazards at the player early on, the player is told by the level design that they should watch their surroundings carefully and don't just rush through the levels full speed without knowing what they are doing. The classic games on Genesis/Mega Drive did something similar in their level design where speed was something that was earned, not handed out like candy. You had to learn the level design, plan out the most optimal route to take, and then stick to it while knowing when to spin, when to jump, when to bounce off something, etc. Your first time through, you weren't expected to be able to pull this off very much.

By encouraging players to slow down, players are also encouraged to watch their surroundings, which will help with memorizing the level layout so that in repeat playthroughs they can remember which paths they didn't take before, and work their way up towards the fabled "Perfect run". By taking away lives, this is replaced by a carelessness that will cause players to become more reckless and die more often, and to explore less. There wouldn't be a reason to proceed carefully because the player would only ever get sent back to the last checkpoint, infinitely, until they reach the next checkpoint through what would likely be pure luck rather than having actually learned anything or improved. Progression would be inevitable as long as the player keeps trying again, rarely actually earned. Therefore, the player would likely get stuck again soon after as the levels get even harder but their own skill hasn't improved, leading to the same cycle of dying over and over until they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
EDIT: Actually, what you just mentioned regarding score gave me an idea. 50000 score gives players a 1up. So you could technically replace lives with 50000 score bonuses entirely, since they would have the same value in both modes, plus the extra incentive of gaining a 1up in no-save modes.
That would be incredibly pointless. The score system largely exists as a method of getting more 1-ups. Take away lives and score becomes a pointless number that doesn't do anything. 50000 score would have equal value to 0 score, and as such most players wouldn't find it worthwhile to seek these "score capsules", or to ever have more than 1 ring at a time other than for transforming, etc.

The ring situation is actually worth bringing up. The only two reasons the player ever has for collecting more than 1 ring are to get 1-ups for collecting 100 of them, or to be able to transform while playing as a character that can after collecting 50 rings and all 7 emeralds. With no lives system, rings also lose value. A player without a full collection of emeralds might as well just grab a ring and hold onto just that ring for the entire stage, as it will act as a potentially infinite number of hits on just it's own, and it's easier to pick up one dropped ring than a whole bundle of them.

Personally, I think the game is fine as it is now, though I do see value in finding a compromise. The main problem is that there are very real reasons for why the classic games implemented lives systems other than just "to make things harder", and they are so woven into the core design mentality of the games that SRB2 is trying to emulate that one doesn't simply remove them without breaking many other critical aspects of the game. They need to be replaced with something that can serve the same purpose so that the other systems within the game that rely on them don't also lose their value and the core experience doesn't break down as a result.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #51
BlueSmoke
Aliases: Mr. Awesome, Deion
 
BlueSmoke's Avatar
Default

You could give scores more purpose? Like, maybe unlockables for finishing the game with specific scores?
BlueSmoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #52
Pyrakid Wolfo
 
Pyrakid Wolfo's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatsuru View Post
Why are you going for the necks of people who think the lives system is a problem then? Tone down your hostility several levels. You've already made your points clear (haven't you?) so try to come back only when you have something else new to add.
Look I get that maybe i sounded hostile but he literally said "Deep down we all agree with what I think is true". I could have said my disagreement much nicer though. Case closed.
__________________
The man who's made 10 HUD mods with a small amount of installs and comments.
Pyrakid Wolfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago   #53
TehRealSalt
(σᴥσ)
Judge
 
TehRealSalt's Avatar
Default

Haven't really read much of the thread but I've always had this opinion. While the thread's about SRB2, this does apply to all game design for me.



I think lives can be a really good design tool, and I like the concept of them. They encourage mastery of content. Every time you redo, you've gotten a little better. Ideally, the content you were struggling on to get to that point should feel a little easier. And because you're a little better, you're rewarded with more lives to attempt the part you originally Game Over'd on. In the right game, it can actually teach the player how to improve more than just letting the player slam their face into the same challenge over and over and over again until they eventually make it. Because of this, I don't think lives should be there to make the game harder, but to encourage mastery & better learning. I think that it is completely intentional that once you have mastered the game lives stop mattering.

There's also all of the other points people are bringing up, like how lives give value to score, and anything that gives score like rings, speedrunning, or destroying enemies.



However, the consequences of lives need to be carefully considered when adding them. Specifically, checkpoint frequency. How intense/difficult is the content, and how much content do you need to redo? Lives is basically a resource management meta-game on top, so it can also make a difficult game feel even more grueling. In any game with lives, I feel like the maximum amount of content you will need to redo shouldn't be any more than 10 minutes, tops. SRB2's case is complicated because you can tear through even its most complex stages within minutes, but a first time play-through can take way longer, especially if the player is exploring.

Since I see lives as a teaching tool, and not something to spice up the game for veterans, then I think it should be measuring a slow playthrough, not a fast one. Thus, I don't think SRB2's design as it is now is a good fit for lives. The later levels' difficulty can be downright mean compared to other games, notably ERZ. ERZ2 on its own is a 5 minute speedrun ... a first time playthrough can end up being half an hour! That's way too much to expect a new player to redo from the start for how difficult that level is!



So I'd say it depends on where the game goes from here. As it stands, it just feels like tradition. If stages stay just as sprawling, massive, and the game still gets hard as nails toward the end anyway, then I think that lives don't really fit anymore. However, if STJr wants to put more careful thought into how much a player would need to redo at any given time, then I would welcome lives, because I do think they add incentive to many game mechanics.



Spoiler:
This is more of a miscellaneous point that doesn't really change my opinion, but I will also mention that I think lives are a good way to keep Coop moving, because of the waiting for someone slamming their face against something after everyone's already finished. With infinite (or lots of) lives, it either ends half an hour later, or after "<Sonic> please put in exitlevel" :V
__________________
Twitter | Not super interested in SRB2 anymore, just working on SRB2Kart and my indie game over at Patreon
TehRealSalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.