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Old 07-21-2006   #41
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http://www.sepwich.com/ssntails/mb/viewtopic.php?t=3763

seriously, cant you look yourself? (sorry, im just in a bad mood right now, lots of stuff is going on with my life)
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Old 07-21-2006   #42
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oh sorry. :D
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Old 07-21-2006   #43
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Originally Posted by Flame_the_hedgehog
um... i have working rails... (and i dont know how these are supposed to work Digiku)
It's a joke. :P
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Old 07-29-2006   #44
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Originally Posted by Mystic
Rails really don't add anything to gameplay. Honestly.

I don't understand why everyone liked grinding at all. It, in gameplay terms, acts like running, only with the added restriction of not being able to choose directions. SRB2 isn't about forcing the player onto a set path. If you wanna go backwards through SRB2's stages, go for it. You wanna explore the stages, go for it. You wanna blast through the optimal path going at full throttle, go for it.

Rails inherently force the player down a specific line of the stage, and in a forward-only direction. It's an addition to SA2 that mainly helps to appeal to younger players by looking "cool", as well as aiding in making the levels feel more directed by forcing them to go forward on a set path. Why would you want a gimmicky feature that simply makes levels more linear and less interactive? Why would you want a feature that simply encourages bad level design?
Think about it. Rails can ADD to gameplay. Rails don't force you anywhere; you have the option of whether or not to jump on them, and you can jump off at any time. In fact, you might be able to hide some hidden items or stuff like that in SRB2 by having a rail going down to a platform down below, and there's a platform in the wall on the way down that you can't reach unless you jump off the rail at the perfect time. Rails might make the game linear, but in the end it's all about how you use them.

EDIT: And "forward-only"? Almost correct; you can go backwards on them too.
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Old 07-29-2006   #45
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If you weren't blind you'd notice that SRB2 was designed to emulate the classic games. We aren't trying to make a stupid Sonic Heroes clone (God forbid). The Adventure stuff is only there as proof-of-concept.
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Old 07-29-2006   #46
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I'm aware of that, as well as the reasons that grinding will not be included in the final version of SRB2. However, if grinding eventually became possible (like that'd ever happen >_>), those are some reasons that it might be implemented, although in the long run it's better for SRB2 to leave it out. Still, it COULD add to gameplay, if SRB2 were to use them, which is definitely not going to happen. Also, whoever mentioned Sonic Heroes? No way is SRB2 going to be anything like Heroes.
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Old 07-30-2006   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolzipop
Think about it. Rails can ADD to gameplay. Rails don't force you anywhere; you have the option of whether or not to jump on them, and you can jump off at any time. In fact, you might be able to hide some hidden items or stuff like that in SRB2 by having a rail going down to a platform down below, and there's a platform in the wall on the way down that you can't reach unless you jump off the rail at the perfect time. Rails might make the game linear, but in the end it's all about how you use them.
Rails do not accomplish anything a normal platform cannot accomplish. For instance, if you wanted to do something similar in SRB2, you could make a water current push the player, and they could reach a powerup if they jumped out at the correct time. Part of what makes SRB2 good is that if the player wants to attempt something different from what the designers intend, the game is not going to stop them. Rails, especially rails over bottomless pits (Stupid Final Rush), remove that feature from the game. Essentially, the player is forced down a specific line where he has to follow a set path.

Even if the rails are optional, they're surely going to be part of the optimal line through the stage, which means time attack or race will be inherently boring, as it removes most all of the movement commands from the game. I mean, watch someone good play a stage in SA2. Then watch someone else good play SA2. In all likelihood, the run will look nearly the same, because of all the forced sections, where the player has to grind a rail or otherwise cannot change directions, such as those stupid enemy homing attack pathways. Now watch someone good play SRB2. Then watch someone else good play SRB2. While a lot of areas will look similar, they will most certainly deviate in their methods and paths a bit as they try and take a line that works the best for them. This is what rails remove from the game, and honestly, I refuse to even consider to add a feature that encourages bad level design. Instead of using rails, might I suggest current or wind to force the player to move forward?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolzipop
EDIT: And "forward-only"? Almost correct; you can go backwards on them too.
Well, in most of the modern Sonic games you can only go forward on them, because the camera will glitch up if you try to go backwards anywhere in any section of the stage.

However, 2 directions, while better than 1, is still MUCH worse than the full range of movement you get while walking. Rails, by design, are a restrictive game mechanic that removes player freedom. This is not a problem in Sonic Adventure 2, as there wasn't any player freedom to begin with, but in SRB2, it's just a bad idea, through and through.
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Old 07-30-2006   #48
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It's actually possible to use the rails as part of decent level design. I mean, it can be one of multiple paths towards a goal, it can be a way to get to certain hidden areas in a level (It's far easier to hide a rail than it is to hide giant sector-pathways.). They have potential, just not very obvious ones. And, yes, some levels can work with a bit of restriction here and there, as long as it's not terribly long. You don't need paths piled on paths for a good level.
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Old 07-30-2006   #49
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Mystic:

Quote:
Think about it. Rails can ADD to gameplay. Rails don't force you anywhere; you have the option of whether or not to jump on them, and you can jump off at any time. In fact, you might be able to hide some hidden items or stuff like that in SRB2 by having a rail going down to a platform down below, and there's a platform in the wall on the way down that you can't reach unless you jump off the rail at the perfect time. Rails might make the game linear, but in the end it's all about how you use them.
You only wrote about how rails are bad, not how they can improve the game. If SRB2 were to include rails, they wouldn't have to be EXACTLY like SA2's rails; SRB2 might, say, work in a feature so the rail splits into paths and you go down whichever path you're leaning towards. You wrote about how rails can be bad if they're over bottomless pits, how they force a player in one direction, etc. You also talked about SA2 a lot. We're not talking about SA2, we're talking about SRB2. Rails COULD have been better in SA2, true; but SRB2 could improve SA2's rails. Also, Dark Warrior had a good point; you CAN hide rails much easier than you could hide platforms or openings in the wall.

You said something about currents and wind; rails would work a little better than that. Say you had a hole in the wall with a current down the hallway the hole is in. If you were going through the hall assisted by the current or wind, you might notice the hole in the wall just as you get to it, and it's too late to go into it. If you had a rail instead, you would be able to go at whatever speed you want to go at instead of a set speed determined by the current or wind. If you noticed the hole but didn't get in, it would be easier to go back on a rail than it would be to go back through a current or wind.

I suppose in conclusion, rails are a good idea, but haven't been used to their full potential in the official Sonic games, and they aren't right for SRB2. SRB2 is intended to emulate the fun of the 2D games, but when you think about it the 2D games didn't have the Speed Thok either. Plus they DID allow Sonic to use special abilities when he has certain types of shields (in Sonic 3, at least), which was a great idea not present in SRB2 right now. So SRB2, while intended to be like the 2D games, doesn't have to be exactly like them.
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Old 07-30-2006   #50
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Rather than reading all those uberposts, I'm just going to say this. Rails add about as much to gameplay as Zoom Tubes. The only real difference is that Zoom Tubes are a major pain in the **** to add.
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Old 08-18-2006   #51
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Make them Spin Dash through loops. Also, would the Super Peel Out (aka the Strike Dash) be possible?
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Old 08-18-2006   #52
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rails, rails i always hated them. they had far too much rail grinding in sonic heroes, it drove me mad :? :( :wink:???
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Old 08-18-2006   #53
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True. I just completed Rail Canyon/Bullet Station, and I must say, while some of the rail segments were fun, parts where you're expected to land on them, or get on them above bottomless pits with very little room for error, all prove to be nothing but tedium.

Fortunately, level design for THIS game is much less linear (well, necessarily linear), which is much, much better.
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Old 08-18-2006   #54
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You make it sound as if Rail Canyon/Bullet Station is hard. It really isn't. I mean, sure, accuracy is needed to land on rails, but it's not a terrible effort. And most of the time, the game does all the angling for you. There really isn't much work involved there.
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Old 08-18-2006   #55
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eh. rail grinding became much less fun after SA2. It actually took skill to do it there, and it seemed so much more realistic; then they made it so you can't fall off in heroes without getting hit by something. Bah.
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Old 08-19-2006   #56
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The hardest rail grinding part for me to figure out is when you have to dodge all the laserbeams on the last level in Heroes.

Although I beat the game a while ago.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #57
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He didn't ask if rails are good or not, but rather about how to implement them.
Anyways, even thought I have almost no knowledge at all about how SRB2's code works, maybe we could tweak a bit the mine karts from ACZ to make them work like grinds? They already work pretty much like grinds anyway.
EDIT: whoa didn't really notice at first this thread wasn't touched since 2006 xD

Last edited by ffoxD; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:24 PM.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffoxD View Post
He didn't ask if rails are good or not, but rather about how to implement them.
Anyways, even thought I have almost no knowledge at all about how SRB2's code works, maybe we could tweak a bit the mine karts from ACZ to make them work like grinds? They already work pretty much like grinds anyway.
EDIT: whoa didn't really notice at first this thread wasn't touched since 2006 xD
That's some epic bump right here.




But honestly it would go against the spirit of Classic Sonic's level design (and it's probably too complicated for something that won't be that fun to do)
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffoxD View Post
He didn't ask if rails are good or not, but rather about how to implement them.
Anyways, even thought I have almost no knowledge at all about how SRB2's code works, maybe we could tweak a bit the mine karts from ACZ to make them work like grinds? They already work pretty much like grinds anyway.
EDIT: whoa didn't really notice at first this thread wasn't touched since 2006 xD
This isn't about rails for a train, I think; they are talking about the rail ring, which makes the most sense for the thread's time, there wasn't a rail section at the time.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
This is SRB2. We intend to emulate the classic Sonic games. There are no rails, and for that matter, no light dash in the main part of SRB2. You wanna make ridiculous lightdash chains for weird effects, feel free, but we just added lightdash to prove that technical issues is not the reason we do not include it in the game.

I assure you, though, that real grinding will never be included in SRB2. It was always kinda pointless, and would require more sprites to create, so it's not going to happen.



Yeah, Mystic already answered this thread ages ago.
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