SRB2 Message Board  

Go Back   SRB2 Message Board > Sonic Robo Blast 2 > SRB2 Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-18-2020   #6381
Zanda_Sama
Default

Add TIMEBONUS and SCOREBONUS and PERFECTBONUS options for SOC

HUDITEM SCOREBONUSNUM, HUDITEM TIMEBONUSNUM, and PERFECTBONUSNUM etc. would be a very nice edition. I *really* need this edition. Basically these would allow you to change where the numbers show up, so if you're making an HUD modification, you could make the numbers more to the left to be inside your HUD.
I also want TIMEBONUS, SCOREBONUS, and PERFECTBONUS options for SOC, to make the position of those modifiable just like RINGS and RINGSNUM.

Example:
HUDITEM SCOREBONUSNUM
X = [much lower than original value]
Y = Same

Would make the SCOREBONUS numbers slightly closer to the actual SCOREBONUS.
It would go from THIS

SCORE BONUS : _______________56100

to THIS

SCORE BONUS : _____56100

Last edited by Zanda_Sama; 03-18-2020 at 12:29 AM.
Zanda_Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2020   #6382
Moose the Fat Cat
 
Moose the Fat Cat's Avatar
Default

Emerald Tokens and Super Sonic

Once you have all 7 Emeralds, I think finding an emerald token should be an automatic 50 rings, rather than a continue, at least for Sonic. That's how the special stage rings worked in S3K, which remains the game that's most fun to replay with all emeralds.

I think it'd be cool if every character had a super form. I've read Mystic's post explaining why it's limited to Sonic, because Super Sonic is essentially a separate character, and if all Super forms work the same, there's no point in taking away the unique abilities already offered by Tails/Knuckles/Fang/Amy. In other words, once you've collected the emeralds as Sonic, there's no point in doing it again unless you want to (as I discovered after gaining them all as Knuckles).

So my suggestion is that each Super form also be given the power of one of the shields as a permanent secondary (jump+spin) ability, with only Super Sonic gaining hover.

Super Sonic = Elemental shield. (Jump+spin remains hover). It's just about the passive additives here; when he spindashes, there's a fire trail, so that's automatically cool and appropriate. Most importantly, the character most susceptible to drowning is able to breath underwater/in space. This is a departure from Super Sonic in the original titles, but then so is hovering. I think Super Sonic should feel as close to god/debug mode as possible. As it is now, I don't really play as Super Sonic more than maybe a few times in levels outside of Greenhill.

Super Tails = Wind shield (jump+spin is the boost jump like the shield)

Super Knuckles = Magnet shield (jump+spin is homing attack like the shield)

Super Amy = Elemental shield (jump+spin is a downward blast like the shield)

Super Fang = Double-shield (jump+spin stops momentum mid-jump like the shield)

Super Metal = Nuclear shield (jump+spin blasts the screen like the shield)


What about shield boxes?

Bopping a shield box means that, once you run out of rings and are depowered, you will have that shield in your regular form.

If the shield's passive abilities are additive to your super form, you gain that power. So for example, Super Knuckles bounces on an elemental shield, he'll now also be able to breath underwater and flames will trail his dash, as rings also fly to him and he's able to target enemies.

Isn't that too overpowered? Yes. That's the point! Replaying a complete file with all emeralds should open up the option to zip through in "god/debug" mode. The player has earned it!

And again, it's optional. If you don't want to play as Super, simply don't jump+spin without a shield and don't activate it!

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 03-18-2020 at 01:10 AM.
Moose the Fat Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2020   #6383
Krabs
 
Krabs's Avatar
Default

Let players change characters in multiplayer matches when character changing is restricted without having to switch to spectator first. Just automatically kill the player if they do so.

When rings respawn, display the sparkle sprite for half a second before they respawn

Last edited by Krabs; 03-18-2020 at 05:24 PM.
Krabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2020   #6384
Zanda_Sama
Default

How about Teams have multiple colors, for example...

Team Blue Colors

-Aqua
-Azure
-Blue
-Bluebell
-Cyan
-Cerulean
-Cobalt
-Cornflower
-Dusk
-Icy
-Sky
-Sapphire
-Teal
-Vapor
-Wave

Team Red Colors

-Crimson
-Flame
-Ketchup
-Red
-Ruby
-Salmon
Zanda_Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2020   #6385
Spiky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
Once you have all 7 Emeralds, I think finding an emerald token should be an automatic 50 rings, rather than a continue, at least for Sonic.
I disagree, I like being able to max out continues after getting all Emeralds.
Spiky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6386
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiky View Post
I disagree, I like being able to max out continues after getting all Emeralds.
Honestly I prefer the classic method of earning continues, doing so both in special stages (Which we do currently anyway) and via score at the end of each act. This would also be a nice compromise for this particular issue.

Though, I can't think of any reason why it has to be one or the other. Why not grant 50 rings and a continue when you pick up a token with all 7 emeralds? This way they are useful regardless of how skilled you are at the game. Even if you don't need continues on account of being an experienced veteran, you still have reason to seek them out.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6387
Mystic
チェン!
 
Mystic's Avatar
Default

The reason it's not 50 rings, as stated many times, is because a goal in the future is to change normal gameplay such that if record attack requirements are met, you earn record attack emblems and replays are saved. Thus, as time goes on we're trying to make things that disrupt that go away so we can implement that.
Mystic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6388
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The reason it's not 50 rings, as stated many times, is because a goal in the future is to change normal gameplay such that if record attack requirements are met, you earn record attack emblems and replays are saved. Thus, as time goes on we're trying to make things that disrupt that go away so we can implement that.
If you are going after Emerald Tokens to turn super easily, you obviously aren't going after Record Attack Emblems. If you really want to implement such a feature, you could just make it so picking up one of the Tokens while all 7 emeralds are in your possession disqualifies you from getting the Record Attack emblems and creating replay data. The tokens are out of the way enough that they shouldn't get in the way if someone is just trying to collect rings normally for the ring based emblems.

This could even easily be made clear by text appearing on the screen when you attempt it, stating something like "Record Attack content is disabled when you collect an Emerald Token with all 7 Emeralds".

Personally though, I really don't get why the two modes need to overlap. I can understand the temptation of giving emblems if requirements are met just to make the process faster, but by trying to enforce the Record Attack ruleset into normal gameplay you are inevitably going to introduce limitations that hurt the enjoyment factor for people who simply don't care about Record Attack or already have the emblems associated with it and just want to play with the familiar ruleset of the Classic games, or even just previous versions of SRB2. The rings when collecting Emerald Tokens is probably the biggest example.

Honestly if the overlap does need to happen, I would prefer it be dedicated to a toggle rather than something strictly enforced for everyone. Hell, you can even make it enabled by default, and lock disabling it behind a console command or something. Make it so that it's only ever disabled if someone really wants it to be. The fact of the matter is the 50 rings when collecting Emerald Tokens from previous versions of the game is not only familiar, but infinitely more convenient for experienced players than continues they're never going to use, and removing the option entirely just makes it so that said veterans have zero reason to ever go after emerald tokens after they have all the emeralds, and as such makes the game a whole lot less fun.

You want the game to be beginner friendly, and that's fine. Just please for the love of god don't alienate your existing playerbase in the process. Toggles aren't a bad thing.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6389
Mystic
チェン!
 
Mystic's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
You want the game to be beginner friendly, and that's fine. Just please for the love of god don't alienate your existing playerbase in the process. Toggles aren't a bad thing.
Hold up a second here. You are equating changing a tiny, minor part of the game with alienating our existing player base. I assure you we just pushed a release, 2.2, which changed absurd amounts of the game and has tons of things that will alienate existing players, like slopes, replaced graphics, and more. That is a terrible argument.

Toggles are for things that are genuinely important to have both ways. Control options are toggles. Camera control features are toggles. The behavior of a single item in a single situation does not warrant a toggle.

I'm sorry that you do not like the idea of being able to just play the game and have record attack replays record and earn emblems for doing so. I know a lot of people would absolutely love for the game to do that, as that is a commonly requested thing, sometimes in this very thread, and not just to make the game "beginner friendly", but for experienced players. I very much would love to be allowed to perfect bonus in any mode and have it count, for example.

It's okay to strongly feel something we're doing is wrong and argue against it, but don't use hyperbole to do so. It's annoying at best and doesn't help your argument at all.
Mystic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6390
Unknownlight
 
Unknownlight's Avatar
Default

As an experienced user of the game, Record Attack records and replays being saved during normal gameplay sounds absolutely fantastic. I look forward to it.
Unknownlight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6391
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
Hold up a second here. You are equating changing a tiny, minor part of the game with alienating our existing player base. I assure you we just pushed a release, 2.2, which changed absurd amounts of the game and has tons of things that will alienate existing players, like slopes, replaced graphics, and more. That is a terrible argument.

It's okay to strongly feel something we're doing is wrong and argue against it, but don't use hyperbole to do so. It's annoying at best and doesn't help your argument at all.
It's not just this one thing. It's a tendency I have been noticing in general. There's been a general unwillingness to compromise on a number of controversial subjects, many of which have to do with veteran players being opposed to changes that were made specifically to benefit newer players. It gives me the impression as though there's an agenda to bring in newer players, which again is fine. I just don't like how it seems like this agenda takes priority to the point of removing features or rendering them moot for the sake of appealing to the less experienced at the potential expense of those who are more experienced.

For example, in the control toggle options, The "Legacy" toggle doesn't actually quite emulate how the game played back in the legacy days. When this was brought up in the topic discussing it, I remember you saying something along the lines of "If a new player can find a way to enable a toggle that will make their experience worse, they probably will". There's a number of other instances in which this trend has continued.

Things like slopes and revamped graphics aren't really anything that have to do with alienating anyone, and I have no idea why you even brought that up. I can't think of any reason why anyone would feel alienated by the game looking prettier and having slopes.

The general feeling I have been getting lately is that it's almost as if you are afraid of newer players accidentally enabling something intended for more advanced players and then leaving a negative review, or something along those lines. That's why I stress the importance of how toggles aren't a negative thing. If a player somehow manages to find the perfect combination of toggles to sour their experience, I firmly believe that it's their own fault for doing so, and anyone with a working brain viewing such a review will understand this.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6392
Mystic
チェン!
 
Mystic's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
The "Legacy" toggle doesn't actually quite emulate how the game played back in the legacy days.
This was stated to be because the name of the option isn't accurate. It's not intended to be exactly as it used to be. It's intended to mean "directionchar off" more than anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
When this was brought up in the topic discussing it, I remember you saying something along the lines of "If a new player can find a way to enable a toggle that will make their experience worse, they probably will". There's a number of other instances in which this trend has continued.
This is because, in testing, we have found this to be the case. What you're misunderstanding is that there is a real cost to options. We can't just make everything an option to serve everyone, for a lot of reasons. While this isn't an exhaustive list, here are just a few of the reasons:
  • Options that are not regularly used become buggy over time because they're not being actively maintained.
  • Options that are incredibly niche are a waste of developer time and energy making when they only serve a tiny number of players.
  • Options bloat leads to confusion as to what the options even do.
  • Options that look initially appealing can be hazardous to new players because they will enable them without realizing the downside, frequently not even knowing that their frustration is being caused by the option they enabled earlier.
Making something an option is simply not a solution to most disagreements. I know a lot of people here really like saying it is, but having pages and pages of options isn't going to help anyone and would waste a lot of development time on niche junk that isn't important. This goes way beyond just new player misunderstanding, although that's certainly one factor that can cause an option to be removed or not considered for addition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
Things like slopes and revamped graphics aren't really anything that have to do with alienating anyone, and I have no idea why you even brought that up. I can't think of any reason why anyone would feel alienated by the game looking prettier and having slopes.
People feel alienated by every change we make. Every change. Your argument doesn't hold water because I have heard complaints about literally everything we've done, including things that are overwhelmingly positive. Just because the vast majority of people rightfully think that slopes and revamped graphics are an improvement does not mean that there aren't people who are still super butthurt about SSN Sonic and Tails being removed, for example.

When you're complaining about something so minor alienating players, it just feels stupid when we've made so many incredibly huge changes that are far more likely to be problematic in comparison.

This isn't a fight between new players and experienced players. I firmly believe that many of the changes we've made to help new players in 2.2 have been beneficial to our long-time players and huge amounts of feedback have backed up that belief firmly. Do not reduce the reasons why we have chosen answers you don't like dismissively. The actual reasons why decisions are made are generally complicated and not something that can be answered in a single sentence.
Mystic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6393
Moose the Fat Cat
 
Moose the Fat Cat's Avatar
Default

That makes sense, re: emblem tokens. Sounds like a cool feature!

The more I've been replaying the game, the more I find Super Sonic to be more of a hindrance in actual gameplay anyway; I like getting the emeralds because I like the special stages now that I'm pretty good at getting them and finding enough tokens by Deep Sea. It's cool to have the extra jump power and speed, but I'm more likely to shoot myself off course and die than recover with the hover. I die a lot more in Arid Canyon when I go Super.

Speaking of toggles, I have this suggestion!

Toggle "Thokk" or "Homing" for Sonic's jump power, and "Spin Dash" or "Boost/Slide"

MotdSpork's Modern Sonic mod has made replaying the campaign so much fun, and it's had the byproduct effect of making me play better as other characters more. When I go back to classic Sonic, I'm able to more confidently make jumps and hit angles more precisely than I was with the character before playing Modern Sonic, because I've been playing it more.

The double jump and homing attack is a dream in navigation and recovery, and it makes the game so much easier to go non-stop and never lose momentum. It's such a great feeling, and those abilities are faster and more fun than Tails or Knuckles... I enjoy those characters and the bonus ones, but there's nothing more fun than Sonic with non-stop momentum.

Spin Dash (plus Drop Dash) or Boost + Stomp/Slide could be a toggle, as well?

Basically the classic spin-dash/thokk Sonic is harder than homing /boost... he's the one with the higher ceiling in terms of speed maybe but a bit of a higher floor too.

Homing/Boost is easy mode. You can actually pick it up and seem pretty good just by running and jumping almost mindlessly because the homing guides you along the path, and the double jump helps with recovery and mid-air jumping adjustment.

With "Thokk/Spin Dash" I think it would be cool to also add in the Mania Dropdash.

Basically I'm saying that the game would benefit from having Classic or Modern Sonic as an option from the beginning. But I don't know if it benefits from the distinction of two separate characters, or only as a mod, rather than one Sonic with a different ability loadout - easy or hard - thokk or homing.

\_(ツ)_/
Moose the Fat Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6394
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
This is because, in testing, we have found this to be the case. What you're misunderstanding is that there is a real cost to options. We can't just make everything an option to serve everyone, for a lot of reasons. While this isn't an exhaustive list, here are just a few of the reasons:
  • Options that are not regularly used become buggy over time because they're not being actively maintained.
  • Options that are incredibly niche are a waste of developer time and energy making when they only serve a tiny number of players.
  • Options bloat leads to confusion as to what the options even do.
  • Options that look initially appealing can be hazardous to new players because they will enable them without realizing the downside, frequently not even knowing that their frustration is being caused by the option they enabled earlier.
Making something an option is simply not a solution to most disagreements. I know a lot of people here really like saying it is, but having pages and pages of options isn't going to help anyone and would waste a lot of development time on niche junk that isn't important. This goes way beyond just new player misunderstanding, although that's certainly one factor that can cause an option to be removed or not considered for addition.
I get that everything can't be put behind a toggle. You are entirely right in pointing out that this would be ridiculous. Clutter should definitely be something that is avoided. However, I've been getting the impression a lot lately as though you are trying to avoid options entirely when they are suggested, which is where I start to feel iffy.

Where I disagree with you however is in regards to new players misunderstanding options and as such enabling things that make their experience worse. As long as the development team for a game goes out of their way to make sure that options are as clearly understandable as possible, players potentially misunderstanding them shouldn't be a factor in removing or refusing to add them. It reaches the point at which it becomes the player's own fault for enabling options that simply aren't their thing, and their own responsibility to properly look through the options to see where they screwed up and disable anything that's souring their experience. That's not something that a dev team should be afraid of happening so long as they have done their job of making the options easy to understand.

If what you are finding is that players have a tendency to enable things they really probably shouldn't early on, then make it even more clear that these options are intended for experienced players. For example, when attempting to enable such an option you could have a notification pop up saying something like "This option is intended for experienced players. Are you sure you want to enable it?" With a yes or no toggle, or something like that.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6395
fickleheart
ms reflec beat stan
 
fickleheart's Avatar
Default

Would it make sense to just give the player 50 rings for a token in Record Attack too? It might end up overcentralizing ring attack around those locations, but it would allow for consistency (at least once the emeralds are collected in your base save) while still giving the old benefit that people liked from the tokens.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arf View Post
Stop trying to make slopes, guys.
fickleheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6396
Kaysakado
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fickleheart View Post
Would it make sense to just give the player 50 rings for a token in Record Attack too? It might end up overcentralizing ring attack around those locations, but it would allow for consistency (at least once the emeralds are collected in your base save) while still giving the old benefit that people liked from the tokens.
+1 to this, it would incentivize finding more emerald tokens if nothing else. Anecdotally, it took me a while to find all the tokens just because I really had no reason to once I had all seven emeralds.

I love the idea of being able to collect record emblems in normal play. I'm curious what the validity requirement would be - no deaths, no super sonic, that sort of thing? I wonder if it would be gamebreaking to just give you the emblem if you finish the level with the ring or time requirement regardless of it not being a "record attack-valid run".

It would make the "rules" easier to comprehend, and would ensure that there's no pressure to play a certain way if you're still on the fence whether or not you wanted to get an emblem that particular run. Dying certainly isn't going to be advantageous for anyone going for a record emblem anyways, and while Super Sonic has big opportunities for time attack cheese - so does Tails in our current system. Not to mention Super Sonic can cheese a lot of the current global emblems, so it's not a new concept.
Kaysakado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6397
time gear
 
time gear's Avatar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fickleheart View Post
Would it make sense to just give the player 50 rings for a token in Record Attack too? It might end up overcentralizing ring attack around those locations, but it would allow for consistency (at least once the emeralds are collected in your base save) while still giving the old benefit that people liked from the tokens.
The main reason why I would assume this wouldn't work is because it creates a significant difference between people with all the emeralds as opposed to people without them, with the advantage going to people with them.

Making it so everyone gets 50 rings on finding and picking up a token regardless of emerald count could be one way to get around that problem, though, now that I think about it.
time gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6398
Kaysakado
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
The main reason why I would assume this wouldn't work is because it creates a significant difference between people with all the emeralds as opposed to people without them, with the advantage going to people with them.

Making it so everyone gets 50 rings on finding and picking up a token regardless of emerald count could be one way to get around that problem, though, now that I think about it.
I'm guessing if it gave 50 rings in record attack it would be emerald-independent in that mode.
Kaysakado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6399
Mystic
チェン!
 
Mystic's Avatar
Default

So, this should be obvious, but I'm going to preface this post by saying that I am going to describe something that is not implemented, so the following is all just the idea as discussed previous to implementation, which generally requires changes to the idea to make things work well. All of what I'm about to say is subject to change.

The long-term idea is that any single-segment run, meaning no deaths, would count. Completing the game with all emeralds would unlock the ability to use Super in record attack, fixing that discrepancy. This is actually part of the reason why making the tokens not give 50 rings is preferred, as it's more interesting for time attack if you actually have to find 50 rings legitimately to pull off super in a time attack scenario.

This doesn't mean that the token necessarily needs to give continues, mind you. It just means that we don't want rings specifically because it's disruptive to both perfect bonus and making time attack more interesting with emeralds. There are other things we could grant or do that wouldn't be disruptive to those things. Obviously we were operating under the assumption that continues would be something useful when we made that change, but currently they're useless because of the changes to the save structure. I'm open to ideas on something better to put there, but because of the reasoning above I don't think reverting to 50 rings is a good idea.

Last edited by Mystic; 03-21-2020 at 03:57 PM.
Mystic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2020   #6400
Krabs
 
Krabs's Avatar
Default

It might make the game even crazier to 100%, but I really wish I was incentivized to find all those emerald tokens in addition to emblems. Maybe getting all the emerald tokens in a level should reward one emblem, which would make them useful even after all the emeralds are collected.
Krabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Some suggestions..... Konata123 SRB2 Discussion 3 03-30-2011 03:01 AM
I want some suggestions/reviews, please. Shadow Hog Outdated Releases (0.X & 1.X) 22 10-31-2006 01:45 AM
Question about a few 1.1 suggestions SSNTails Help 11 01-07-2006 04:27 AM
My suggestions RenegadeC Help 41 10-18-2005 09:51 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.