Does anyone know where the claim that this is "an art community" came from?

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It's natural to get antsy when someone gets banned, but save for very niche exceptions, no ban is permanent - a good enough appeal usually lets you back. Considering Bandder was warned and given the whole reasoning behind his ban in advance, he should have no trouble to argue his case if he so wishes.

That said, this discussion is very intriguing to me because I can't help but think in whose interest it is that mods not be considered art. What good does that do everyone? What evils does it prevent? Is there something about the creative process for a mod that makes it less valid than other art forms? Does considering mods an art form frustrate you, and if yes, how?

Most of what I've seen presented so far is just a result of the commodification of modding that is present in other game communities: just like the games they're for, mods are a product to be consumed so you don't gotta think too hard about who makes it or the work that went into it. But if the games themselves can be considered works of art, why not the mods? What's so wrong about us taking a different approach to how mods and modders are treated?

I genuinely want the discussion to continue with an actual exchange of ideas - just please don't start trolling and attacking people for it.
 
Tatsuru said:
It's natural to get antsy when someone gets banned, but save for very niche exceptions, no ban is permanent - a good enough appeal usually lets you back. Considering Bandder was warned and given the whole reasoning behind his ban in advance, he should have no trouble to argue his case if he so wishes.

That said, this discussion is very intriguing to me because I can't help but think in whose interest it is that mods not be considered art. What good does that do everyone? What evils does it prevent? Is there something about the creative process for a mod that makes it less valid than other art forms?

Most of what I've seen presented so far is just a result of the commodification of modding that is present in other game communities: just like the games they're for, mods are a product to be consumed so you don't gotta think too hard about who makes it or the work that went into it. But if the games themselves can be considered works of art, why not the mods? What's so wrong about us taking a different approach to how mods and modders are treated?

I genuinely want the discussion to continue with an actual exchange of ideas - just please don't start trolling and attacking people for it.
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Perfectly put brother.
 
Tatsuru said:
Most of what I've seen presented so far is just a result of the commodification of modding that is present in other game communities: just like the games they're for, mods are a product to be consumed so you don't gotta think too hard about who makes it or the work that went into it. But if the games themselves can be considered works of art, why not the mods? What's so wrong about us taking a different approach to how mods and modders are treated?
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I guess to kick it off; in some way I do think that there is room and a way to call a mod "art" in a way that makese sense. Over a decade ago someone released a map wad called s_house.wad to the message board that was a straight up psychological horror that didn't immediately give away the meaning of its premise. That is a mod I can call art since its design counters and challenges the traditions and expectations of SRB2 and games of its ilk. It actually invites you to view it as art with that context.

With things traditionally like character mods, level/level packs, scripts, colour palettes, etc I don't get that same sense of calling them art outside of more surface level qualities which don't amount to much in terms of actually challenging my perspective (this is not the same as difficulty btw).

In accordance I don't get why SRB2 itself has to be put on the art pedistal where despite its impressive history and retrofitting of the DOOM engine, it doesn't really challenge the perspective of itself as a video game. It's DOOM with a new Sonic flavour. Both are fun video games meant to sell you on high action with fast movement and levels to fit and primarily be a challenge.

So I see a game based on someone elses IP and people making additions, I view it more appropriate as an invitation to play, have fun, challenge and succeed myself. You could say again there is art in the craft in that growth or in small design details, but that word comes off as too strong and pretentious to what SRB2 is.

SRB2 to me should be an invitation for people to have fun with first and foremost. Something that being called art I think ends up suffocating and drowns own that senitment making it seem more grander and self-centered than what I think others assmue with the words definition regardless of context...

...Also like if you want a mod that is art just make something like s_house.wad that challenges the play. Doesn't have to be horror but that's definitely the genre that makes a prospect like that easier to attain.
 
Tatsuru said:
It's natural to get antsy when someone gets banned, but save for very niche exceptions, no ban is permanent - a good enough appeal usually lets you back. Considering Bandder was warned and given the whole reasoning behind his ban in advance, he should have no trouble to argue his case if he so wishes.

That said, this discussion is very intriguing to me because I can't help but think in whose interest it is that mods not be considered art. What good does that do everyone? What evils does it prevent? Is there something about the creative process for a mod that makes it less valid than other art forms? Does considering mods an art form frustrate you, and if yes, how?

Most of what I've seen presented so far is just a result of the commodification of modding that is present in other game communities: just like the games they're for, mods are a product to be consumed so you don't gotta think too hard about who makes it or the work that went into it. But if the games themselves can be considered works of art, why not the mods? What's so wrong about us taking a different approach to how mods and modders are treated?

I genuinely want the discussion to continue with an actual exchange of ideas - just please don't start trolling and attacking people for it.
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Wait, when was bandder warned?
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Lemerksdagaming said:
Wait, when was bandder warned?
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Read the thread. Doesn't seem like bandder was warned at any point by any mod. The ban just magically appeared out of nowhere
 
Yeah I don't see him being warned anywhere on this thread, Unless there's proof of him being warned elsewhere.
 
Bandder was warned privately. Not all warnings are publicly displayed on the posts they're attached to.

Grayvy Guy said:
I guess to kick it off
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This is a valid and self-contained opinion, but it's ultimately not what I asked. My question is what is the problem with treating SRB2 modding as art rather your personal opinion on why you think it should or should not be so.

Grayvy Guy said:
SRB2 to me should be an invitation for people to have fun with first and foremost. Something that being called art I think ends up suffocating and drowns own that senitment making it seem more grander and self-centered than what I think others assmue with the words definition regardless of context...
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I guess you did touch upon that by saying this, but I don't follow. How would treating mods as an artistic piece get in the way of having fun with them? That doesn't happen with games.

Needless to say grandeur and self-centeredness don't really mean anything in this context. If a person put effort, skill and free time into something that other people are enjoying, should they not feel proud of their craft? Or is it again just a product for folks to consume and discard when they're bored of it?
 
I want to ask, do people who disagree with this statement believe we're outright trying to force people to take pride in their own art? Because if that's the feeling people are getting, that isn't the intent at all and the relation between someone and what they make is entirely up to them alone.

Is the argument that it's absurd to take pride in something that doesn't get mainstream appeal? Because mods on these forums get into the tens of thousands of downloads which is still insane to think about and realize at times.

I'm not particularly a creative person, but I don't understand the umbrage against the idea of feeling some kind of pride for the unique thing you've created, unless this is being viewed in the light of a person feeling arrogant towards their work as something that demands respect beyond simply being someone's own expression of creativity myself.
 
ChaseSP said:
I want to ask, do people who disagree with this statement believe we're outright trying to force people to take pride in their own art? Because if that's the feeling people are getting, that isn't the intent at all and the relation between someone and what they make is entirely up to them alone.

Is the argument that it's absurd to take pride in something that doesn't get mainstream appeal? Because mods on these forums get into the tens of thousands of downloads which is still insane to think about and realize at times.

I'm not particularly a creative person, but I don't understand the umbrage against the idea of feeling some kind of pride for the unique thing you've created, unless this is being viewed in the light of a person feeling arrogant towards their work as something that demands respect beyond simply being someone's own expression of creativity myself.
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This.

Now, going into my own thoughts, I really don't think anyone's right or wrong here. It's moreso perspective.
Some people are one-track minded, and only care about their stuff. Or maybe they like using other people's things cuz they're good. But whatever the case, Nothing's really art or not. Art is just an expression, so, realistically, anything can be art, and anything can't be art. The argument about it really won't do much, cuz some people are stubborn. And some are so with the flow they change opinions constantly.
It's like, uh...
(Shit, I'm no good with this stuff-)
A black and white bird.
Let's say the white bird thinks seeds are better. But it's open to try other things.
And the black bird likes fruit, and won't change it's mind.
But they can't change each other.
Because they are simply to each their own.
Basically what's going on here.
You can call it art, and you can call it a mod.
Or you can call it Parappa the Rapper, I don't fucken know.
Point is, people can call it what they want, and we can't change that. Because whether we like it or not, they'll call it what they want to, despite other's opinions. Sorry, it came free with your freedom of speech. (Took a page outta Amperbee's book! :D)
 
ChaseSP said:
I want to ask, do people who disagree with this statement believe we're outright trying to force people to take pride in their own art? Because if that's the feeling people are getting, that isn't the intent at all and the relation between someone and what they make is entirely up to them alone.

Is the argument that it's absurd to take pride in something that doesn't get mainstream appeal? Because mods on these forums get into the tens of thousands of downloads which is still insane to think about and realize at times.

I'm not particularly a creative person, but I don't understand the umbrage against the idea of feeling some kind of pride for the unique thing you've created, unless this is being viewed in the light of a person feeling arrogant towards their work as something that demands respect beyond simply being someone's own expression of creativity myself.
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It's not like we're outright using it by its entire definition. Art is said in a way that doesn't make it historically wrong. It doesn't try to disturb the meaning of Art but appeals to artistically talented people, it introduces some creative and passionate work. An artist would consider this (Like a drawing, despite its horribleness) at least you're first trip through learning and understanding the terms of what an Artist would do.

I'm not good at wording my sentences (sometimes I try to put in effort from doing so). But feel free to reply to this as well, it'd be nice to learn more from other members of the community!
 
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*GOOFYRAT!* said:
It's like, uh...
(Shit, I'm no good with this stuff-)
A black and white bird.
Let's say the white bird thinks seeds are better. But it's open to try other things.
And the black bird likes fruit, and won't change it's mind.
But they can't change each other.
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The thing is, those of us on the side of seeing these things as, by definition, art are having a hard time understanding why the other side has such a deep hatred of this and assigns pretentiousness to it as though they think we think we are some higher class individuals just for using the term in general. It's not a matter of should or shouldn't at this point, it's a matter of one side if not both failing to comprehend the other side's perspective and at least one side attempting to learn more so as to understand it. As Tatsuru is asking, "what is the problem?".

Sls64LGamingBro said:
It's not like we're outright using it by its entire definition. Art is said in a way that doesn't make it historically wrong. It doesn't appeal to artists, it introduces some creative and passionate work. An artist would consider this (Like a drawing, despite its horribleness) at least you're first trip through learning and understanding the terms of what an Artist would do.
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Different artists have different perspectives on different aspects of art, even including what should and shouldn't be considered art. For instance; there are some individuals out there who will simply draw a straight line on a piece of paper and maybe put their signature on it. It is a fairly old subject of debate at this point whether this qualifies as art and whether the high price tags associated with some of these pieces are justified. Artists are (unsurprisingly) individual people with their own individual thoughts and opinions and even processes with which they create their art. Some artists use different tools, some take their time, some want to get done quick, some prefer certain techniques, others different ones, etc.

That being said, generally that which is and isn't subject to the debate on what is and isn't depends on how far it's pushing the limits. There's not much in the way of work being done on SRB2 mods that would draw close to exceeding the bounds of what is easily considered art by definition, even if it isn't always word for word what you would find in a dictionary. Art has always had a crucial emotional aspect to it, which can make it hard to put what it is exactly into words and is what gives it its subjective nature.
 
time gear said:
Different artists have different perspectives on different aspects of art, even including what should and shouldn't be considered art. For instance; there are some individuals out there who will simply draw a straight line on a piece of paper and maybe put their signature on it. It is a fairly old subject of debate at this point whether this qualifies as art and whether the high price tags associated with some of these pieces are justified. Artists are (unsurprisingly) individual people with their own individual thoughts and opinions and even processes with which they create their art. Some artists use different tools, some take their time, some want to get done quick, some prefer certain techniques, others different ones, etc.
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Yeah, I guess I was kind of wrong about my statement. I know I mostly make art, so I don't consider myself a historical reader. I also changed my comment to address it more, although. It's pretty much the same comment I made like a few minutes ago. Even if it's by Artists' choice whether they're fair matter about their choices, it's by true standards that is individual. I can tell where you're going with a person drawing a straight line. And by quality standards. However, It's truly difficult to understand the perks of being an Artist, whether by its nature or the difficulty that starts from being an Artist. I'm still not a historical reader, so I wouldn't put that into anyone's perspective. I've also known about coding, so I'm mostly mixed about both.
 
Tatsuru said:
Considering Bandder was warned and given the whole reasoning behind his ban in advance
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Can you share what exactly was sent? Bandder claims not to have received any kind of warning prior to his ban (which I assume would've been private because there's nothing in this thread that resembles a warning).

Although I personally disagree with his instigating, I think we deserve some transparency about this.

EDIT:

I completely glanced over Tat's follow-up message, by bad. But if these private warnings work the same way as the one on ladno2023's post, with the sole difference being that only the recipient can see them, I honestly can't blame Bandder for not realizing it was there (especially if there was no notification about it).
 
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Tatsuru said:
Bandder was warned privately. Not all warnings are publicly displayed on the posts they're attached to.
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I've personally spoken to Bandder and he claims to have not in fact been warned privately.
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I disagree with the way he tackled this argument but I believe a full-on ban wasn't correct, even if temporary. Otherwise, all I see here is you silencing a critic.
 
XyloKlonoaFan said:
I've personally spoken to Bandder and he claims to have not in fact been warned privately.
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I disagree with the way he tackled this argument but I believe a full-on ban wasn't correct, even if temporary. Otherwise, all I see here is you silencing a critic.
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This makes the ban look much worse. I hope the admins have a reasonable exclamation to this, Otherwise it would make them look pretty dishonest
 
XyloKlonoaFan said:
I've personally spoken to Bandder and he claims to have not in fact been warned privately.
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I disagree with the way he tackled this argument but I believe a full-on ban wasn't correct, even if temporary. Otherwise, all I see here is you silencing a critic.
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I would at least have him be banned for 3 days to rest his mind and ensure he was incorrect or biased about the conversation. A full-on ban was a useless defense to say that "We privately warned him, but we didn't know if he wanted to answer". Even if you had the restrictions to do so, felt like you took that power a bit too aggressively. I hope this will be advised later on. Otherwise, it would be deeply disappointing regardless of the decision. Also, I'm not saying it in a rough tone. I just happened to see this out of nowhere.
 
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Sls64LGamingBro said:
I would at least have him be banned for 3 days to rest his mind and ensure he was incorrect or biased about the conversation. A full-on ban was a useless defense to say that "We privately warned him, but we didn't know if he wanted to answer". Even if you had the restrictions to do so, felt like you took that power a bit too aggressively. I hope this will be advised later on. Otherwise, it would be deeply disappointing regardless of the decision. Also, I'm not saying it in a rough tone. I just happened to see this out of nowhere.
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This.
 
LeoTheHedgehog12 said:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO BANDER GOT BANNED!!! :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation: :devastation:
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God damn this was definitely not deserved! this is very sad and I think this is a perfect example of poor moderation, abuse of power and most importantly just being soft as fuck in general. Anyone can say what ever or say I don’t know anything because I’m not a moderator and honestly what the fuck does that mean? Anyways sad we lost a goat 😭
 
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