RikkiandSparkey
Member
no I really do think this game is gonna be awesome...why?
New 2D Sonic game "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" announced for 2010
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Holy shit, thank you for posting. It pisses me off when people use "BAWW GREEN EYES" when regarding to classic fans upset about modern Sonic being used. It's a stupid generalization that misses about 90% of the point.
Too much platforming in a platforming game? I agree about the lack of exploration, but I think platforming is a good thing.
Oh, and about your boost pad idea, I get what you mean. It's certainly a good idea, but placing all boost pads like this would get tiresome.
Oh, and about your boost pad idea, I get what you mean. It's certainly a good idea, but placing all boost pads like this would get tiresome.
I agree wholeheartedly, that shit was getting old.
Bbop800
BboP
So basically Sonic has to be classic to make the game good? You're saying it's hard to take the game seriously because of a graphic design? The reason why I think criticizing modern Sonic is pointless is because it has nothing to do with the game itself. Video game characters evolve all the time, look at Duke Nukem at his first game. Now look at the modern Duke Nukem. Is this worth complaining about? Of course not. It's exactly the same way with Sonic. The game is already recycled enough with the same badniks and levels designs and bosses. Now the character models have to be recycled too? I just find it ironic how people complain about recycled material, yet they want Sonic's design itself to be recycled. It just doesn't seem to make any sense. Other than that, I respect your opinion, Blue Warrior.
Sonnarkku
Obamasnow Fan-- With a Hat
Quite an interesting post, especially the 2nd-to-4th line. That can be applied to nearly every recent Sonic game there´s been:
Fantard reasons of why Sonic games suck:
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Shadow the Hedgehog 2006: Shadow sucks because he uses weapons, it also sucks because he rides vehicles, he has fingers and foot to drive, but Shadow is not suppoused to ride vehicles, the game makes he look Emo, that sucks, it sucks, SEGA screwed it booo!
Sonic the Hedgehog 2006: It sucks because Shadow and Silver run slow, they got rid of the guns but still sucks because Shadow knows how to drive, and Silver runs slow, everyone in Sonic is suppoused to break the sound barrier and run at 350 Miles Per Hour !1!!!!!!1!!1! Also Sonic´s voice is gay, it sounds gay and that shits the entire game up. I havn´t played the game, but another fantard said it sucks, and he must be right!
Sonic Riders: Sucks!!! Sonic is not suppoused to be in a board, boards suck, it is a copy of Mario Kart because it is about racing! How could SEGA dare to do that? THEY TOTALLY COPIED MARIO KART BECAUSE THE GAME IS ABOUT RACING OMG!!! It sucks because when characters run out of oxigen, they have to run slower to recover their breathe, SONIC IZ SUP0UZED TO HAZ INFINITE STAMINAZ, HE MUST RUN FOREVAR!
Sonic Unleashed: Sonic Unleashed sucks because Sonic turns into a Werehog and goes slow, also he is not suppoused to fight, he is suppoused to run, and the game is too long, I don´t like long games, other franchises can be long, but Sonic must stay as a short games franchise!
Sonic Riders-Zero Gravity: Sonic is a cartoony blue hedgehog of the size of a human with white gloves, red shoes, can speak, goes faster than sound, can think and turns into a sphere trough spinning, but SEGA is stupid, controling gravity is stupid, it makes no sence, also, you shoudn´t be able to buy boards, Sonic is not suppoused to buy things, everyone should give him everything!.
Sonic and the Black Knight: OMG Sonic is using a sword, why is he using a sword? Enemies have armors that resist hits, but he should not use a blade, why is he using a blade? It makes no sence!
Sonic All Stars Racing: (Geez, I don´t even need to imitate a fantard here, I am pretty sure the entire community is aware of what fantards said to this)
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Ok, better keep a line betwen that and me, probably one of the things I hate the most about these complaints, is that people usually mentions SEGA, when it comes to design, altrough SEGA barely has anything to do with the game, it is suppoused to be designed and created by Sonic Team. SEGA are the owners and publishers.
Fantard reasons of why Sonic games suck:
_________________________________________________________________
Shadow the Hedgehog 2006: Shadow sucks because he uses weapons, it also sucks because he rides vehicles, he has fingers and foot to drive, but Shadow is not suppoused to ride vehicles, the game makes he look Emo, that sucks, it sucks, SEGA screwed it booo!
Sonic the Hedgehog 2006: It sucks because Shadow and Silver run slow, they got rid of the guns but still sucks because Shadow knows how to drive, and Silver runs slow, everyone in Sonic is suppoused to break the sound barrier and run at 350 Miles Per Hour !1!!!!!!1!!1! Also Sonic´s voice is gay, it sounds gay and that shits the entire game up. I havn´t played the game, but another fantard said it sucks, and he must be right!
Sonic Riders: Sucks!!! Sonic is not suppoused to be in a board, boards suck, it is a copy of Mario Kart because it is about racing! How could SEGA dare to do that? THEY TOTALLY COPIED MARIO KART BECAUSE THE GAME IS ABOUT RACING OMG!!! It sucks because when characters run out of oxigen, they have to run slower to recover their breathe, SONIC IZ SUP0UZED TO HAZ INFINITE STAMINAZ, HE MUST RUN FOREVAR!
Sonic Unleashed: Sonic Unleashed sucks because Sonic turns into a Werehog and goes slow, also he is not suppoused to fight, he is suppoused to run, and the game is too long, I don´t like long games, other franchises can be long, but Sonic must stay as a short games franchise!
Sonic Riders-Zero Gravity: Sonic is a cartoony blue hedgehog of the size of a human with white gloves, red shoes, can speak, goes faster than sound, can think and turns into a sphere trough spinning, but SEGA is stupid, controling gravity is stupid, it makes no sence, also, you shoudn´t be able to buy boards, Sonic is not suppoused to buy things, everyone should give him everything!.
Sonic and the Black Knight: OMG Sonic is using a sword, why is he using a sword? Enemies have armors that resist hits, but he should not use a blade, why is he using a blade? It makes no sence!
Sonic All Stars Racing: (Geez, I don´t even need to imitate a fantard here, I am pretty sure the entire community is aware of what fantards said to this)
___________________________________________________________________
Ok, better keep a line betwen that and me, probably one of the things I hate the most about these complaints, is that people usually mentions SEGA, when it comes to design, altrough SEGA barely has anything to do with the game, it is suppoused to be designed and created by Sonic Team. SEGA are the owners and publishers.
RikkiandSparkey
Member
The game looks fun but we cant be TO sure yet... but at the moment it's looking awesome...
This is not what Blue Warrior exactly meant, I'm not exactly sure about what he meant, but I'm certain it's not about "classic Sonic design = good game", I guess he means that since this game is trying so much to be genesis styled and a sequel to Sonic & Knuckles, the classic Sonic design would make the game feel a little more... classic
In my opinion, it's kinda odd about they adding the same badniks into the game with their exact original designs (a little detailed, of course) but having Modern Sonic instead of the Classic Sonic (some times, I think they tried to make a bizarre mix of both)
And I think that kinda breaks the heart of some classic fans, specially when they expected to finally see the classic blue dude once again, and I'm talking about the first trailer when the game was known as Project Needlemouse (and it was the Sonic 1 title emblem in black, sadly)
But my main problem with the game is Sonic's face in the title emblem :B
He seems to be looking at me with a rapeface.... spooky
Alright, that's not my main problem with the game, but I think they should at least fix Sonic's smile, it doesn't feels right
RikkiandSparkey
Member
Is this to me?? im just asking because I'm not 100% sure...
Kyasarin
Member
In other words, everything that doesn't stay true to the classic formula is instantly wrong? You're not even giving real reasons other than "it's not supposed to be that way" or "it's gay and stupid and different lololol".
I'm fine for opinions, but honestly, it doesn't seem like you're even giving these games a real chance.
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Sonnarkku
Obamasnow Fan-- With a Hat
Sonic and Sega All Stars racing was probably the game who received the least pointless fantard bashing from the list. But as it is to imagine, there was this whole pointless ¨Sonic in a Car¨ controversy.
No, it is a stereotyping to all the people who hate Sonic for the most ridiculous reasons.
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Oh god, I need to stop writing walls of text for this forum.
I've already went over this. It isn't just a matter of aesthetics, it's the underlying message that it conveys. Classic and modern Sonic are symbolic. If modern Sonic is starring in a game, then you expect to be playing a modern-style Sonic game, which, in all technicality, Sonic 4 isn't supposed to be. Along with this, there's a "seal of quality" aspect to classic Sonic: we're familiar with modern Sonic games, and I think most of us will agree that modern Sonic games generally have problems. So, naturally, if modern Sonic appears on the box art of something, the first word that should come to mind is "problem". That's why associating Sonic 4 with modern Sonic sends a bad message to the classic fans. It isn't directly an implication that the gameplay will suck, but it does result in the inference that the staff making the game isn't making a classic Sonic game like they promised.... or they're trying to but missing the point entirely, which is worse.
I'm not a believer of judging a book by its cover, which is why my last wall of china didn't cover solely Sonic 4 presentation.
tl;dr Duke Nukem doesn't have a bad character model or a bad art direction. I argue that Sonic does. I don't think a lot of people realize what makes characters look the way they do, which is probably why fans on both sides of the spectrum constantly make a herp out of their derp and use "green eyes" to make their points. The rabbit hole goes much deeper than that, even if what I just spoilered only constitutes as art theory.
Sonic 4 is doing the exact opposite of what Mega Man 9 did, and from all appearances, it's done so in all of the wrong ways. No changes to broken physics, there still doesn't seem to be any artistic merit in the soundtrack... I've given plenty the game some benefit of the doubt and excused the leaks as unfinished, but it's the middle of September now, and I don't think Sonic Team has gotten its shit together.
Oh god, I need to stop writing walls of text for this forum.
I've already went over this. It isn't just a matter of aesthetics, it's the underlying message that it conveys. Classic and modern Sonic are symbolic. If modern Sonic is starring in a game, then you expect to be playing a modern-style Sonic game, which, in all technicality, Sonic 4 isn't supposed to be. Along with this, there's a "seal of quality" aspect to classic Sonic: we're familiar with modern Sonic games, and I think most of us will agree that modern Sonic games generally have problems. So, naturally, if modern Sonic appears on the box art of something, the first word that should come to mind is "problem". That's why associating Sonic 4 with modern Sonic sends a bad message to the classic fans. It isn't directly an implication that the gameplay will suck, but it does result in the inference that the staff making the game isn't making a classic Sonic game like they promised.... or they're trying to but missing the point entirely, which is worse.
I'm not a believer of judging a book by its cover, which is why my last wall of china didn't cover solely Sonic 4 presentation.
There is no significant design change between Duke Nukem Then and Duke Nukem Now that I can spot right off the bat, and it has absolutely no similarities with Sonic's situation, so the comparison of "character evolution" you made is lost on me. I understand what you're trying to point out, and it's that every character goes through newer design changes, which isn't a bad thing. But that's missing the point, and honestly, that's something I've wanted to address for a little while now anyway. Even if modern Sonic's design is fine, the artistic style used would still make him look poor. Hit the spoiler button for a huge wall of text. Unfortunately, the spoiler tag broke some of my formatting, so there's going to be a few long hyperlinks.
There is a thing called natural evolution. Take Bomberman. In the very first game, he was supposed to be a faceless obscure robot (http://www.destructoid.com/elephant//ul/17340-550x-Question 20.jpg), but the popularity of his actual ingame appearance encouraged the Bomberman design of a stubby-armed robot looking guy (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3a/Bomberman2Cover.jpg/200px-Bomberman2Cover.jpg) -- the basic appearance which, over time (http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/04/800px-Super.Bomberman.Box.Art.SNES.PALwtmk.jpg), was fleshed out and turned into how we see Bomberman today (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Bombermanii.jpg). These aren't meaningless changes -- they're gradual changes to find a sweet spot on a character design that looks good and stands out from the crowd with a unique style that consequently makes the character iconic. This is natural evolution, and there are subdesigns that phase in an out of history, which allows Hudson to play with a character's design without messing with anything in Bomberman's main continuity, similar to Nintendo's Paper Mario and M&L series.
Most or all of Sonic's natural evolution took place in the early planning stages, where he went through several animal changes, hedgehog appearances, and then minor details such as fangs and... uh, Madonna. Eventually, Sonic 1 comes out, and what you see is what you get (http://info.sonicretro.org/images/6/6d/Sonic1.png). Now, take a minute to study this image. Don't just look at the character, look at the way he's drawn and colored. The drawing is very simple; Sonic has a cartoony appearance, some shapes are emphasized or over-simplified but manages to keep themselves realistically proportioned. But then you put color and shading into the mix, and god damn this shit looks deep. The shading is smooth, rational, and constant. The reflections off of the nose, shoe, and eye are all consistent, and along with the shading dictate a clear lighting source. There isn't a single black lining used here, meaning that the shading does all the work in showing that an eyebrow is an eyebrow, or a finger is a finger and not a part of some gelatinous handblob, and in my opinion that's pretty fucking impressive. Unless you're an artist, this might not mean anything to you, but to put it simply, Sonic's old design wasn't just good, it was rendered by an excellent artist, and in turn that made it look DAMN good.
Then Sonic Adventure comes along and decides that Sonic's design needs an overhaul (http://info.sonicretro.org/images/4/4c/Sonicchannel_sonic02_nocircle.png). Now, just what the hell is going on here? Okay, the shaping is obviously different, Sonic is made skinnier and his spines are made longer (probably to imitate the idea of longer hair I suppose, helping the "edgy" appearance), which I don't really think makes sense since Sonic is supposed to be closer to a hedgehog than a human, but whatever. That's bearable, but what the fuck is up with the shading? He has this weird inline all around him like some sort of fridge magnet, with no coherency to a light source or anything. And then the eyes... augh, they're not bad because they're green, christ no; they're bad because they're fridge magnets all by themselves! Look into an eye and tell me the fridge magnet shading makes sense. I fucking dare you.
Anyway, bad artistic design tends to seep in from official artwork into the games themselves in the case of most new Sonic games, and I think the same applies to Sonic 4. Nevermind the upside-down shine ellipse Sonic has in his eyes now for some reason, or that he has some odd line inbetween his eyes. Why are his spines flopping around like bananas? Spines don't do that on hedgehogs and porcupines, do they? They probably wouldn't on Sonic if the spines weren't so large, but hedgehogs don't have spines as long as his anyway. Maybe this is just going back to the point that Sonic shouldn't have had longer spines in the first place.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Modern Sonic isn't the result of natural evolution, it's the result of a bad art direction. Unless you can refute my points, I don't see how the modern design could possibly considered an improvement over the classic design. I wouldn't be so concerned about it if it was just Sonic Colors, but this is Sonic 4! Technically, the modern style should be nonexistent here!
Most or all of Sonic's natural evolution took place in the early planning stages, where he went through several animal changes, hedgehog appearances, and then minor details such as fangs and... uh, Madonna. Eventually, Sonic 1 comes out, and what you see is what you get (http://info.sonicretro.org/images/6/6d/Sonic1.png). Now, take a minute to study this image. Don't just look at the character, look at the way he's drawn and colored. The drawing is very simple; Sonic has a cartoony appearance, some shapes are emphasized or over-simplified but manages to keep themselves realistically proportioned. But then you put color and shading into the mix, and god damn this shit looks deep. The shading is smooth, rational, and constant. The reflections off of the nose, shoe, and eye are all consistent, and along with the shading dictate a clear lighting source. There isn't a single black lining used here, meaning that the shading does all the work in showing that an eyebrow is an eyebrow, or a finger is a finger and not a part of some gelatinous handblob, and in my opinion that's pretty fucking impressive. Unless you're an artist, this might not mean anything to you, but to put it simply, Sonic's old design wasn't just good, it was rendered by an excellent artist, and in turn that made it look DAMN good.
Then Sonic Adventure comes along and decides that Sonic's design needs an overhaul (http://info.sonicretro.org/images/4/4c/Sonicchannel_sonic02_nocircle.png). Now, just what the hell is going on here? Okay, the shaping is obviously different, Sonic is made skinnier and his spines are made longer (probably to imitate the idea of longer hair I suppose, helping the "edgy" appearance), which I don't really think makes sense since Sonic is supposed to be closer to a hedgehog than a human, but whatever. That's bearable, but what the fuck is up with the shading? He has this weird inline all around him like some sort of fridge magnet, with no coherency to a light source or anything. And then the eyes... augh, they're not bad because they're green, christ no; they're bad because they're fridge magnets all by themselves! Look into an eye and tell me the fridge magnet shading makes sense. I fucking dare you.
Anyway, bad artistic design tends to seep in from official artwork into the games themselves in the case of most new Sonic games, and I think the same applies to Sonic 4. Nevermind the upside-down shine ellipse Sonic has in his eyes now for some reason, or that he has some odd line inbetween his eyes. Why are his spines flopping around like bananas? Spines don't do that on hedgehogs and porcupines, do they? They probably wouldn't on Sonic if the spines weren't so large, but hedgehogs don't have spines as long as his anyway. Maybe this is just going back to the point that Sonic shouldn't have had longer spines in the first place.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Modern Sonic isn't the result of natural evolution, it's the result of a bad art direction. Unless you can refute my points, I don't see how the modern design could possibly considered an improvement over the classic design. I wouldn't be so concerned about it if it was just Sonic Colors, but this is Sonic 4! Technically, the modern style should be nonexistent here!
tl;dr Duke Nukem doesn't have a bad character model or a bad art direction. I argue that Sonic does. I don't think a lot of people realize what makes characters look the way they do, which is probably why fans on both sides of the spectrum constantly make a herp out of their derp and use "green eyes" to make their points. The rabbit hole goes much deeper than that, even if what I just spoilered only constitutes as art theory.
I don't want shit to be recycled. I want positive progression. To make new model like this might possibly be the best thing Sonic Team could have done for Sonic 4's appearance (especially since it imbues natural character evolution from the classic design in a way that looks good), along with new enemies in spirit of the old games' general badnik concepts, new bosses in faith of of the old games' general boss system, etc. etc. Sonic Team seems to have completely confused what exactly is the right way of expressing nostalgia, so what happens is that while the old Sonic games were full of creativity and style, everything I've seen in Sonic 4 so far has none of the creativity and none of the style, aside from an act or two... and that was only bits and pieces of new gimmicks anyway.
Sonic 4 is doing the exact opposite of what Mega Man 9 did, and from all appearances, it's done so in all of the wrong ways. No changes to broken physics, there still doesn't seem to be any artistic merit in the soundtrack... I've given plenty the game some benefit of the doubt and excused the leaks as unfinished, but it's the middle of September now, and I don't think Sonic Team has gotten its shit together.
Oh god, I need to stop writing walls of text for this forum.
The last leak we've seen was before they said they'll fix it, so eh...
Oh and Kyasarin, I recommend reading Sonnarku's post once more.
There was a video of Sonic 4 at the Tokyo Game Show showing off a pretty blatant physics bug, I don't think that was too long ago. I recall someone saying that the staff isn't planning to make any major changes to the physics....
And, if you believe your typical internet news sources, then Sonic Team is probably more worried about the iPhone than some physics issues. So, well... put two and two together, I guess.
Sure that wasn't the E3 demo?
I recall SEGA themselves saying that they pushed the game back mainly to fix the physics.
I don't. I trust the end product. Whatever, it's pointless discussing this, since we don't know why they delayed it. We'll see when it's out.
I know this doesn't relate to anything in the topic, but just ftr Shadow the Hedgehog was released in 2005 :x
TrueTenguMan
Been working. . .
If he was a little more specific on what version, I would agree that the 360/PS3 version can take awhile to get through if you don't force yourself to replay stages for token hunting. Also lets not forget the ridiculous amount of time it took to get through Eggman land successfully ((Also... double troll boss fight?! Might as well death glitch me while your at it bastards >_>))
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