Glaber's Ban and anything Sandwichface related ig

[lnferno]

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You couldn't even keep your mouth shut about it in public, you're literally just lying now.

"You mean the conversation I explicitly told you to not share any details about"
You yourself said that you said not to say any details. Did you ever specify that it couldn't be mentioned at all?
Because this phrasing indicates just that she couldn't mention what WAS said, not that anything was said at all.

If you had wanted the conversation to be entirely secret to the point of it not being even able to brought up as having had happened, then either you should have specified that EXPLICITLY instead of just vaguely saying "not share any details about", or just. Opted out of the convo, because it's hard to explain why someone would do something if they are forbidden from explaining why.

Yeah, I've been very prudent about not sharing the contents of that conversation like you asked. You thought it was important so I took it seriously. The fact that we HAVE SPOKEN is not private.

Once again, who are you to criticize anyone for "lying", anyhow? You're the person who posted this, without even verifying it. And a step above simply perpetuating misinfo, you then proceed to tell everyone that it was a post I deleted and that people shouldn't believe me. You're the one who tells lies, don't project on me, mister.
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And with this.
Even if you had deleted it after editing it, the fact that you ever treated it like this means that you aren't on a moral high ground here. I get having grudges, but you have to acknowledge them as grudges when there is literally no harm that has been done to you and work around them, lest you destroy yourself in the process.

People are trying to figure out why you've had this hostile behavior for a long time now, so I'd advise not going in guns blazing if you want to make any point here, because there's many a person who stays in the shadows with grudges and stirs up drama whenever things like this happen, and this is an attempt to extend an olive branch for the second time.

 

[Pikaspoop]

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You couldn't even keep your mouth shut about it in public, you're literally just lying now.

Yeah, simply mentioning that a conversation happened is not at all the same as actually disclosing the information.
I can also vouch for Charyb that nothing was ever leaked from your conversation, and Charyb has too much integrity and restraint to ever let info like that out.

 

[Ace Dragon]

I think the answer the OP sought here is proof that no one is getting banned over critique regarding DRRR. As long as your criticism is constructive and targets the game and not the developers, then none here have anything to worry about.

I am not going to comment on the other half of the thread title, as I have experience from other communities on the negative mental effects of being too much involved in forum drama. Hopefully those here can avoid a situation where someone else gets banned out of this.

 

[Pikaspoop]

I think the answer the OP sought here is proof that no one is getting banned over critique regarding DRRR. As long as your criticism is constructive and targets the game and not the developers, then none here have anything to worry about.

I am not going to comment on the other half of the thread title, as I have experience from other communities on the negative mental effects of being too much involved in forum drama. Hopefully those here can avoid a situation where someone else gets banned out of this.

(gonna be paraphrasing)
Saying things like "the game has no future" and "don't bother modding for this game" aren't exactly criticisms of the game, rather they're verbal attacks.
There's a reason why almost all of the RR criticizers weren't banned, because they weren't being vicious or toxic. KK wants to make their game more enjoyable for the majority of players, believe it or not. The critiques are too valuable to them to remove LOL.

 

[Scizor300]

From what's publicly been shown, I don't see anything that Glaber has said that's too outside of the norm. The tutorial was widely panned to the point a quickfix patch was in order, and this community is simply not the audience where progression gating add-ons is going to go over very well. Blindsiding the playerbase with these with little to no explanation was always going to lead to people asking questions and coming to their own conclusions.

If his prior behavior like off-color political stances was taken into account for his current ban, what was the point of bringing him back to begin with?

 

[lnferno]

From what's publicly been shown, I don't see anything that Glaber has said that's too outside of the norm. The tutorial was widely panned to the point a quickfix patch was in order, and this community is simply not the audience where progression gating add-ons is going to go over very well. Blindsiding the playerbase with these with little to no explanation was always going to lead to people asking questions and coming to their own conclusions.

If his prior behavior like off-color political stances was taken into account for his current ban, what was the point of bringing him back to begin with?

From what Glaber himself has said: it went beyond criticism and into sheer toxicity to the point of it being unable to be tolerated. If you just check the first message after OP's in the thread, you see Glaber himself admitting this.
Please read.

 

[Ace Dragon]

Saying things like "the game has no future" and "don't bother modding for this game" aren't exactly criticisms of the game, rather they're verbal attacks.

Which does not fall under the category of being constructive (which is all about identifying specific issues and making suggestions on how it can be improved).

 

[Scizor300]

From what Glaber himself has said: it went beyond criticism and into sheer toxicity to the point of it being unable to be tolerated. If you just check the first message after OP's in the thread, you see Glaber himself admitting this.
Please read.
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I saw equally passionate opinions on both sides, but it's true that Twitter isn't the SRB2 community. Someone was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Pikaspoop]

I saw equally passionate opinions on both sides, but it's true that Twitter isn't the SRB2 community. Someone was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to convey with this message.
Could you please elaborate for me?

 

[RoyKirbs]

If his prior behavior like off-color political stances was taken into account for his current ban, what was the point of bringing him back to begin with?

Simply put, because we thought he got better about this kind of thing and trusted him. When he ended up re-negging on this mutual trust and started radicalizing his stance, he couldn't stay.

Like really that's all it comes down to. We naturally have a universal trust that anybody whose joined the community can just be cool and rational and all think critically about the current conversation and, indeed, the art on display. That is a trust we have for absolutely everybody to not like...act shitty over an independent work made from spare time and to other people.

 

[Scizor300]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to convey with this message.
Could you please elaborate for me?

Everyone had passionate opinions on release day and made their own conclusions. Glaber just aired his in the community channels, and that's why he's no longer part of them.

Like really that's all it comes down to. We naturally have a universal trust that anybody whose joined the community can just be cool and rational and all think critically about the current conversation and, indeed, the art on display. That is a trust we have for absolutely everybody to not like...act shitty over an independent work made from spare time and to other people.

That's understandable, but I can also see why someone seeing the initial surprises of the 2.0 release and thinking that trust is no longer there. Those factors should have been plainly laid out to the community so everyone could have had input on how the add-ons ended up being gated before it became an issue to begin with.

 

[Othius]

Everyone had passionate opinions on release day and made their own conclusions. Glaber just aired his in the community channels, and that's why he's no longer part of them.

Nonono, you don't understand. Glaber had passionate opinions and aired them, and that was actually a non-issue.

The real issue was telling people that they shouldn't bother to mod the game because it "won't have any audience", and upvoting a post calling Kart Krew (and I quote), retards. This goes far beyond voicing passionate opinions and straight into the realm of bad faith discussion and complete disrespect to the developers. It has nothing to do with KK being unreceptive to criticism.

 

[lnferno]

Nonono, you don't understand. Glaber had passionate opinions and aired them, and that was actually a non-issue.

The real issue was telling people that they shouldn't bother to mod the game because it "won't have any audience", and upvoting a post calling Kart Krew (and I quote), retards. This goes far beyond voicing passionate opinions and straight into the realm of bad faith discussion and complete disrespect to the developers. It has nothing to do with KK being unreceptive to criticism.

After all, there wouldn't have even been a 2.1 update (which primarily toned down the main critiques of the tutorial and unlocks!) had Kart Krew been unreceptive to criticism.
As I said earlier in this convo (either this thread or its' original thread), there is a difference between criticism and toxicity. Glaber, by own admission and by these details, ascends from criticism to toxicity, and therefore is no longer protected under the right to voice critique.
If Glaber admits fault, there is no use in defending him.

 

[Pikaspoop]

Everyone had passionate opinions on release day and made their own conclusions. Glaber just aired his in the community channels, and that's why he's no longer part of them.

Yeah this is just straight up incorrect. Like Othius said, Glaber's ban had nothing to do with critiquing Ring Racers.
Please don't assume the moderation team is concerned about critique against RR, as I said previously the KK team wants critique to make the game as best as it can be. What needs to be understood is the boundaries of what critique is.

If you made a creation and I said derogatory things towards it and didn't offer any actual suggestions to fix it, would you feel like I gave you something useful? I understand that gamers especially tend say their unfiltered thoughts when playing a game, but it's important to understand that KK is a group of sonic fans who spent 5 years of their lives to give you this game for absolutely free, so it's important to not share unfiltered and hateful thoughts in their community. /srs

Just be decent to people, save your hatred for AAA companies that deserve it :P /sj

 

[Scizor300]

It has nothing to do with KK being unreceptive to criticism.

That's certainly a factor in all this though. Whether it was over potential leaks/backports/etc, keeping specific elements like this close to KK's chest did them no favors building trust with the community. It was 99% going to be controversial if they rolled with it (they did and it was), and a lot of issues, including the namesake of this thread, would have probably been quashed before it became a problem.

Ultimately the words were said, so what's done is done.

 

[Tatsuru]

Everyone had passionate opinions on release day and made their own conclusions. Glaber just aired his in the community channels, and that's why he's no longer part of them.

Are you under the impression that only Glaber had something negative to say on Ring Racers in our spaces? I can understand being wrong because you couldn't be there to see it, but we had a lot more people being hysterical and toxic, so I don't know why the idea that we only banned Glaber of all people for it is so appealing to you.

But sure, here's what Glaber had to say completely unprovoked to someone just normally seeking info about addons:

As you must know (because you were there) Glaber was the most bullied community member for several years simply because his work wasn't up to standard, and multiple times he was simply told he should stop trying. One might think the experience would've stuck with him enough that he wouldn't be outright discouraging people from making mods since, but he unfortunately has a pattern where he only learns things after there's some sort of consequence otherwise. He would've been booted in seconds had he said this to anyone else about their mod.

It didn't help that he was effectively SRB2 staff at the time, so we expected some responsibility for his demeanor. Again, he admits to all of this.

And yet you haven't been banned. Have you considered that this could be because nobody truly understands what your beef is, and they actually want to hash things out with you civilly?

Speaking of patterns, I've interacted with Sandwichface enough times to tell that he's not a man to stick to discussions he's started, not matter how patient or cordial you're willing to be. It's going to be a miracle if he even responds to this thread anymore, but here's hoping.

 

[Pikaspoop]

That's certainly a factor in all this though. Whether it was over potential leaks/backports/etc, keeping specific elements like this close to KK's chest did them no favors building trust with the community. It was 99% going to be controversial if they rolled with it (they did and it was), and a lot of issues, including the namesake of this thread, would have probably been quashed before it became a problem.

Ultimately the words were said, so what's done is done.

None of your examples support your opening statement of "That's (RR critique) certainly a factor in all this though".
The simple truth is that KK did not ban anybody for RR critique, they're not like old guard at all. In fact, they're awesome folks!

So please try to keep this discussion on topic, don't de-rail into leaks, backports, and whatever else that isn't related to the topic of this thread.
If anyone here has issues with the game, KK will in fact appreciate your input. Just be respectful, and you'll be fine! :)

 

[Fenriraga]

Oh boy, making my first ever post to the forum be in here of all places feels like a MASSIVE mistake, but as a decade old server hopper and lurker it's just really hard to not want to say my piece on all of this with years of watching things like this unfold here.

I absolutely had issues with RR, and I still do despite genuinely enjoying the game. Kart Krew was given plenty of genuine feedback that I KNOW they weeded out from the sea of people screaming at them, and despite what their initial vision for the game may have been, 2.1 and various comments from the team have clearly showed they're listening to criticism.

Wether they did or did not listen to "feedback" from people like Glaber and Sandwich doesn't matter. It was literally years ago. The have a much better pull of feedback now that it's public and they've shown they're trying. Acting out with stuff like "I won" and bringing the team down on day literally 0 of the release is some next level pettiness, especially when (spoilers) Ring Racers is doing just fine.

It's not my place to say wether or not banning Glaber entirely was the right call but obviously the current team has infinitely more experience with him than any of us could claim to and they felt they did what they had to. Wether it was the right call is, again, not my place to say, but what's done is done and I know it wasn't some knee jerk reaction.

That's all what it is, but why I'm really bothering to post is everything with Sandwichface and everything around that entire can of worms.

I found Sandwich back with his various videos about the thok "removal/replacement" as I'm sure a lot of people did, and despite his slightly-above-average venomosity towards the current STJR I did very much agree with a lot of his points and do consider myself a thok defender. That being said, I also understand the team was (and very much is) obviously experimenting and finding what works, and that if push came to shove I'm sure there would be a frame one "Thok return" Lua that I'd be content with. Or maybe something better! I sure don't know, because 2.3 is still very much in progress.

So I go to some of his other videos. I love 2.2 to absolute bits, but with being around since 2.0 I definitely still had my own critiques with how things were/are being handled so it was refreshing in some ways to feel like someone was speaking them out a bit more.

Each and every video I went through I just felt more like STJR hit pieces and "old thing from before you-know-who was removed from the team was better" and less like actual criticism of what was actually being handled. Yes, I absolutely didn't agree with the addon policy changes but also at least understood what it's trying to accomplish. People work hard on content for this game and is art in its own way, so I can understand creators being reluctant about just letting anyone maintain and modify things after they may be gone. I don't agree with the methods, but I always try to understand the rational, because there always is one. And this is a big community of very talented individuals, regardless of how I or others might feel about some.

But more and more I just couldn't bring myself to understand why someone like Sandwich would just make their entire personality be just... bashing a team. I understand not agreeing with team choices, I understand frustration with the direction the game may or may not be going, and he's completely free to voice said gripes. But I just don't understand how someone can be content going around being a Drama Alert for a Sonic Fangame that has had so many drastic changes over the years, not just with 2.2 and what we've seen of 3. So I stopped watching and just figured he'd be an echo chamber for the old-hat that would just remain that.

Then I see shit like this. "Take the fucki g L?" "I won?" Relishing and bathing in a poor response to a god damn kart racer fangame passion project just because you don't like a team of people you've barely even talked to? Harping on easily-faked "evidence" like its gospel with no proof of any of your other wild claims? Even if that post WAS true, I wouldn't hold it against a dev to lash out in frustration when a 5 year project is getting bombarded with negativity. If that was their belief, that clearly didn't outweigh the team making the changes they did.

How old are you man? I don't know who you think you're doing this for, but I'm pretty sure any and everyone from the OG STJR would much rather turn their head away and disassociate with you than put you forth as some kind of "old hat savior". And if you're doing it for yourself... point stands, you're making a fool of yourself.

I don't care what beef you have with people I don't know, stop making it your entire personality and do something constructive. Help preserve the content you claim to love. Work on something that matters to you that doesn't involve associating with people you so adamantly hate. Save yourself the embarrassment. You are very clearly someone who does know what they're talking about with some aspects of game design, I've absolutely seen it between the lines. Constantly turning this community into a soap opera just isn't worth it, man.

 

[KrazeeTobi]

Yeah, I've been very prudent about not sharing the contents of that conversation like you asked. You thought it was important so I took it seriously. The fact that we HAVE SPOKEN is not private.

Once again, who are you to criticize anyone for "lying", anyhow? You're the person who posted this, without even verifying it. And a step above simply perpetuating misinfo, you then proceed to tell everyone that it was a post I deleted and that people shouldn't believe me. You're the one who tells lies, don't project on me, mister.
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I'm a bit late to do so (and this is something I admit), but I do want to personally apologize to @Charybdizs as I was also spreading that image without checking first. I absolutely should have known better especially since we're on really good terms. I felt I needed to say something after staying silent for a couple of days to reflect.

 

[lnferno]

I'm a bit late to do so (and this is something I admit), but I do want to personally apologize to @Charybdizs as I was also spreading that image without checking first. I absolutely should have known better especially since we're on really good terms. I felt I needed to say something after staying silent for a couple of days to reflect.

On the bright side, it is because of you that we even have that community post preserved WITH the acknowledgement, alongside me having tuned in at all.