EarlessSonicIsBased
Member
That's alright. I could wait 20, heck even 30 years for those. If everyone leaves the dev team until then, i am taking lead on the project and finishing it all myself. Yeah.
2.3 Discussion
- Thread starter The Dommo
- Start date
Vincent The Rabbear
Professional Eediot
What are you trying to do here?
EarlessSonicIsBased
Member
To be funny. Which i have failed in since i was a young man, but i succeed in other endeavours.
Ace Dragon
Member
You technically can finish the campaign yourself since the modding functionality is robust enough to do that, but I would not expect Sonic Team Jr. to just slot the levels in if you offered them.
I have my own level pack being worked on, so I can only wish you luck in trying to match the quality of the existing zones.
EarlessSonicIsBased
Member
Yeah, now that you say it, if a modder was good enough, they could make the last few levels on-par with the existing ones. And thanks, but i don't really plan on doing that, i said it for the funnies.
Ace Dragon
Member
At this point, it may not matter quite as much if the team ended up focusing more on the Lua API, graphics rendering, and general engine features than new official content.
The reason is because we are not near as dependent on new campaign content as we once were, advanced mapping and complex character creation is a lot easier than before and it is quite trivial to load up addons (unlike 2.1 which required console commands until very late in the cycle). Now I still believe there is value in completing the campaign according to SSNTails' original vision, but there is no hurry considering the platform the game has become.
The reason is because we are not near as dependent on new campaign content as we once were, advanced mapping and complex character creation is a lot easier than before and it is quite trivial to load up addons (unlike 2.1 which required console commands until very late in the cycle). Now I still believe there is value in completing the campaign according to SSNTails' original vision, but there is no hurry considering the platform the game has become.
EarlessSonicIsBased
Member
That makes sense. Playing mystic realm CE doesn't even feel like playing a mod, it feels like an actual new campaign. So with stuff like that i think we can hold on until, and if, they add the rest of the stuff.
Something I didn't see addressed amid GFZ1 remake discussion is the primary benefit to curved slopes—they facilitate smooth turns that can be accomplished without needing to change your directional input and camera at the same time. It's much more comfortable than flipping your camera 180 degrees on flat ground and will be particularly appreciated by controller users.
yfyfyfyfyfy
The dumbest man
of course I understand that this is WIP, but I don't like the new redesigned GFZ at all. I don’t like that the level is now open (death pits in act 1??? whaaaa-)
also what kind of crazy slope is this wtf. does this relate to the physics changes that Nev3r threw a few years ago? looks crazy considering that this is the first 5 seconds of the very first level. perhaps there may be a problem that the level(-s) will be too much overcooked
of course, you are a developer, you know better and probably 2.3 will be more friendly to controllers, but I believe that this should not affect keyboard-mouse users. I don't want to press "w" to win. who even had a problem turning the camera 180 degrees?
oh, controller users, I forgot.
also what kind of crazy slope is this wtf. does this relate to the physics changes that Nev3r threw a few years ago? looks crazy considering that this is the first 5 seconds of the very first level. perhaps there may be a problem that the level(-s) will be too much overcooked
you see, the entire gameplay was designed specifically for the keyboard and mouse. SRB2 requires fast and precise movements that are only possible with the mouse. SRB2 was originally designed for computers (using a keyboard and mouse) and I believe that SRB2 is the only Sonic game (unlike all official and fan games) that is designed specifically for the computer. I think this argument is completely false.
of course, you are a developer, you know better and probably 2.3 will be more friendly to controllers, but I believe that this should not affect keyboard-mouse users. I don't want to press "w" to win. who even had a problem turning the camera 180 degrees?
oh, controller users, I forgot.
icomplainlots
Member
ok! all of yall have great suggestions! but i do think the vanilla srb2 camaign is lack of the stages with mostly pinball bumpers (casino, carnival, and so on)
not that it was ever BAD to not include one!
it just stuck out to me as kinda strange!
not that it was ever BAD to not include one!
it just stuck out to me as kinda strange!
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I wouldn't be surprised if a section of Dark City Zone ends up being like this. Whole levels where the player is generally at the mercy of springs and bumpers probably wouldn't be very fun, but it could make for a memorable level section.
Jammin'
DISAPPEAR!
I don't think a pinball stage would be very fun within the SRB2 engine, personally.
tropluckyfr
Certified bad modder.
ok so fun (not fun) fact
the focus became controllers now
just correcting that
its the sad truth cus of the game being more main stream
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I'm not really sure what's so bad about a shift in design mentality for the sake of accessibility. You make it sound like the game is better if it requires heavily precise mouse inputs but not only were these "required" precise inputs never a thing in the vanilla game to begin with, but even if they were it seems to me like these would just be difficult and infuriating sections whether you were on KB+M or not.
I haven't heard anything about the devs deliberately going out of their way to make KB+M players experiences with the game unpleasant. They're just designing the game with controller accessibility in mind. That doesn't necessarily mean the watering down you seem to think it does. It just means that you should be able to have fun whether you prefer to play with a controller or not. SRB2's identity as a game has never been outright defined by KB+M controls, it just didn't have much in the way of support for controllers in any way that felt practical and didn't require you to go out of your way to set it up until relatively recently. If you still want to use KB+M to raise the skill ceiling, that's not being taken away from you. It's just gradually becoming more fun and practical to play with controller, that's all.
InfernoMelon
Honwy is cooilo dudey
Do you have any proof that the any of the devs said this?
I'm very confused - what part of controller-friendly level design that features smoother turns means that keyboard gameplay becomes "press 'W' to win"? Did you maybe understand that the game will turn you automatically or something?
If the game was ever designed solely around KB+M, that's not the case anymore. People are bound to expect that a 3D platformer plays well with a controller and we want to make sure it's a pleasant experience for both control schemes going forward. If this ever affects KB+M negatively, I'm afraid you won't be able to tell just from a screenshot of a slope.
RedLilyQueen
Member
re: the GFZ1 redesign concept, I've seen deriding of the open edges without consideration for the fact that, for Sonic and 3D platformers as a whole, that's not particularly unusual. It's an iffy example contextually, but take SA2's Green Hill, for one. That did blocky islands in water perfectly fine and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say something negative about how that looks. Mario does that kind of thing all the time too. Emerald Coast in SA1 has plenty of invisible walling at the level boundaries, and a few death-by-pit situations as well.
The thing is, it's decently fair to assume the average player isn't going to randomly throw themself off- or at- the edge of the map for no reason- although one thing I will say is that GFZ probably oughta have fences all around the edges of the map, for visual clarity re: level boundaries, if not so no one can accidentally get flung off the edge for going too fast and being unfamiliar with the controls. Invisible walling beyond that is up to the devs, but either way, it's not strange for 3D platformers as a whole. Mario 3D World, for another example, is perfectly happy to let the player fling themself off an edge from the first level, because why would you in most every situation?
All that said, the criticism of the GFZ1 redesign is valuable nonetheless. Knowing a playerbase's thoughts can help ultimately decide on a direction to take things, even something as little as how to handle the edges of the map. Whether there be fences or invisible walls, open edges or canyons, I'm sure it'll still turn out great.
The thing is, it's decently fair to assume the average player isn't going to randomly throw themself off- or at- the edge of the map for no reason- although one thing I will say is that GFZ probably oughta have fences all around the edges of the map, for visual clarity re: level boundaries, if not so no one can accidentally get flung off the edge for going too fast and being unfamiliar with the controls. Invisible walling beyond that is up to the devs, but either way, it's not strange for 3D platformers as a whole. Mario 3D World, for another example, is perfectly happy to let the player fling themself off an edge from the first level, because why would you in most every situation?
All that said, the criticism of the GFZ1 redesign is valuable nonetheless. Knowing a playerbase's thoughts can help ultimately decide on a direction to take things, even something as little as how to handle the edges of the map. Whether there be fences or invisible walls, open edges or canyons, I'm sure it'll still turn out great.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
There's bottomless pits in City Escape in SA2, There's places you can fall into the water and die in Seaside Hill in Sonic Heroes, there's bottomless chasms you can fall into in Westopolis in Shadow The Hedgehog, there's places you can fall into the water and die in Wave Ocean in Sonic 06, etc.
Even in some of the 2D games, there's examples of bottomless pits and even crushers in the first zones. There's a few sections it's possible to fall into bottomless pits in Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1, there's places it's technically possible to drown in Angel Island Zone in Sonic 3, there's places you can fall into bottomless pits or even get crushed in Route 99 in Advance 3, etc.
In general, it's not only not unusual for such a thing to be totally possible, but it's actually fairly normal for the franchise. The idea that including it as a possible thing that can happen to the player in the first level is bad design is as such a bit off base. It's instead more important that the general difficulty be kept to a minimum and have visual cues that going that way is dangerous. If the player does die to an easily avoidable bottomless pit, they will learn that bottomless pits are a hazard and mentally put more effort into avoiding them in the future. GFZ1 is known for having pretty easily accessible 1-ups, either via monitors that hand them out or via things such as the Armageddon shield tutorial or it being fairly easy to collect 100 rings with the help of the attraction shield. As such, there's plenty of room for players to experiment and not get any punishment worse than a slap on the wrist for making a mistake.
In this case from a visual design standpoint these sections appear like "Deep" water that the player can't see down into, with the visual distinction being that if water is safe to enter then it is darker blue and you can see down into it. Notice the reflection of the skybox causing the island in the distance to appear vertically mirrored. We can't see it due to these being still images, but I'd wager there's even a wavy effect applied to the reflection to further signify that this is an area where dangerous water is that you should stay away from. The only difference I'd probably try would be to make the dangerous water that kills you darker blue to look more like the ocean, and have the safe water a lighter blue to create the visual of it being more shallow freshwater that is safe to enter. Basically, swapping the colors of what kills you and what doesn't.
InfernoMelon
Honwy is cooilo dudey
Personally, my problems with this GFZ1 Redesign are that bottomless pits placement is so out of place/weirdly designed compared to the actual placement of bottomless pits in the Sonic games, it's like more realistic? or reasonable compared to the redesigned GFZ1 looking more like a random island from nowhere (now, just because it's more open doesn't mean, it's actually good IMO), I really, really hope this design isn't final (yeah, I know it's a wip but I don't trust devs with these types of things nowadays lmao)
also these walls in the back are ugly af
time gear
Eternity in an hour
GFZ has always been on an island, it's just more visually apparent this is the case now. The general implication is that THZ takes place on the same island as well, with Sonic and friends gradually making their way closer to one of Eggman's factories. The only thing still missing is that you can't see the Greenflower City ruins anywhere, although that might be what DCZ ends up actually being.
Honestly it doesn't really look all that different in terms of openness, it just looks like the player has a bit more freedom when it comes to traversing over what used to be harder (but still possible) to scale walls, creating a larger number of viable pathways for the player to take through the same area. The actual size and layout seems generally the same otherwise. It just seems easier to make use of mobility to your advantage using slopes, which if anything just means the level will be faster to speedrun through if you're so inclined and easier to explore if you're not.