2.3 Discussion

[tropluckyfr]

Do you have any proof that the any of the devs said this?

Arguments happened in the discord about changes made to srb2
Some even accuse the srb2 dev team being mainly being on controllers due to said changes
It did get stated that the focus is at least to make the game not be forcibly controlled like doom
Hence changes like simp-
I mean automatic being used by default now

 

[aquaponiee]

tbh i think that slope is there because it's cool and fun to interact with and not because of the camera

 

[whee1]

It's probably too much to ask for but it would be pretty cool if we could get Mario as an unlockable character, maybe locked behind beating Pipe Towers.

I do really hope to see Dark City Zone. My imagination goes wild thinking of the possibilities we could see implemented in the level design. Starting out at street level, eventually working our way indoors and outdoors again a few times, moving between multiple different buildings, maybe even one of them could be a museum of some sort with all kinds of crazy exhibits built into the level design. Eventually end up onto the rooftops, jumping from building to building

remember how act 2 took place in the sewers? i wonder if one of the paths will have that in act 1

 

[Moony]

new gfz looks pretty from the few screenshots i have seen !!
good job stjr!!

 

[Rolly Polly Pal]

I will say the only thing I never really liked from these screenshots was how "open" the level looks if that makes sense? I do sort of like the enclosed feeling current GFZ has, which differentiates it from the first 3 games' opening green levels that do feel very open and expansive, in part thanks to their backgrounds. GFZ1 is also going to be the first real location outside the tutorial where players are going to be messing and experimenting with their controls so I think throwing in a pit like that is a bit of a questionable design choice (obviously we don't know where the screenshots are located in the level, but I think my point still stands). Of course as Xavier said it's already been developed considerably so I imagine the final product will be drastically different.

 

[Mr Beagle]

I will say the only thing I never really liked from these screenshots was how "open" the level looks if that makes sense? I do sort of like the enclosed feeling current GFZ has, which differentiates it from the first 3 games' opening green levels that do feel very open and expansive, in part thanks to their backgrounds. GFZ1 is also going to be the first real location outside the tutorial where players are going to be messing and experimenting with their controls so I think throwing in a pit like that is a bit of a questionable design choice (obviously we don't know where the screenshots are located in the level, but I think my point still stands). Of course as Xavier said it's already been developed considerably so I imagine the final product will be drastically different.

It might be worth saying again, that the increasingly open look of Greenflower zone is simple due to it now being much easier to create such maps in the engine without running into serious performance issues or even into rendering artifacts.

Originally, mappers had a lot less flexibility in being able to make open spaces because a design defined high walls, canyons, corridors, and rooms were simply what worked best with an engine derived from Doom. However, what would now be the SRB2 engine has evolved significantly since then and is a lot more optimized than before. The freedom will only grow once all of the technology developed for Ring Racers makes its way in.

I am not saying that all of the walls should be torn down if that is needed to make sure Greenflower remains recognizable, but the official level design should logically see upgrades as the engine is.

 

[Rolly Polly Pal]

It might be worth saying again, that the increasingly open look of Greenflower zone is simple due to it now being much easier to create such maps in the engine without running into serious performance issues or even into rendering artifacts.

Originally, mappers had a lot less flexibility in being able to make open spaces because a design defined high walls, canyons, corridors, and rooms were simply what worked best with an engine derived from Doom. However, what would now be the SRB2 engine has evolved significantly since then and is a lot more optimized than before. The freedom will only grow once all of the technology developed for Ring Racers makes its way in.

I am not saying that all of the walls should be torn down if that is needed to make sure Greenflower remains recognizable, but the official level design should logically see upgrades as the engine is.

Oh obviously I get that, and I don't think this design philosophy necessarily should apply to every single level in the game, but Greenflower is already a fairly hilly level canonically located next to mountains and I think that pairs nicely with its current level design. I'm not saying that the level should be entirely enclosed corridors, but I do like the high wall aesthetic that makes it feel like you're at a mountain whose peak always seems to be just out of reach. It blends both acts very well together, with Act 1 mostly being a linear affair that starts at the base, followed by act 2 which sees you climbing up the "mountain" and emerging in this very awe-inspiring open area with lots of water and tall walls surrounding you on all sides. You can even choose to read act 3 as taking place at the very top for a cinematic first encounter with Eggman. Obviously this is my own personal interpretation and everyone is going to have different thoughts on it, but it's that sort of feeling that I really hope is preserved in the redesign. I have faith in the devs that they will do a good job though (and I'll probably still enjoy it regardless )

 

[Chipjam]

It might be worth saying again, that the increasingly open look of Greenflower zone is simple due to it now being much easier to create such maps in the engine without running into serious performance issues or even into rendering artifacts.

Originally, mappers had a lot less flexibility in being able to make open spaces because a design defined high walls, canyons, corridors, and rooms were simply what worked best with an engine derived from Doom. However, what would now be the SRB2 engine has evolved significantly since then and is a lot more optimized than before. The freedom will only grow once all of the technology developed for Ring Racers makes its way in.

I am not saying that all of the walls should be torn down if that is needed to make sure Greenflower remains recognizable, but the official level design should logically see upgrades as the engine is.

thought id drop my 1 cent here (because what ill be saying is rather short)

i had my opinions mature ever since my last post here - i gave them some thought and i finally have my final thoughts.
while it is true that the engine over the years has been able to handle more and more open spaces, and its not necessarily wrong to have more open spaces, i think, specially in the case of GFZ, just because you can, doesnt mean you should.
GFZ shouldn't have this much empty space, because the player isn't supposed to be going crazy fast yet (so no need for extra room to not bump into walls). as the beginner zone it should be a way for the player to get used to the game's controls and playstyle (while yes, there is the tutorial zone, it only shows you the basics and doesnt give the player much room to play around and get a feel for the game's controls.), and speedrunners wont need open room even when theyre going fast because speedrunners are good at the game, so they can easily maneuver around whatever room they got, be it small or big.
i think the big open spaces make the zone look too empty, and on the topic of emptiness- i think the thok barriers did well on the aesthetic of the level! it gave a more closed-in vibe, and what was beyond them was up to the players imagination, a forest? huge plains with a couple of hills throughout? maybe a village could be somewhere there? who knows? it made the level feel a good bit more magical. due to the lack of any walls to block whats OOB, all you get are long, empty stretches of water with seemingly no end, accross all 4 directions. it gives a feeling of being on a stranded island, and for some it might make them feel intimidated or uneasy. even when a player saw that there was only water beyond the thok barriers, the magic of imagination was already built, and even then it didnt break. no potentially unsettling feeling or anything!

anyways, to not be completely negative here, i will give credit to the mappers for the level's beauty and texture variety itself, though i know some people that think it looks ugly, i fw it
and hey, since 2.3 gfz1 has developed a bunch than compared to the screenshots shown, maybe the issues i or someone else had were addressed already? and maybe the level inst nesrly as open, and just the angles made it look emptier than it really is? but since theres no public testing version thing, theres no way to really tell, and all we have are these 4 zoomed out screenshots to form opinions off.

 

[Mr Beagle]

On the canon part, it was once a common practice for game canon and game story in general to be written in a way that synergized with engine limitations (so Greenflower being a region of valleys and mountains made sense considering what was available for the team to work with as the engine was still very much Doom, though they already had basic FoF's and liquids).

and for some it might make them feel intimidated or uneasy. even when a player saw that there was only water beyond the thok barriers, the magic of imagination was already built, and even then it didnt break. no potentially unsettling feeling or anything!

This could be addressed with the creation of 3D terrain beyond the playable areas (this would require invisible walls, but it is possible to clearly define them with different textures and texture scaling will only make that easier). Even now, it is fairly easy to see the surrounding water with Tails and Knuckles as your characters, unplayable terrain would take care of that as well.

 

[Rolly Polly Pal]

thought id drop my 1 cent here (because what ill be saying is rather short)

i had my opinions mature ever since my last post here - i gave them some thought and i finally have my final thoughts.
while it is true that the engine over the years has been able to handle more and more open spaces, and its not necessarily wrong to have more open spaces, i think, specially in the case of GFZ, just because you can, doesnt mean you should.
GFZ shouldn't have this much empty space, because the player isn't supposed to be going crazy fast yet (so no need for extra room to not bump into walls). as the beginner zone it should be a way for the player to get used to the game's controls and playstyle (while yes, there is the tutorial zone, it only shows you the basics and doesnt give the player much room to play around and get a feel for the game's controls.), and speedrunners wont need open room even when theyre going fast because speedrunners are good at the game, so they can easily maneuver around whatever room they got, be it small or big.
i think the big open spaces make the zone look too empty, and on the topic of emptiness- i think the thok barriers did well on the aesthetic of the level! it gave a more closed-in vibe, and what was beyond them was up to the players imagination, a forest? huge plains with a couple of hills throughout? maybe a village could be somewhere there? who knows? it made the level feel a good bit more magical. due to the lack of any walls to block whats OOB, all you get are long, empty stretches of water with seemingly no end, accross all 4 directions. it gives a feeling of being on a stranded island, and for some it might make them feel intimidated or uneasy. even when a player saw that there was only water beyond the thok barriers, the magic of imagination was already built, and even then it didnt break. no potentially unsettling feeling or anything!

anyways, to not be completely negative here, i will give credit to the mappers for the level's beauty and texture variety itself, though i know some people that think it looks ugly, i fw it
and hey, since 2.3 gfz1 has developed a bunch than compared to the screenshots shown, maybe the issues i or someone else had were addressed already? and maybe the level inst nesrly as open, and just the angles made it look emptier than it really is? but since theres no public testing version thing, theres no way to really tell, and all we have are these 4 zoomed out screenshots to form opinions off.

You really hit the nail on the head. I agree with the texture variety point too actually. I fuck heavy with the cool zigzaggy wall texture that I think is not used at all in the actual game so I'm glad to see it getting some use here.

 

[time gear]

and maybe the level inst nesrly as open, and just the angles made it look emptier than it really is?

Personally it looks to me like the "openness" that everyone is talking about is just an optical illusion caused by the level appearing bigger than it really is and what I assume to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how players will navigate through the stage. It still looks fairly "hallwayish" in the pathway design to me, just in a way that ties the individual hallways together like shoe strings and lets you travel more freely from one to the other if you've got the movement options to take advantage of it on your current character.

The most open looking area we can see is what appears to be the first checkpoint's general location, which to me looks more like a Crash Bandicoot style fork in the road topped by a Sonic 3 style "top path" area above the two lower paths which likely functions as the speedrun route to skip over everything in the lower areas. It overall actually looks really faithful to the idea of being a 3D adaptation of the level design the 2D Classic titles were going for and seems to me like it will still feel fairly closed in if you're navigating the lower routes, just with some opportunities to switch which pathway you are on for exploration and such. It gives me the general vibes of a lower valley area with twists and turns that can be skipped by traveling along the higher forest canopy instead, though this doesn't entirely translate to the aesthetic visuals in the WIP version shown off in the screenshots.

 

[The Mail Man]

Given what I've seen, I'd expect the following in 2.3:

1. New physics. The game will probably have the physics tweaked to be further in line with the 2D classic Sonic games. Higher jump heights, heavier gravity, and slope physics while walking instead of just while rolling I think will definitely be in 2.3. I know that loop-de-loops and such are controversial, mainly due to the high amount of sprites needed to make them work, but regardless I think there's still a good chance for them to be in 2.3, since Ring Racers added a lot of new mechanics compared to SRB2Kart despite worries that the high amount of sprites required to make them work would take too much effort. While Kart Krew is not Sonic Team Jr., both teams share a lot of devs, so I think the comparison to Ring Racers is relevant.

2. New character movesets and sprites. The new movesets and sprites IIRC are coming in 2.2.14, but I think they're still worth mentioning when it comes to 2.3. Amy will be completely reworked so that she resembles herself from XMomentum more, and Fang might be changed to be a little less clunky (no loss of speed from dropping tail bounce in the air, the ability to shoot while moving or in the air perhaps?) and Metal Sonic might get nerfed a bit, as I remember people complaining about dashmode and hover being broken. Sonic will probably lose the Thok. I personally wouldn't be too happy about this, but it's not something that's a dealbreaker or anything (I just like being able to "unga bunga" fling myself through levels.) I'm not sure if the Scrunk will end up being the final replacement, but I think it is possible that it makes the cut.

3. Completely revamped existing levels. GFZ, THZ, DSZ, ACZ, and ERZ will probably receive the most extensive overhauls, while CEZ, RV1, and BCZ will probably see less extensive revamps, but still be retrofitted with more advanced level design to compliment the new physics and enhanced mapmaking tools.

4. New acts for the existing zones. RVZ2, RVZ3, and ERZ3 will probably end up appearing. I'm aware that ERZ3 was cut because that would make for too many bosses in the endgame, but I think it still has a shot of making it in for 2.3 to accompany the complete overhaul of ERZ1 and 2.

5. The completely new levels and revamped old levels will be enhanced with more colour and detail. I saw a discussion post from around 2019 on this exact topic, and I saw a few members of Sonic Team Jr. agree that the game could use some more varied colour palettes. I think it's very likely that the levels that receive the most changes to colours are THZ, DSZ, ERZ, and BCZ, due to the fact that (IMO) they suffer from this problem the most. It could be argued that CEZ also suffers from being too dark, but I think in its case it helps it more than it harms it. As well, I know that Sonic 3 & Knuckles inspired level transitions are something planned for the game, and I think it's likely they could make it in with the campaign overhaul.

6. Several bonus levels will be cut. I think PTZ, TLZ, AGZ, and ATZ are probably going to be cut in 2.3. I believe PTZ (and perhaps Mario Mode as a whole) has a good chance of getting cut because of Nintendo's aggressive copyright claiming of fanworks. Even harmless stuff, like Nintendo addons for the Garry's Mod workshop don't escape Nintendo's wrath. I think Sonic Team Jr. would rather cut PTZ and Mario Mode from the base game than put SRB2 in danger of getting taken down. TLZ could get cut for being generally unpopular, as it's not all that fun to play IMO. AGZ and ATZ could get cut for similar reasons, but also for their connection to a certain someone who is no longer welcome in the SRB2 community.

7. New menus. While the old-school Doom menus are charming, they're also clunky and visually unappealing. I expect the showcased menu overhaul to make it into 2.3.

8. Add-on unloading. Having to turn the game off to unload addons can be pretty annoying, so having the ability to manually unload them in-game would be a much appreciated QOL feature.

9. Software palettes in OpenGL. I personally use OpenGL and prefer it overall to Software rendering, but I definitely think that Software has much more appealing colours. I would really appreciate a way to see those colours while using OpenGL.

10. General polish and enhanced visuals. I think a lot of the game even aside from what I've already mentioned has a good chance of having more polish and visual flair added to it, like the new emblems that have been showcased.

11. A release date of sometime in mid 2025. Speculating on release dates is silly, and for a volunteer fan project like this, perhaps even a little entitled, but regardless I think it's totally possible for 2.3 to come out somewhat soon. If it does end up taking longer, it's no big deal. I already like SRB2 a whole lot the way it is currently, so I'll be perfectly content waiting for as long as it'll take for 2.3 to come out.

12. A great game. I know that's a lot of pressure to put on Sonic Team Jr., but I genuinely think SRB2 2.3 will be a fantastic game. I'm not kidding when I say that SRB2 2.2 is my favorite Sonic game of all time. In the Discord I posted my own personal tier list ranking of Sonic games by how much I liked them, and SRB2 was in top tier along with Sonic Mania and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I have faith in Sonic Team Jr. to make a game that'll blow me away completely.


So, this is my first post on this forum. I've been lurking for about a year or so, and I've finally built up the courage to engage with the community a bit more. I hope this follows all the rules and ettiquette required for posting here, as while I have read the rules, I'm paranoid that I might have accidentally missed something, or I might have said something the wrong way. So, yeah. Hello!

 

[Ale Miles Creator]

Given what I've seen, I'd expect the following in 2.3:

1. New physics. The game will probably have the physics tweaked to be further in line with the 2D classic Sonic games. Higher jump heights, heavier gravity, and slope physics while walking instead of just while rolling I think will definitely be in 2.3. I know that loop-de-loops and such are controversial, mainly due to the high amount of sprites needed to make them work, but regardless I think there's still a good chance for them to be in 2.3, since Ring Racers added a lot of new mechanics compared to SRB2Kart despite worries that the high amount of sprites required to make them work would take too much effort. While Kart Krew is not Sonic Team Jr., both teams share a lot of devs, so I think the comparison to Ring Racers is relevant.

2. New character movesets and sprites. The new movesets and sprites IIRC are coming in 2.2.14, but I think they're still worth mentioning when it comes to 2.3. Amy will be completely reworked so that she resembles herself from XMomentum more, and Fang might be changed to be a little less clunky (no loss of speed from dropping tail bounce in the air, the ability to shoot while moving or in the air perhaps?) and Metal Sonic might get nerfed a bit, as I remember people complaining about dashmode and hover being broken. Sonic will probably lose the Thok. I personally wouldn't be too happy about this, but it's not something that's a dealbreaker or anything (I just like being able to "unga bunga" fling myself through levels.) I'm not sure if the Scrunk will end up being the final replacement, but I think it is possible that it makes the cut.

3. Completely revamped existing levels. GFZ, THZ, DSZ, ACZ, and ERZ will probably receive the most extensive overhauls, while CEZ, RV1, and BCZ will probably see less extensive revamps, but still be retrofitted with more advanced level design to compliment the new physics and enhanced mapmaking tools.

4. New acts for the existing zones. RVZ2, RVZ3, and ERZ3 will probably end up appearing. I'm aware that ERZ3 was cut because that would make for too many bosses in the endgame, but I think it still has a shot of making it in for 2.3 to accompany the complete overhaul of ERZ1 and 2.

5. The completely new levels and revamped old levels will be enhanced with more colour and detail. I saw a discussion post from around 2019 on this exact topic, and I saw a few members of Sonic Team Jr. agree that the game could use some more varied colour palettes. I think it's very likely that the levels that receive the most changes to colours are THZ, DSZ, ERZ, and BCZ, due to the fact that (IMO) they suffer from this problem the most. It could be argued that CEZ also suffers from being too dark, but I think in its case it helps it more than it harms it. As well, I know that Sonic 3 & Knuckles inspired level transitions are something planned for the game, and I think it's likely they could make it in with the campaign overhaul.

6. Several bonus levels will be cut. I think PTZ, TLZ, AGZ, and ATZ are probably going to be cut in 2.3. I believe PTZ (and perhaps Mario Mode as a whole) has a good chance of getting cut because of Nintendo's aggressive copyright claiming of fanworks. Even harmless stuff, like Nintendo addons for the Garry's Mod workshop don't escape Nintendo's wrath. I think Sonic Team Jr. would rather cut PTZ and Mario Mode from the base game than put SRB2 in danger of getting taken down. TLZ could get cut for being generally unpopular, as it's not all that fun to play IMO. AGZ and ATZ could get cut for similar reasons, but also for their connection to a certain someone who is no longer welcome in the SRB2 community.

7. New menus. While the old-school Doom menus are charming, they're also clunky and visually unappealing. I expect the showcased menu overhaul to make it into 2.3.

8. Add-on unloading. Having to turn the game off to unload addons can be pretty annoying, so having the ability to manually unload them in-game would be a much appreciated QOL feature.

9. Software palettes in OpenGL. I personally use OpenGL and prefer it overall to Software rendering, but I definitely think that Software has much more appealing colours. I would really appreciate a way to see those colours while using OpenGL.

10. General polish and enhanced visuals. I think a lot of the game even aside from what I've already mentioned has a good chance of having more polish and visual flair added to it, like the new emblems that have been showcased.

11. A release date of sometime in mid 2025. Speculating on release dates is silly, and for a volunteer fan project like this, perhaps even a little entitled, but regardless I think it's totally possible for 2.3 to come out somewhat soon. If it does end up taking longer, it's no big deal. I already like SRB2 a whole lot the way it is currently, so I'll be perfectly content waiting for as long as it'll take for 2.3 to come out.

12. A great game. I know that's a lot of pressure to put on Sonic Team Jr., but I genuinely think SRB2 2.3 will be a fantastic game. I'm not kidding when I say that SRB2 2.2 is my favorite Sonic game of all time. In the Discord I posted my own personal tier list ranking of Sonic games by how much I liked them, and SRB2 was in top tier along with Sonic Mania and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I have faith in Sonic Team Jr. to make a game that'll blow me away completely.


So, this is my first post on this forum. I've been lurking for about a year or so, and I've finally built up the courage to engage with the community a bit more. I hope this follows all the rules and ettiquette required for posting here, as while I have read the rules, I'm paranoid that I might have accidentally missed something, or I might have said something the wrong way. So, yeah. Hello!

ooh looks so exciting! But Hello!

 

[The Mail Man]

Hi! (I'm bad at introductions)