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Single player collab discussion thread

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Apologies for going silent for a few days, I've been getting exams out of the way. But now that's finished.

So, earlier in 'fun, we were wondering; why is the SKY level the SECOND zone? Sky levels by nature are a giant death pit with stuff floating over it. It'd probably be best to move it to after Haunted House, since that stage ends with a cannonball escape to the skies anyway.
A little late, but Blade envisioned that zone as being quite easy and suggested it himself. Although my proposed zone order is subject to change if people want it, or if the difficulty curve is unbalanced in the finished product.

The CD naming convention is making this a lot more difficult than it should... Are we even doing that? Because some of these levels arn't even doing that.
Quite a few of the suggested zones had alliterative names and people kept it going with name suggestions to make it consistent. It would be nice, but it's not essential. If a level name sounds good without fitting the CD naming convention, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
How about we actually vote for the SP Level Pack Collab's level order, just to sort this out once and for all, like we did with the actual zones chosen in the first place?

As in, someone actually making the effort to start up a voting topic for that, rather than us throwing ideas around and waiting for others to deal with the problem.
Actually, I really suggest against doing that, because it's honestly quite difficult to know what the difficulty of the stage is going to be as you're making it. As an example, when I was building Mystic Realm 4, I intended the level order to be the following:

Jade Coast
Tempest Valley
Sunken Plant
Verdant Forest
Flame Rift
Midnight Freeze
Vulcan Forge
Aerial Garden
Mystic Realm

Obviously when I actually made the stages it became really obvious that I couldn't keep such a level order. I canned Vulcan Forge and put Sunken Plant in its place because the level ended up more difficult than I had originally planned. This is with only a single person making the levels, too. You're far better off saying "I'm planning on making this level easy/average/difficult", making sure you have a few of each type, and not worrying if one of the levels turns out to be too easy/hard because you can rearrange the order later. You just don't want every stage to be easy or hard.
 
thine_robotic_things_of_contain_small_animals_by_neinithelord-d50pbgw.png
Some concept art that I drew a few days ago for some of the badniks. I don't like how the Honeyhive badniks turned out (specifically that deadly drone, eugh) but the rest seem okay! By the way, I made sure that they were all based on animals, and one plant.

GGZ coconuts -> coconut crab, the largest land invertebrate, design based off crabmeat.
GGZ turret -> pitcher plants.
GGZ fish -> blue marlin and other similar fish.
CDZ cloud -> caterpillars of bagworm moths, which make protective casings out of nearby detritus, (this one makes a casing out of stormclouds, hee hee) and I threw in some bombardier beetle in there too.
CDZ tornado thing -> ostracods or seed shrimp, specifically the giant seed shrimp.
FFZ snowman -> the happy-face spider!
ZZZ electric worm -> tomopteris, a genus of deep-sea worms.
 
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...Wow. Those are nice. I especially like the Pitcher Plant, which is an ingenious find, the Worm, and the Penguin. Kudos on going original with the Macaroni Penguin.

Someone want to start spriting these?
 
He's basically the same as the Egg Mobile ZX from the final boss prototype WAD, but there are a few aesthetic changes to help fit the steampunk theme, as well as numerous gameplay changes:

*The first pinch attack was toned down in difficulty, with the turretfire being significantly slower and the rotary attack being a bit easier to dodge.
*The final pinch attack was modified so Eggman waits a short time after the thrown shield detonates to generate a new one, making it easier to damage him.
*If you fail to get close enough to make his shield weaken, he'll only ramp it up one power level instead of returning it to full power (with the exception of the vulnerable-at-the-end phase). For example, this means that being too far away to activate the third and final phase will return the boss to Phase 2 instead of Phase 1.
*Most importantly, the boss makes it very clear that being close to him is helpful to you. After he finishes attacking, you're immediately rewarded for being close enough with a flickering shield, a blaring alarm, and a generally panicked Eggman. This should help make first-time players understand what triggers him to drain his shield and what doesn't.

(NOTE: Because Steam Engine requires custom textures, this arena is not very fitting aesthetically. I would appreciate it if the designer of either Steam Engine Act 1 or 2 would give the arena a visual revamp once the appearance of Steam Engine in general is established. I would advise against recreating it from scratch, however, because of the complex interaction between the boss's SOC and the map's linedef executors.)

JGuXX.png

As you can see, he now fires giant missiles instead of giant energy orbs. Also, by complete coincidence, the timer on both screenshots reads 0:09.

Object Slots: 400-409
State Slots: 2000-2125
Sprite Slot: F025

Download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/l5n6s1
Besides SEZ3 itself being in need of an aesthetic redesign, both bosses could use custom sprites, as they are both recolors at the moment. This isn't really necessary, but it might make them seem more polished.

Criticism, suggestions, glitch reports, and feedback in general is appreciated. I'll be interested to hear how much better you think the Egg Proximity is than its previous incarnation, as well as what you make of the concept and execution of ZZZ3's boss. Thanks for replying, if you decide to.

Wasn't the Steam Engine boss supposed to be Steampunk Metal Sonic? Or steampunk... anything? Especially not another Egg Mobile edit? I know there's probably going to be a final boss to a single act zone or something, but at THIS late in the game, the last thing we should see is another Egg Mobile edit, especially one that has nothing to do with the theme.

For one thing, when I think of a steampunk boss, I can't really see lasers or energy balls. I think of more "physical" means of projectiles like old-fashioned bullets, cannonballs, gears, things like that. And being powered by steam, of course. A better example for a boss would probably be some "core" type boss, where most attacks come from sector scenery and you could destroy them, but the core would repair them over time. Just throwing some ideas out.
 
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Wasn't the Steam Engine boss supposed to be Steampunk Metal Sonic? Or steampunk... anything? Especially not another Egg Mobile edit?

As I said in the original post, Whackjood has decided that the Egg Proximity should be used at the end of Steam Engine if he deems it playable enough. The steampunk Metal Sonic will probably be a miniboss. Also, the reason that it uses Egg Mobile sprites is that I don't have any proper sprites for it, so the current ones are placeholders. Once again, if you look at my original post, you'll see that I requested that someone design new and more fitting sprites for it.
 
Different sprites wont change what it is; another egg mobile edit. Placeholder or no, NOBODY wants to other fighting Egg Mobile again.
 
Different sprites wont change what it is; another egg mobile edit. Placeholder or no, NOBODY wants to other fighting Egg Mobile again.

Have you even played it? Besides the dashing backwards after getting hit, it behaves almost NOTHING like the Egg Mobile. Look at the SOC and you'll see that it wasn't edited from the Egg Mobile like the Egg Mobile X or Egg Fighter was, it was designed almost entirely from scratch (even though it overrides a few of the Egg Mobile's state and object slots to save freeslot space). Either you haven't played it, as I suspect, or you have a very broad definition of what counts as an Egg Mobile edit.
 
In all honesty, I kind of have to support D00D's side on this. It really is just an Egg Mobile edit. It floats, moves, only shoots projectiles, and Robotnik is inside it. It's a very, very big and, if you ask me, well-done Egg Mobile edit, but it's an Egg Mobile edit, no matter how hard you try to hide it.
 
None of the differences he does make it different enough to justify it being anything more than "another egg mobile". All he does is spam different flavors of ammo, do the dumb backpedal-backwards-and-then-several-feet-high thing, and shrink you, which only makes the boss more annoying for BOTH parties since not only is he flying away with the stupid broken retreating, but he can hardly hit you because you're even harder to hit. It really just feels like any other half-hour Egg Mobile edit.
 
None of the differences he does make it different enough to justify it being anything more than "another egg mobile". All he does is spam different flavors of ammo, do the dumb backpedal-backwards-and-then-several-feet-high thing, and shrink you, which only makes the boss more annoying for BOTH parties since not only is he flying away with the stupid broken retreating, but he can hardly hit you because you're even harder to hit. It really just feels like any other half-hour Egg Mobile edit.

Ummm... he flies towards you during the shrinking attack. And "all he does is spam different flavors of ammo"? The Egg Slimer spams only ONE flavor of ammo, and I don't see you complaining about it. The Sea Egg isn't much better either. It seems my second assumption was correct: you consider a lot of different things Egg Mobile edits, even bosses like this which require a completely different strategy to defeat. This boss is about as much like the Egg Mobile as Metal Sonic from PPZ was, for another example, and I don't recall you being annoyed about that in your review of the level. Yes, he does use A_SkullAttack to move around, but once again, that isn't exactly rare. Yes, he does fire projectiles directly at you, but so do most other bosses, and he also fires projectiles in a circular fashion and in a cloud of explosions while dashing at you. I'm sorry, but I really don't see how this "half-hour" (actually three-day) boss is enough like the Egg Mobile for it be considered an edit.
 
... Egg Slimer ... Sea Egg ...

Egg Slimer is vastly different because he's fixed on a set axis, and his projectiles don't home in on you. Not to mention they linger on the ground as traps to hurt you. His pinch mode completely changes the way he plays, and he instead bounds towards you spewing slime everywhere.

Sea Egg moves in fixed directions, and well this is really the only difference aside from the rising water gimmick it can use and the fact that it's completely invincible until it decides to show itself.

Your SEZ3 boss is Egg Mobile mkII. It shoots a lot of shit in a lot of places, and runs around just like the Egg Mobile does. It just has different patterns.
 
Egg Slimer is vastly different because he's fixed on a set axis, and his projectiles don't home in on you. Not to mention they linger on the ground as traps to hurt you. His pinch mode completely changes the way he plays, and he instead bounds towards you spewing slime everywhere.

Sea Egg moves in fixed directions, and well this is really the only difference aside from the rising water gimmick it can use and the fact that it's completely invincible until it decides to show itself.

Your SEZ3 boss is Egg Mobile mkII. It shoots a lot of shit in a lot of places, and runs around just like the Egg Mobile does. It just has different patterns.
Clearly I'm not going to convince either you or D00D64 of anything, so I'm just going to stop trying, although I still don't understand your reasoning. Instead, I'm going to ask a more practical question: Do you believe that my boss's similarities to the Egg Mobile should prevent it from being included in the pack? While it does share some features, admittedly, the strategy you use to beat it is as different from the Egg Mobile as, say, Brak Eggman. IMO, this makes it a sufficiently new and interesting experience. If you or D00D64 see things differently, however, I'd be interested to hear your explanation.
 
I can still see it being included in the pack, as maybe a mini-boss. The way it is now, it takes a very long time to defeat and is just an annoying test of patience. If you re-sprite it so it's not Egg Mobile, and make the missiles and turret shots actual steam-punk things like bullets and cannonballs, then I can see it being a mid-boss for Steam Engine, as a little diversion to keep things fresh.
 
Once again, I can't re-sprite it myself, since I pretty much can't sprite at all. That's why I requested help in my original post. Also, you didn't really have any way to learn about this, but Whackjood and I already discussed the matter of the projectile appearances. He stated that the energy orbs the boss originally fired should be replaced with missiles, which they were, but he had no objection to the turretfire, which is really just a constant stream of bullets if you think about it. Now, I agree with you that it could function as a three-hit miniboss or something if it was re-sprited in the correct way, but I still think it would work better as a boss because of its complex attack pattern and strategy. The steampunk Metal Sonic seems more like miniboss material to me, honestly, as it isn't piloted by Eggman and isn't even the real Metal Sonic, just a steam-powered copy. As a matter of fact, it seems more like it would be a mass-produced two-hit enemy than anything else IMO.
 
But the thing is, this isn't ABOUT Whackjood. this is a collaborative effort, and I think the collective agrees that this boss is no more than just Egg Mobile again. Even with sprite modifications and making energy balls missiles, it still isn't very good. And besides, Whackjood said, and I quote; "If you have a better idea for the boss, Badz. Go for it. The SEZ boss isn't excellent to be honest." I think we can come up with something much better. Right now, this boss isn't even very good as a placeholder. It'd be best to have nothing instead of... Egg Mobile. Again.
 
But the thing is, this isn't ABOUT Whackjood. this is a collaborative effort, and I think the collective agrees that this boss is no more than just Egg Mobile again. Even with sprite modifications and making energy balls missiles, it still isn't very good. And besides, Whackjood said, and I quote; "If you have a better idea for the boss, Badz. Go for it. The SEZ boss isn't excellent to be honest." I think we can come up with something much better. Right now, this boss isn't even very good as a placeholder. It'd be best to have nothing instead of... Egg Mobile. Again.

D00D, you are not the "collective" by any stretch of the imagination. You are the only one who believes that my boss should not be included at all. Even Kirblord23 wants it as a miniboss. Honestly, you seriously need to rethink your definition of "the Egg Mobile again". By your standards, even Donkey Kracken is the freaking Egg Mobile because he roams around the arena and shoots stuff at the player. You may need to do something completely different in order to actually damage him, but that didn't stop you from complaining about my boss! And even if Whackjood did say that, he was clearly talking about its earlier incarnation, before all of those updates were made, since the newer version was justposted a couple hours ago, and I'm pretty sure Whackjood hasn't been active between now and then.
 
Ok, this fight has really got to stop. You're being really stubborn about this 742mph.
You can't deny it's just an eggmobile that is very annoying to defeat. It's basically an eggmobile with different ways to shoot you. At most this should just be a badnik design that would take one hit to destroy.
Oh yeah, COMPLEX ATTACK PATTERN? It's shooting stuff at you, not that complex.

,he was clearly talking about its earlier incarnation,
Nope, that was just a while ago.
 
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EvilEnternity3000, that song you just made back in Submissions could sound like Cloudy Tower Zone 2's theme.

EDIT: Oh, I want to say something about Monster's Haunted House MIDIs

Act 1 sounds like your average Sonic-y haunted house theme, not sounding to creepy but still sounding like one of those Halloween Cartoon Specials.

Act 2, however, sounds like your playing a Sonic Game then all of a sudden you see a creepy cutscene were a character gets their head chopped off then the moon crashes to the Earth then the piano starts trying to bite you then a giant Eel with poorly textured teeth comes out of an underwater hole. Tone down the creepiness a little.
 
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Honestly, you seriously need to rethink your definition of "the Egg Mobile again". By your standards, even Donkey Kracken is the freaking Egg Mobile because he roams around the arena and shoots stuff at the player. You may need to do something completely different in order to actually damage him, but that didn't stop you from complaining about my boss!

Aaaaaand here we go. Was waiting for this part.

Donkey Kracken is an Egg Mobile. No shit. He may be made from scratch, but he's still mostly Egg Mobile. He has only one real difference; he doesn't change his vertical height at all.

But that does NOT mean he doesn't work. The reason for this is because Donkey Kracken was not made to be some normal boss; he was specially crafted for the Homing ability, which is what makes him unique from Egg Mobile. The method to defeating him is entirely different, and works with the character provided in the wad. This coupled with the comedic nature of said fight makes for a far more memorable experience. If you took that away from him, letting him fly vertically, he's not very interesting at all. This one simple change does miles more than just "lol make him shoot X instead hurr durr" like my first Egg Mobile edit from Cloud Cradle.

This Egg Mobile Edit has no such excuse. anyone can look at it and say "yep, that's Egg Mobile all right." It has nothing to set it apart from the other Egg Mobile fights other than ammo type. Using Egg Mobile is the equivelent of just using 1.09 enemies; dated, overdone, and pretty much everybody is sick of it.

And just what does me making an Egg Mobile have to do with me not being allowed to say stuff about yours? I made shit levels before and still complained about other shit levels. A lot of people who made shit are aware they made shit and still call out on other people's shit. And whether I never SOCced a day in my life or somehow managed to SOC a replica of Seven Force means nothing in how much I can say about your SOC. Anyone can easily see that it's just Egg Mobile. Again.
 
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