Should Super Forms be in Single Player/Coop?

[PrismaticAngel]

Ok, so what IF Super Forms were to be reintroduced, would it even MATTER? Adding characters counts as modifying the game, so they can't cheat through the game.

 

[a guy]

By "old games" is more based off Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Where Sonic had the super form and Tails didn't.
Also, it's called "'Sonic' Robo Blast 2" for a reason.

no its becus its the squeal to sonic robo blast one

 

[tailsmastermind]

Notice the ' ' around Sonic. I do see your point though.

 

[GigaX]

I'm agreeing with Super Mystic Sonic here, it's just dumb to not let every character go super in Co-op. I see what you're saying about how you're developing the game, Mystic, but is it really that hard to just please your fans by allowing wads (or even Tails and Knuckles) to go super in co-op? The people who are saying "it should be more balanced" need to figure out why people play Co-op. (Subtle hint: It's to have fun getting through the levels with your friends. Having super forms is much more fun than not having them, and that's why everyone had them.) People who want challenges can challenge themselves, like my friend does straining himself to beat NAGZ with Sonic.

If we're complaining about super forms, we should complain about Match and CTF. Going super and grabbing a ring shield, especially with a doublejump or SSFloat character wad, is the most cheap thing you could possibly do, especially when they decide to just go around running into people. I've pretty much stopped playing match because of super forms, aside from checking out the super graphics, which I can't do in Co-op (and it would also feel much more rewarding in Co-op since I like going around and actually completing the special stages) because of "oh sonic needs to be more special because nobody plays as him anymore".

In my opinion, if you want people to play as Sonic, build the stages around playing as Sonic. As an example, he had a double jump in Sonic R. Double jump is a very awesome and useful ability to have in a game like this, so why not? Thoks just make people either hate or abuse Sonic in races.

In short, good reasons why Super should be allowed for every character in Co-op, then going off on a tangent. If you have anything to contradict me with, go ahead.

 

[tailsmastermind]

If anything, match and CTF is where super forms are NOT broken. (excluding servers with respawn time at 1 and always using startrings) Let's look at it this way: You have to get all 7 emeralds. In a good size match, that can be quite difficult. Not only that, but you have to be able to cling onto 50 rings right before transformation and in a game type where you pretty much have to keep shooting, it's quite hard. Let's say for argument purposes that a player gets super. More than likely, if in match, the game will be almost over, as I have found myself in multiple times. In CTF going super doesn't allow you to pick up the flag thus hindering you in a way. Also, auto/scatter rings tend to kill super transformations and all it takes is one quick pop of a recycler and and said super player loses all their emeralds and items. So really, if anything, it's more broken in co-op with its quick trap busting abilities than in match in which you have to struggle to stay alive. (If you happen to catch someone going into super nearby, shower them with auto rings. Takes them out in a second.)

 

[GigaX]

You give valid points, Tailsmastermind, but the points are only valid for games on the master server, pretty much. When you're playing with your friends, and there's only about 5 people in the match, it's way too easy to just run around and pick up the emeralds, then camp for a ring shield and do what I said above. I always found auto rings to be cheap, and they're definitely cheap when you've just grabbed all seven emeralds and turned super five minutes into the match, then twelve seconds after you're auto ringed out of it.

Then again, there's always a viewpoint in which something is cheap, and a viewpoint in which the same thing is not cheap, and the argument is not about Match or CTF, so let's get back on topic.

 

[tailsmastermind]

The argument was about the super forms in co-op and you brought up your idea about them being cheep. Then you said turning super and getting auto ringed out of super is cheep? The difficulty of getting and sustaining super forms in match/ctf is what makes them fair to put in.
In co-op super forms are cheep. There might be fun in destroying a stage with a powered up version of a character, but what satisfaction does it leave you? Back when we had super forms to me they were nothing more than a nuisance. If I had to pick one extreme I'd go over with DOOD and say no super forms at all, but I like how things are now.

 

[Mystic]

is it really that hard to just please your fans by allowing wads (or even Tails and Knuckles) to go super in co-op?

I'd like to take this statement out of your post to explain how horrible this train of logic is. Fans don't really know exactly what they want, and many of them want contradictory things. I'll take a few examples of things a large, vocal portion of our fanbase desperately wants:

1. Homing attack and light speed dash as Sonic, always.
2. Shadow the Hedgehog as a default playable character.
3. Savestates.
4. More linear stages.
5. Super/Hyper forms for everybody.

I'd personally say that all of these things would make a WORSE game by their addition. If we listened to our fanbase we'd have a game with features for everybody that's fun for nobody. Just look at the official SEGA Sonic games for a perfect example of this. By trying to appeal to everybody, they're making games that appeal to almost nobody.

We don't listen to our fanbase's cries all the time because frequently listening would create a worse game. Personally I feel that by adding super forms for Tails and Knuckles in single player, we would be creating a worse overall experience.

If we're complaining about super forms, we should complain about Match and CTF. Going super and grabbing a ring shield, especially with a doublejump or SSFloat character wad, is the most cheap thing you could possibly do, especially when they decide to just go around running into people.

This to me looks like a major skill gap. When someone grabs a shield as a Super form in match, that shield is the first thing to be removed when they get hit. For instance, if a player has a Force Shield as Super, and someone hits them three times, they'll lose the first half of the shield, then the second half of the shield, and then 10 rings. Hence, all you need to do to disrupt a Super player with an Attraction Shield is strike them just once.

Also, as a reminder, as a player in the game, it's partially your responsibility for LETTING a player go Super in the first place. Their reward for getting all the emeralds is to kick your ass. This isn't to say there aren't a few good counters to attempt to stop him. A good Scatter to the face drains 50 rings, each fire from the Elemental Shield is 10 rings lost, and unloading Automatic into the player can frequently remove them from Super entirely. Also, if the game is has a very long time limit, after every 5 minutes the player is Super, the amount of rings they lose per hit doubles. There is also the end of the round potentially to kill his Super streak, so if the round is nearly over, just ignore the guy who went Super and go for the rest of the players to hit the pointlimit before the Super player does.

There are a massive amount of ways around Super characters in match, we tested the game to death to make sure of it. If anything Super characters in match are a bit underpowered in some levels. Desolate Twilight comes to mind.

In my opinion, if you want people to play as Sonic, build the stages around playing as Sonic. As an example, he had a double jump in Sonic R. Double jump is a very awesome and useful ability to have in a game like this, so why not? Thoks just make people either hate or abuse Sonic in races.

The double jump Sonic had in Sonic R would be pretty useless in SRB2 single player. If you don't believe me, it's a usable custom ability in SRB2 currently, copy-paste sonic.plr as a custom character and give him the ability to see for yourself. In match/ctf it's pretty good, but otherwise it's a rather bad ability.

In short, good reasons why Super should be allowed for every character in Co-op, then going off on a tangent. If you have anything to contradict me with, go ahead.

Character balance is aimed for three modes: Single Player, Match, and CTF. Coop uses the single player balance. The single player balance is as follows:

Sonic: Thok for speed, but not very versatile. Super Sonic adds versatility in exchange for the hassle of obtaining the emeralds. The thok and Super make up for Sonic's lack of other abilities.
Tails: Easy as hell to control, in exchange for speed. The flight mechanics allow Tails to get basically anywhere he wants, and the spinfly trick allows for fast movement at the cost of control.
Knuckles: Even more versatile than Tails, in exchange for some control ease. Also, Knuckles is forced onto his own paths occasionally, like S3K, to make things more interesting and to provide some variety from Tails.

I don't see how this balance is changed by having multiple players in the game. I suspect the main problem is that you guys are cheating and using setrings or something, because in ordinary play, only 2-3 players could possibly get enough rings to go Super. Without cheating, Tails and Knuckles still have major advantages over Super Sonic in mobility, and don't require you to keep collecting rings to keep it up.

 

[FuriousFox]

I'm agreeing with Super Mystic Sonic here, it's just dumb to not let every character go super in Co-op. I see what you're saying about how you're developing the game, Mystic, but is it really that hard to just please your fans by allowing wads (or even Tails and Knuckles) to go super in co-op? The people who are saying "it should be more balanced" need to figure out why people play Co-op. (Subtle hint: It's to have fun getting through the levels with your friends. Having super forms is much more fun than not having them, and that's why everyone had them.) People who want challenges can challenge themselves, like my friend does straining himself to beat NAGZ with Sonic.

The problem is that Co-op isn't MEANT to be played like that. Co-op is just supposed to be 2-4 players helping each other through the levels to go stop Eggman, not 10+ Super Sonics thokking their way through the level as fast as possible, as if they were playing Race. We're not going to stop you from doing that, since we've got more important things to worry about, but we're not going to do more to encourage that sort of gameplay.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the ability to use match super forms in SINGLEPLAYER, not coop, should be an unlockable cheat. And just like any other cheat, it would modify the game. I'm of this opinion mainly because, though it would be detrimental to the main game to always be able to go super as knuckles and tails, it would be fun to mess around with them for a little bit when there isn't actually anything to gain.

 

[MetalKirby]

"oh sonic needs to be more special because nobody plays as him anymore".

Sonic is less special because everyone plays as him, not the other way around. I wouldn't be making such a big deal about this if everyone was more accepting of two other people (besides Eggman) that HELPED Sonic get popular. You know who.

1. Homing attack and light speed dash as Sonic, always.
2. Shadow the Hedgehog as a default playable character.
3. Savestates.
4. More linear stages.
5. Super/Hyper forms for everybody.

We don't listen to our fanbase's cries all the time because frequently listening would create a worse game. Personally I feel that by adding super forms for Tails and Knuckles in single player, we would be creating a worse overall experience.

I agree in all except 4 and 5. While the levels don't have to be too linear, there are instances where the levels should not be too non-linear (Mystic Realm comes to mind). You don't want players to get too bored with the levels, but you don't want to get them too lost either, or they will get discouraged. I had this happen with Mystic Realm, yet not in most other wads.

And you have seen already that I disagree with point 5. I should repeat myself again, Super Sonic has been used to the point where he isn't special anymore. Discussions like these by "fans" have made me dislike Sonic more now, since he gets too much attention being the main character. Super Tails and Super Knuckles need to come back, period, if not in SRB2. At least it was some relief to see others use the emeralds (Shadow doesn't count, as he is basically a clone of Sonic). SRB2 2.0 has allowed the characters to become super in Match/CTF, and it seems to work pretty well. Why not have it in Co-Op, too, since mostly everyone would have COMPLETED Single Player by now. This is where the line is drawn. Single player should be left alone, but not Co-Op.

If you're allowing only Sonic to be super, then tell me this, why should Tails and Knuckles bother to help Sonic out, if it will not benefit them AT ALL? You're basically encouraging everyone to play as Sonic. And if that's the case, why were Tails and Knuckles added in the game anyway if mostly all of the attention is given to Sonic? It doesn't make sense to me, at all. So therefore, I shall change my views on this. Either allow all characters super, or no one becomes super. Super Sonic is nothing to be impressed about, and I know for a fact I will not be playing as him again. In my opinion, even Super Sonic needs his abilities increased (a better hover comes to mind). At least Super Sonic in the games can FLY. So it turns out you guys nerfed him as well...why do I even bother trying to defend my points now...

The double jump Sonic had in Sonic R would be pretty useless in SRB2 single player. If you don't believe me, it's a usable custom ability in SRB2 currently, copy-paste sonic.plr as a custom character and give him the ability to see for yourself. In match/ctf it's pretty good, but otherwise it's a rather bad ability.

I have indeed tried double jump on a wad that acts like a Crawla. I see it just the opposite, bad in Match/CTF, good in Co-Op, because it allows more EXPLORATION. In fast matches, though, it helps even less than Tails's flying, which is pretty bad otherwise.

Character balance is aimed for three modes: Single Player, Match, and CTF.

Well, you guys nailed the Single Player balance, but that's it. The rest are Sonic > Knuckles >>> Tails almost every time. And don't even get me started on Race. It's because of Sonic I don't play it anymore.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the ability to use match super forms in SINGLEPLAYER, not coop, should be an unlockable cheat. And just like any other cheat, it would modify the game. I'm of this opinion mainly because, though it would be detrimental to the main game to always be able to go super as knuckles and tails, it would be fun to mess around with them for a little bit when there isn't actually anything to gain.

Hmm, perhaps make the requirement be complete the game with all emeralds as Sonic? It would fit...


Seriously, I don't even know why I'm still discussing this, as apparently it is getting futile now...and it is because of this that my feelings toward Sonic are becoming more and more evident:

I really would like for this discussion to end, as I can plainly see now you guys are following the same path as Sega, glory to Sonic only, Tails and Knuckles are fillers, like all characters except for Eggman. Back in the Genesis days, fans loved Tails, though not as much for Knuckles, yet both of them seem to just be spectators to Sonic now.

Consider this my last post in this thread. I am through trying to settle this without avoiding becoming a critic completely. I still can't believe we are fighting over this...guess you guys have a point on why fans may be ruining Sonic unintentionally...I have lost almost all respect for Sonic now. Looks like Knuckles is my second favorite character after all.

 

[VectorC]

I suggest to do a demo version(a trial) to see if it would be good.Then If player like this, you can add this feature to the srb2 2.0 Or 2.1...Nevermind.

So...But be sure that the wad you are using HAVE a super form...it would be boring if not...I see vector in super form...HE IS CRAZY! Dude, with this guy in super form I can complete game as fast as a sonic character! This is why i want only charactyer that CAN use super would be able to use it. Like shadow or metal sonic or SMS or etc.

I understand myself.So i like the idea of a trial. It Would be fun.

 

[FuriousFox]

If you're allowing only Sonic to be super, then tell me this, why should Tails and Knuckles bother to help Sonic out, if it will not benefit them AT ALL? You're basically encouraging everyone to play as Sonic. And if that's the case, why were Tails and Knuckles added in the game anyway if mostly all of the attention is given to Sonic? It doesn't make sense to me, at all. So therefore, I shall change my views on this. Either allow all characters super, or no one becomes super. Super Sonic is nothing to be impressed about, and I know for a fact I will not be playing as him again. In my opinion, even Super Sonic needs his abilities increased (a better hover comes to mind). At least Super Sonic in the games can FLY. So it turns out you guys nerfed him as well...why do I even bother trying to defend my points now...

I have indeed tried double jump on a wad that acts like a Crawla. I see it just the opposite, bad in Match/CTF, good in Co-Op, because it allows more EXPLORATION. In fast matches, though, it helps even less than Tails's flying, which is pretty bad otherwise.

Well, you guys nailed the Single Player balance, but that's it. The rest are Sonic > Knuckles >>> Tails almost every time. And don't even get me started on Race. It's because of Sonic I don't play it anymore.

Please don't take this personally, but I think that the main problem is that you just don't know how to play as Tails and Knux. As a Tails player myself, I can pretty safely say that Tails' flying is FAR from being useless. Heck, it's his main advantage. While Sonic players are forced to rely on springs and jumping to get around, Tails can simply fly to wherever he wants to get to. Ever noticed how easy it is to snipe a Sonic player after he uses a spring? Tails doesn't have to worry about that; he can easily move around while flying to avoid getting hit.

Knux is also powerful in his own ways. For one, he can fire rings twice as fast as the other characters. His glide and climb are also pretty useful for getting around, though probably not as much as Tails' flying.

Tails and Knuckles don't have super forms because they don't NEED super forms. Sonic has the Thok: it gives him a speed boost, but doesn't really make it easier for him to get through the levels. If he wants to go up, he has to rely on jumping and springs while Tails and Knux can simply use their abilities. As Mystic said earlier, if you play the game without cheating, you'll realize that Tails and Knux have HUGE advantages over Sonic; they can skip whole sections of levels that Sonic is forced to go through.

 

[Bobinator]

Honestly, I'd say since SRB2's meant to be based on the old games, I'd stick them in. They were overpowered in S3&K, too. Or, if it's not too much trouble, make Super forms toggle on/off for multiplayer, everyone wins.

 

[MascaraSnake]

They were overpowered in S3&K, too.

But that doesn't mean SRB2 has to do it. If they were bad in the first place, why add them in? It's like removing the thok just becuase the old games didn't have it.

 

[Kiddytails]

I just say, OPTIONAL STUFF RULES. If the developers are so determinded on NOT having them, and the fans are determinded ON having them, just make an option to allow everybody go super, or not. It's not too hard to please many people without making the other half go moaning about it. SRB2 2.0 already feels limited with the Character and Wad limitations as it is, so make atleast THAT optional. (I just think the wad making is no-fun and ridiculious now, but that's offtopic.) People can actually choose then instead of being forced.

 

[GigaX]

That above post has made the most sense out of the whole topic. Why bother arguing over whether or not it should be in when we can make it a server option? The people who want to go super can still go super, and the people who don't want to go super can basically just say "screw you" and toggle it off. Everyone's happy. =D

Then again, there'd still be somewhat of a letdown if it isn't obvious that you can't go super in that server, and you decide to collect all the emeralds just to be super. So the answer to that is to make it clearly obvious, either in console echo or CSay. Then only idiots will go "HURF DURF I'M GONNA GO SUPER N-WAIT WHAT I JUST DID THAT LAST EMERALD STAGE FOR NOTHING?!"

Obviously the option should be locked, and shown, at emerald collection screens. Regular stage clear screens shouldn't lock it.

 

[MetalKirby]

I did say I posted my last post in this topic, but something caught my attention:

Please don't take this personally, but I think that the main problem is that you just don't know how to play as Tails and Knux.

None taken. However, on the other hand, I play as Tails and Knuckles more than Sonic. I told you guys already that you nailed the Single Player mode balance. Aside from super forms, am I complaining about anything else in Co-Op mode? Not as far as I can recall.

As a Tails player myself, I can pretty safely say that Tails' flying is FAR from being useless. Heck, it's his main advantage.

Personally, I see this as his only advantage, unfortunately. When racing, acceleration doesn't even matter, it's the higher top speed that counts in the end. I'm just saying that Tails is underpowered when compared to Sonic, and I'm talking Match here, who was definitely considered from many angles as to what abilities to give him. Knuckles was also given a bit of a make-over. Why not Tails as well? I can see many things wrong with him, namely speed. I recall that Tails is able to keep up with Sonic in the games, and it also appeared to me Sonic had the upper hand on acceleration.

Knux is also powerful in his own ways. For one, he can fire rings twice as fast as the other characters.

Which is why I mentioned to give Tails a small rate increase. Otherwise, aside from his flying, he's just mainly a slow Sonic.

Tails and Knuckles don't have super forms because they don't NEED super forms.

Which is why I said to leave Single Player alone, aside from Prime 2.0's suggestion. It's just a bonus feature, really, like Super Tails and Super/Hyper Knuckles in S3&K. I'm trying to make Co-Op a little more fun, and give Tails and Knuckles players REASONS to get the emeralds, aside from helping Sonic players out. An option to turn super forms on or off would be perfect, because the host decides if to allow super forms or not. I really don't see why you guys aren't giving this idea much thought, because for one, it'll stop this entire discussion, which is hopefully not turning into an argument...I had no intentions of doing that.

With that said, let's look back at 1.90.4, where you guys tried the idea for wads. I do admit we got some overpowered wads, but it wasn't because wads could turn super. In my opinion, ringslinger was the problem with the overpowered wads here, not super forms. I hated certain projectiles some wads had. Two that come to mind are Super Mystic Sonic and Sonic Overdrive. I now HATE the fact SMS was brought back to 2.0.

Why did I come to hate SMS so much? Two SMS players in CTF, on the opposite team I was on, and they fired at me (it was on my favorite CTF stage as well, Metal Star).

I guess Miles Prower was a tad cheap as well with his powerful flying, but my own wad is only slightly weaker than him in 1.90.4, and I still see my friends use my wad, even though they don't play as Tails much.

Sonic has the Thok: it gives him a speed boost, but doesn't really make it easier for him to get through the levels.

He's already fast enough without the Thok to beat both Tails and Knuckles, rather easily I might add. The Double Jump, on the other hand, allows him to go up the cliffs and avoid possibly dangerous areas. I can only think of one situation in Co-Op where the Thok is more useful than the Double Jump, and that is transferring between rails in Arid Canyon.

As Mystic said earlier, if you play the game without cheating, you'll realize that Tails and Knux have HUGE advantages over Sonic; they can skip whole sections of levels that Sonic is forced to go through.

You guys told me this so many times. I do not care about that now. No, I only wanted Tails and Knuckles to be able to turn super so Co-Op, if only briefly, would get some new life and convince Tails and Knuckles players to go after the emeralds if allowing Sonic to turn super wasn't enough. It will not make other players switch to Tails or Knuckles if they are satisfied enough with Super Sonic. Think of this as more of a reward for finishing SP as Super Sonic. Super Tails and Super Knuckles do not have HOVER, which can be a big help if a player needs to fly low. In my opinion, Super Sonic needs a better hover, and I can see him being extremely useful with it.

It's a bonus feature, not even Super Sonic is required to beat the game. Super Sonic is a bonus feature. Why not give that to others as well?


I apologize if this discussion is starting to become a bother to the staff, as I really was the one that brought new life into it. I admit sometimes even I was a bit of a critic. I'm just trying to give more reasons to play as Tails and Knuckles, that's really it. Obviously true skill is measured best in how well Sonic is played, since he is the most difficult character, which is why I think he should be even more special in Single Player than Tails and Knuckles, though not to the extreme in that he gets his own stage. The only complaint I have against Sonic is the Thok. Otherwise, I feel the characters are a bit balanced.

 

[Mystic]

Oh man, you guys just posted some MASSIVE posts here with no actual new content. To clean this up, lemme reiterate the first 7 pages of this topic again in much less words:

Several players here have stated they dislike how Tails and Knuckles cannot go super in Single Player and/or Cooperative mode. We've stated the reason they can't as Super being Sonic's power only for gameplay balance reasons. Several useless ideas and one good idea was put forth on how to resolve this.

The good idea, and I'll repeat it again for everyone's reminder, is to make a Pandora's Box option to allow all characters to go Super in Single Player/Cooperative mode. What this means, as a reminder, is that in single player, you could activate a cheat if you've unlocked Pandora's Box to goof off with it in single player. If the hosts has cheats enabled and has unlocked Pandora's Box on his saved data, he could enable the variable to goof off with it in Coop.

This idea SEEMS to resolve MOST complaints here that are worth addressing, mainly the ones saying that it would be fun to mess around with super forms outside of match; however, it does keep this as a clear cheat code, and clearly flags your server as a game not to be taken seriously.

We ARE considering such an option. Here are some of the things we are NOT considering:

1. Super forms in Coop as a non-cheat option. Sonic is the only character that goes Super in SRB2.
2. Separate rules for Single Player and Cooperative mode. Coop is Single Player with multiple people and it does not have different rules.
3. Pink Super Knuckles. (I know this is the next argument. I can just feel it)

I don't mind discussing topics like this, but please, for all of our sanity, make sure your post hasn't been said before. This entire topic has a massive amount of redundancy because everyone's just saying the same things over and over again.

 

[Chromatian]

Well, you guys nailed the Single Player balance, but that's it. The rest are Sonic > Knuckles >>> Tails almost every time. And don't even get me started on Race. It's because of Sonic I don't play it anymore.

Before you go making the assumtion that Sonic dominates in match/CTF, learn how to play as every character effectively and see if that continues to hold true. I can tell you right now that it doesn't, at all. It all depends on which level your playing, as each character has advantages and disadvantages.

As for race, that gametype has been pretty broken for a while now, it's really the level design that needs to be changed to fix things.