Pyrakid Wolfo
Member
I've been playing alot of Version 2.0.7 lately and I also played Final Demo a lot too. Anyway for a starter question, why is the goop in Techno Legacy green, it was purple in Version 2.0.7.
Legacy Stages Discussion
- Thread starter Pyrakid Wolfo
- Start date
lnferno
Blazing Creator
Because Mystic wanted consistency with how colors of liquids implied liquid behavior. Green acid = hurtwater. Purple liquid by 2.2 had come to mean buoyant goop.
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
I don't think legacy levels are worth having as unlockables in SRB2. All the game's levels were changed over the years for good reason, like to fix up confusing sections or fill empty space with interesting content, if not remade from scratch. There simply isn't a good reason to include those old versions of levels as unlockables, except in the case of Forest Fortress since that level was never seen before and is interesting to play in its own right.
My feeling on including legacy unlockables goes for both Techno Legacy and Final Demo Zone, the latter of which some people think should've been put in instead of Techno Legacy. Neither of the levels hold up at all by 2.2 standards, with archaic design, confusing layouts, and misleading visuals that if adjusted (like the slime color was) arguably ruins the nostalgia factor. THZ2 is probably the most interesting part of the Final Demo main campaign, both in itself and in comparison to the 2.2 levels, but it still isn't very interesting. That said, I do strongly agree with Mystic's stance that liquids should always be consistently colored; that's pretty much the only opinion of his that I agree with.
Note that these sentiments are coming from someone who didn't play SRB2 until 2.2 came out and thus doesn't get feelings of nostalgia from experiencing old content. I think it's important to make the game friendly and accessible to newcomers, and not let nostalgia factor get in the way of accessibility.
My feeling on including legacy unlockables goes for both Techno Legacy and Final Demo Zone, the latter of which some people think should've been put in instead of Techno Legacy. Neither of the levels hold up at all by 2.2 standards, with archaic design, confusing layouts, and misleading visuals that if adjusted (like the slime color was) arguably ruins the nostalgia factor. THZ2 is probably the most interesting part of the Final Demo main campaign, both in itself and in comparison to the 2.2 levels, but it still isn't very interesting. That said, I do strongly agree with Mystic's stance that liquids should always be consistently colored; that's pretty much the only opinion of his that I agree with.
Note that these sentiments are coming from someone who didn't play SRB2 until 2.2 came out and thus doesn't get feelings of nostalgia from experiencing old content. I think it's important to make the game friendly and accessible to newcomers, and not let nostalgia factor get in the way of accessibility.
Pyrakid Wolfo
Member
I don't see why Techno Legacy is special, Deep Sea Legacy is far more interesting in design. Though both are very much changed from their 2.2 counterparts, I just don't see why Techno Legacy would get in over any other legacy stage.
Even if the legacy stages don't get added in any future release of srb2, even as an unlockable, it would be nice to maybe have mods that added those stages back, as I do really like Sonic Robo Blast 2 Version 2.0.7's level design.
Or just 2.0.7. I dunno but I honestly really have been enjoying 2.0 since ive started playing it, my first version was 2.1.19 i think, but i didnt play past greenflower I think.
Ive played 2.2 a ton, but the game is just so different. I wouldn't call 2.2 an improvement over 2.0, I'd maybe call it a better game like how you'd call Unleashed better than 06 but both of the games are very different games. What you do when you play the levels is so different from what you do when you play 2.2's levels, I find myself exploring the levels so much that I just take longer to beat them and end up not speedrunning the game, and the special stages are extremely easy, but its hard to change the NiGHTS special stages because nobody likes them and nobody can get into the NiGHTS special stages. Well to that I say CHAOS EMERALDS ARE OPTIONAL, AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. Look at Sonic 1 and Sonic 2's special stages, and then Sonic 3's and then &K's special stages. You're supposed to have an incentive to get better at them. And of course I'm not asking for Black Hole difficulty. Screw that lol,
Even though I didn't grow up with the old srb2, I have this appreciation and big fondness of the old things, like the old srb2 sprites and everything. I really like it, I even got really used to the old controls and stuff.
Even if the legacy stages don't get added in any future release of srb2, even as an unlockable, it would be nice to maybe have mods that added those stages back, as I do really like Sonic Robo Blast 2 Version 2.0.7's level design.
Or just 2.0.7. I dunno but I honestly really have been enjoying 2.0 since ive started playing it, my first version was 2.1.19 i think, but i didnt play past greenflower I think.
Ive played 2.2 a ton, but the game is just so different. I wouldn't call 2.2 an improvement over 2.0, I'd maybe call it a better game like how you'd call Unleashed better than 06 but both of the games are very different games. What you do when you play the levels is so different from what you do when you play 2.2's levels, I find myself exploring the levels so much that I just take longer to beat them and end up not speedrunning the game, and the special stages are extremely easy, but its hard to change the NiGHTS special stages because nobody likes them and nobody can get into the NiGHTS special stages. Well to that I say CHAOS EMERALDS ARE OPTIONAL, AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. Look at Sonic 1 and Sonic 2's special stages, and then Sonic 3's and then &K's special stages. You're supposed to have an incentive to get better at them. And of course I'm not asking for Black Hole difficulty. Screw that lol,
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Even though I didn't grow up with the old srb2, I have this appreciation and big fondness of the old things, like the old srb2 sprites and everything. I really like it, I even got really used to the old controls and stuff.
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Icarus
Phantasy Savior
I've already said that before but Technoi Legacy is an underwhelming final unlock and it failed at being nostalgic by changing the acid color.
I'd rather see the entire 1.09.4/2.0 era levels as its own wad (like how SRB1 remake in the 2.1 got removed for the 2.2) or just something like the Final Demo Zone wad as the entire level.
Maybe if you want to show how much the game has evolved they could put the first maps of the Halloween and Xmas SRB2 to show how far the game has come from.
I'd still love if Emerald Coast from SRB2 Xmas got remade
I'd rather see the entire 1.09.4/2.0 era levels as its own wad (like how SRB1 remake in the 2.1 got removed for the 2.2) or just something like the Final Demo Zone wad as the entire level.
Maybe if you want to show how much the game has evolved they could put the first maps of the Halloween and Xmas SRB2 to show how far the game has come from.
I'd still love if Emerald Coast from SRB2 Xmas got remade
Pyrakid Wolfo
Member
I think the srb2 remake and christmas and mario koopa zone even might have been able to stay, as its just more content, could be in its own "srb2 past" section, but srb2 the past mod being ported or something works too i think
I enjoyed srb2 xmas and final demo
I enjoyed srb2 xmas and final demo
Goldenhog
Wandering Protagonist
Legacy content by itself isn't really worth bringing back, I agree.
I do think Final Demo Zone has some merit though. It's a testament to how much the engine progressed, its gimmick of "a whole campaign in a small package" is unique, and even if you don't get the nostalgia kick out of it, it's a decent enough level on its own IMO. And hey, "late unlock but not blow-your-mind kinda level" does fit in with STJr's stated philosophy when it comes to postgame content. (to paraphrase, they don't want the bestest of the bestest unlockables to be trapped behind a possibly-unreasonable amount of effort. see: Sonic Adventure 2. GHZ sure is a fine level, but you're not playing it unless you bite down the pillow and do all the Chao junk)
I do think Final Demo Zone has some merit though. It's a testament to how much the engine progressed, its gimmick of "a whole campaign in a small package" is unique, and even if you don't get the nostalgia kick out of it, it's a decent enough level on its own IMO. And hey, "late unlock but not blow-your-mind kinda level" does fit in with STJr's stated philosophy when it comes to postgame content. (to paraphrase, they don't want the bestest of the bestest unlockables to be trapped behind a possibly-unreasonable amount of effort. see: Sonic Adventure 2. GHZ sure is a fine level, but you're not playing it unless you bite down the pillow and do all the Chao junk)
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I can think of two potential ways legacy content could be included in ways that don't come off as underwhelming unlockables. The first would be to simply have it unlocked from the start, and the second would be for it to be included on the downloads page and here on the MB as an "Official Addon". In either case, the player doesn't have to do anything special to gain access to it.
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
I would kinda disagree about one thing: how would they incite people from getting more emblems if the late unlocks are underwhelming? Wouldn't this be unfair toward people who want to 100% the game?
And let's be honest, the side emblems you get from the game are always related to the main game (like time attack for example), nothing jarring like SA2's chao raising or the A-rank emblem that you get only by getting the upgrades.
No rigorous studies have been undertaken on this, but the NiGHTS unlockables definitely have this effect on people.
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
That is exactly how I feel about all the unlockable NiGHTS levels save for Black Hole; they're far enough removed from the main game that I never felt too enthusiastic playing them and getting the emblems in them. Alpine Paradise 2 is probably the single level that gives me this effect the most because it's so, well, weird.
Black Hole Zone is awesome though, I won't let anyone shit on it.
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time gear
Eternity in an hour
In regards to unlockable levels, the main campaign generally focuses on "get to the goal sign" level design. As such, I feel that unlockable single player stages are an opportunity to include alternative types of levels that wouldn't fit into the main campaign. Button Hunts, Emerald Hunts, more in-depth puzzle solving (think Portal progression as opposed to traditional Sonic progression), specialized platforming challenges (Gimmick levels such as making use of a certain shield, bouncing on lots of springs, etc.), AI races reminiscent of the Metal Sonic race, etc. Types of gameplay that are different enough to be neat, but not mind blowing enough to make people feel like they are missing out not having them unlocked.
Scrapped levels and bosses that are complete enough to be considered presentable but aren't from a previous public release and didn't make it into the main campaign could also be appropriate version specific unlocks, tied behind partial completion of the campaign or a small amount of emblems so as to be easily obtainable but still not available right off the bat.
In regards to levels such as Haunted Heights, I feel that those are appropriate unlocks despite sharing the same "get to the goal sign" level design as the main campaign simply because they are level tropes that do not appear in the main campaign. These could be considered neat little one-off adventures canon (or occasionally non-canon such as Mario Mode) to SRB2 but separate from the main campaign.
Scrapped levels and bosses that are complete enough to be considered presentable but aren't from a previous public release and didn't make it into the main campaign could also be appropriate version specific unlocks, tied behind partial completion of the campaign or a small amount of emblems so as to be easily obtainable but still not available right off the bat.
In regards to levels such as Haunted Heights, I feel that those are appropriate unlocks despite sharing the same "get to the goal sign" level design as the main campaign simply because they are level tropes that do not appear in the main campaign. These could be considered neat little one-off adventures canon (or occasionally non-canon such as Mario Mode) to SRB2 but separate from the main campaign.
GentlemanOctopus
Aquatic OC enthusiast
I don't think it helps Techno Legacy's case in that, unlike literally every other unlockable stage, it's the only one in the game without any emblems. You don't really get anything from it. You unlock it after 100 emblems, and it's there, you don't even need to play the level to 100% the game. Not really worth the 100 emblems to unlock it.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Although I agree that it's not the best unlockable, I'd count this as a point in it's defense. By not having to play it, you never need to bother with it. If you don't like it, you can just skip it. Perhaps it would be less annoying if it had a lower emblem requirement to unlock it, but otherwise it's fairly harmless in this regard. It would be far worse for a bad/uninteresting unlockable that's actually required for full completion in my opinion.
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
The Nights stages are probably the best special stages in the entire franchise (yes, even better than the Saturn 3D Blast or Colors DS ones).
I haven't tried Black Hole Zone yet but it looks hard as hell, truly the ultimate challenge of the game with Ultimate mode.
Sonic isn't like Portal. Having different post-game stages wouldn't be bad on paper but it would be for those who wants to 100% the game but prefers the regular gameplay and normal stage progression.
Goldenhog
Wandering Protagonist
That's the beauty of it. They don't! The idea is that, if you like collecting emblems, you'll continue to do it without needing a carrot on a stick dangling in front of you. And since there's little incentive to go all the way, it also means that people that only like collecting certain emblems don't feel obligated to play the parts of the game they don't like just for the reward. If you don't like doing score runs then you can skip them and make up for it with other emblems you do like to get. This is the reason why the last emblem unlockable, Techno Legacy Zone, sits at a mere 100 emblems out of 200.
It's good that you enjoy these Special Stages, but there are people that don't. Maybe the current design is "unfair" to those who take the time and effort to reach 100% completion, but if there was a super incredible unlockable that people could not experience without being forced to ace NiGHTS, that'd be unfair too.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
As Goldenhog said, It's better if you aren't forced to do everything. Levels using alternative gameplay styles end up being cool bonuses for people who like that kind of thing rather than a mandatory requirement for 100% completion that way. Or as I put it in another post of mine recently in regards to Techno Legacy: