Character Balance Discussion

@742mph

A sound plays and dust begins to form, as well as afterimages when your top speed is fully reached in which you're finally granted a jump height boost. You never go fast if "Dash Mode" activates in the air (as to not fuck you over), but you get the noise anyways. See? Visual and sound indicators for everything; also absolutely nothing about it is abrupt after so many tweaks. Shit you don't even need to waste all that time running if you're in a less open area, once the sound cues in you know the ability is on. What better way to take advantage of this than slap it on the spindash itself when fully charged?



Guys, jumping high when going fast is not complicated; other games do it frequently, why call it Sonic Advance 2 styled when I can literally label it a "P-Meter".


Gosh I'm considering just releasing these abilities separately instead, this is so dumb. I'll speak to Roach about it so this thread can actually go somewhere.

Mystic said:

You're all barking up the wrong tree anyways, because we're not replacing SRB2 Sonic's mechanics with Sonic Advance 2 Sonic anyways. SRB2 Sonic is about the thok. If we really decided to redesign Sonic's mechanics for real in SRB2, I would be going complete redesign territory and emulate Sonic 3 Sonic, with an insta-shield double jump by default that changes based on his shield. We're not doing that.

While I'm not against adjusting Sonic somewhat if it becomes truly necessary, those adjustments are going to be strictly statistics, not radical redesigns.

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FuckingSonic.wad is still largely about the thok, it just doesn't encompass all of his gameplay, and the character is actually better for it. I understand the concern over a mechanical overhaul, but I would still urge you guys to test the mechanics to see if its merits are worth working into an official release.

Alternatively, I'd like to propose just for the thok to work like Fuckingsonic's (never goes below player's current speed), and perhaps increase max speed to 128 if necessary. It's not everything I want for the character, but I think it would at least be a start toward something better.


Anyway...

As an FYI, we are planning to add a projectile speed buff to Tails to mirror Knuckles's firing cooldown buff.

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Out of curiosity, has a small explosion radius on Tails' rings been tested in the past or no? I feel that currently Tails is reliant on the explosion ring due to his midair status, and innate blast radiuses on all of his stuff to could alleviate that. (might need a slight reduction in firing rate to compensate though)

CobaltBW said:

That still isn't what a "skill floor" is, because understanding those inner workings of the boost mechanic is not necessary to play decently with FuckingSonic.

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Yes it is. If a player can't figure out what the mechanics of their character are, it's going to be a barrier to accessibility. If you don't know how to get into boost mode, or how much that jump boost is (which is very much more important knowledge than how much speed increase you get, because it directly affects where you're allowed to go), can you still play as Fuckingsonic? Yes. But you're going to see someone who can play him well, you're not going to understand how they're using him so much better than you are (unless maybe you stare at a feed of their button inputs), and you're going to be frustrated that you don't even understand how the player character works. This kind of thing is incredibly important in a game with online competitive multiplayer gametypes.

Gameplay depth should come from understanding the best ways to use the mechanics you've been given. Not from figuring out what the hell those mechanics are. Let's take Portal (a game I'm pretty certain everyone here's either played or at least seen in action) as an example: you can shoot two portals, and you can go between them. Moving between portals is exactly the same as moving through air. You can pick up and put down objects. There are things that trigger switches. These are incredibly simple and consistent mechanics, and understanding what these are takes five seconds a piece. The gameplay depth comes from figuring out how to use these simple, intuitive mechanics to solve the complex puzzles presented to you. The game has a low skill floor, but if you've ever seen a Portal speedrun (in-bounds, for the sake of keeping the discussion to gameplay mechanics), there's a very high skill ceiling. And while you might not know how they're using those mechanics so well, you know what mechanics they're using. (And before you argue ABH, that's a glitch.)

Iceman404 said:

So, basically a one time experimentation then.

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Keep in mind that the new player doesn't know that Sonic can jump almost, but not quite, two GFZ tiles. And that the difference between that and "just over two GFZ tiles" is not at all easy to grasp in a 3D space. Mechanics like that are easy to demonstrate in a 2D space where a jump of a certain height is a fixed amount of pixels, but in the extra dimension where perspective makes finding a point of reference much harder, it's going to be borderline impossible for a new player to figure these things out. There's a good reason 3D Mario games don't have P meters.

Iceman404 said:

You never go fast if "Dash Mode" activates in the air, but you get the noise anyways.

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That's a bad thing. It confuses the player who's grown accustomed to "this noise means I'm in fast mode", because now the noise is playing but they aren't in fast mode? If it doesn't trigger until you touch the ground, delay playing the noise until they touch the ground, so that they know it's being on the ground after that time that starts fast mode. (This bit isn't a criticism of the boost mode idea but just of the specific implementation detail, before anyone gets onto me for nitpicking.)

RedEnchilada said:

That's a bad thing. It confuses the player who's grown accustomed to "this noise means I'm in fast mode", because now the noise is playing but they aren't in fast mode? If it doesn't trigger until you touch the ground, delay playing the noise until they touch the ground, so that they know it's being on the ground after that time that starts fast mode. (This bit isn't a criticism of the boost mode idea but just of the specific implementation detail, before anyone gets onto me for nitpicking.)

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No, it is a good thing, and your suggestion is a horrible idea. The dust is what indicates speed gain having started, the startup sound is what lets the player know they're now "allowed" to gain speed. If both suddenly happened when you touched the ground after plenty of air time, it would throw off platforming significantly and ruin the whole package because there'd be no warning that it's coming. The rev up sound starting whether you're on the floor or not is just that, a warning.

You say the player has "grown" accustomed to it and yet hint at them still not knowing the general mechanics of it in your next sentences. Stuff like this is discover-able all over the springs around GFZ2. In fact, GFZ2 is the perfect introduction to FuckingSonic since it has all the elements to let any new player test out their abilities. That long hallway-like setup with no danger makes it easy to grasp for any beginner.

Iceman404 said:

The dust is what indicates speed gain having started, the startup sound is what lets the player know they're now "allowed" to gain speed.

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How are you going to communicate this subtle yet important distinction to a first-time player?

Personally, from the sounds of it I would like to see the speed-up mechanic implemented for all of the characters. It sounds like it would be a great translation of speed being a reward from the classic games into a game without slopes at all. Of course, you can't use it everywhere, but you couldn't go fast everywhere in the classic games either.

Not to mention it feels so much more rewarding getting your speed from this source as opposed to thok. Heck getting a lot of speed from glide feels a lot more rewarding because you need to put actual effort and work into it.

742mph said:

How are you going to communicate this subtle yet important distinction to a first-time player?

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A single diagonal spring in which they can hold forward is pretty much all it takes. In fact, if this became an official thing, it would be so easy to address the jump-height "problem" by having the first area of GFZ2 (the excessively lengthy hallway) inescapable unless you get enough speed to jump high enough to the ledge of springs or something (eliminating that eastward run-around entirely).

Sryder13 said:

Personally, from the sounds of it I would like to see the speed-up mechanic implemented for all of the characters. It sounds like it would be a great translation of speed being a reward from the classic games into a game without slopes at all. Of course, you can't use it everywhere, but you couldn't go fast everywhere in the classic games either.

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I would actually approve of the mechanic being a universal thing. It's fun to use, and if Sonic's thok wasn't the fastest method of travel while playing him, he'd be a lot less gimmicky/rely on it less. The benefit of it being universal is that it's an option everyone has too, so the argument of "why is it so specific to Sonic that running for a bit boosts his speed, where double jumps abilities are all consistent" is totally thrown out the window.

RedEnchilada said:

Yes it is. If a player can't figure out what the mechanics of their character are, it's going to be a barrier to accessibility.

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Have you played Team Fortress 2? Do you have any idea how many people are happy to just rush forward with pyro and get one or two kills? They don't understand how the flame mechanics work, they don't even know how to airblast. But the character is still very newbie friendly.

What about Super Smash Bros. Melee? Obviously there's an obscene difference between a skilled player and a newbie, but you know what? You don't need to know how to wavedash in order to have fun with the game. The sales prove it.

If you think that visually indicated conditional changes once the player enters boost mode would turn people off of the character when other games can be newbie friendly and have the freakin' wavedash, we don't have a lot to talk about here.

If you don't know how to get into boost mode, or how much that jump boost is (which is very much more important knowledge than how much speed increase you get, because it directly affects where you're allowed to go), can you still play as Fuckingsonic? Yes. But you're going to see someone who can play him well, you're not going to understand how they're using him so much better than you are (unless maybe you stare at a feed of their button inputs), and you're going to be frustrated that you don't even understand how the player character works. This kind of thing is incredibly important in a game with online competitive multiplayer gametypes.

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Once again, making a big issue out of nothing!

I learned about how high I can jump in boost mode after about ten minutes of passively playing and enjoying the character. You can also learn how fast you go in boost mode by just trying to see how fast you can go in boost mode. This fucking argument of yours is the equivalent of "how long does it take Mario to get to full speed?? how high can he jump normally, how high can he jump at max speed??" This is trivial to any player that understands how platformers work, 3D or 2D.

I can't even go onto critique the rest of your post, because your presumptions on how hard this boost system is and how it can't be made simpler and players are too stupid to understand visual cues.... Like, holy shit.

RedEnchilada said:

Keep in mind that the new player doesn't know that Sonic can jump almost, but not quite, two GFZ tiles. And that the difference between that and "just over two GFZ tiles" is not at all easy to grasp in a 3D space. Mechanics like that are easy to demonstrate in a 2D space where a jump of a certain height is a fixed amount of pixels, but in the extra dimension where perspective makes finding a point of reference much harder, it's going to be borderline impossible for a new player to figure these things out. There's a good reason 3D Mario games don't have P meters.

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Oh come the fuck oooooooooooonnnn already, it is not as complex and difficult to understand as you're exaggerating and estimating it to be.

Oh, this game has the same mechanic! That does the same thing! Too complex for me, no buy.

Iceman404 said:

Oh come the fuck oooooooooooonnnn already, it is not as complex and difficult to understand as you're exaggerating and estimating it to be.

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That (somehow) reminds me: How many relatively new players, if any, has FuckingSonic actually been tested on?

Mystic said:

You're all barking up the wrong tree anyways, because we're not replacing SRB2 Sonic's mechanics with Sonic Advance 2 Sonic anyways. SRB2 Sonic is about the thok. If we really decided to redesign Sonic's mechanics for real in SRB2, I would be going complete redesign territory and emulate Sonic 3 Sonic, with an insta-shield double jump by default that changes based on his shield. We're not doing that.

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Did nobody get this memo? Regardless of the opinion of people in or outside of this thread on FuckingSonic, we're not replacing Sonic's mechanics with them in vanilla.

If you want this thread to actually be productive, I suggest you drop that line of discussion and talk about ideas that actually COULD be considered.

742mph said:

That (somehow) reminds me: How many relatively new players, if any, has FuckingSonic actually been tested on?

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Two of my friends, including myself, have tested it. One of them was completely new to the game, and when I asked him which one he liked he said, and I quote:

Chrome's Friend said:

"I felt that the second one, the one with the boost, was easier to control because the speed wasn't so instant"

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The other one also enjoyed boosting sonic more, but he's played the game for years like me.

New topic: How to make Tails more mobile in the air without making Birdemic 2: Mobius.

ZarroTsu said:

New topic: How to make Tails more mobile in the air without making Birdemic 2: Mobius.

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I already covered this, but basically increase his acceleration across all axes, without necessarily increasing his top speed. He needs to be less vulnerable to bullets during flight, nothing more.

CobaltBW said:

I already covered this, but basically increase his acceleration across all axes, without necessarily increasing his top speed. He needs to be less vulnerable to bullets during flight, nothing more.

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Fixing acceleration would be the first step towards this, faster acceleration for Tails would mean that he has faster changing of direction in the air too. I don't know if he needs a speed boost in the air, but maybe a small one horizontally and just faster acceleration vertically should help.

I'm speaking with deathmatch in mind. I don't think Tails should be punished for flying while around opponents, I think he should be using it to his combat advantage. Being able to juke shots by changing direction faster would be one method to accomplish this.

Thinking about what could improve Tails and Knuckles in Match/CTF has reminded me of a few ideas I've had in the past:

• Tails's fired rings getting a weak homing ability. Not quite enough to follow a player everywhere like a Deton or something, but perhaps enough to slightly deviate from the current course to hit a nearby player.
• Increased weapon ammo maximums for Tails/Knuckles. I'm not sure which would be best in practice, but it would give a reason to want to use the character more no doubt. If you switch back to a character with normal maximums, the count would be autolimited back down to the normal maximum (perhaps extra ammo can be automatically flung out of the player's possession, for others to collect? Assuming the player can't collect it again of course)
• Increased knockback power, for Knuckles perhaps. You know how annoying Rail is guys, you know how crazy that knockback is at least. =V Not sure if this would mesh well with increased firing rate though, then again.

Monster Iestyn said:

Tails's fired rings getting a weak homing ability.

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I like the idea of this one for the unspoken problem of "good god software mode's vertical camera is like that scene from 2010 Space Odyssey". Which kind of hits Tails (and sometimes Knuckles) pretty hard in combat modes when trying to aim downwards.

With that said, I wonder if changes to ring weapons between characters would be beneficial if such changes were based around their abilities. For example, what if the Scatter Ring shot straight downward while flying as Tails? Alternatively, what if there were a shoot-ring button that shot straight downward?

ZarroTsu said:

I like the idea of this one for the unspoken problem of "good god software mode's vertical camera is like that scene from 2010 Space Odyssey". Which kind of hits Tails (and sometimes Knuckles) pretty hard in combat modes when trying to aim downwards.

With that said, I wonder if changes to ring weapons between characters would be beneficial if such changes were based around their abilities. For example, what if the Scatter Ring shot straight downward while flying as Tails? Alternatively, what if there were a shoot-ring button that shot straight downward?

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I think this could be very good idea in a different shape. What if the downwards shooted bomb, grenade and bounce rings were dropped instead of shooting them? The other rings wouldn't work very well because you're almost blind when shooting without watching down there. (Maybe works for climbing Knuckles) This is a cool idea when developed a bit more.

EDIT: If you allow, I'll make a Lua code for this.

I really don't feel like changing the weapon rings is the right thing to do. Because the problem, at least for Tails, is that he can't avoid other players rings, buffing his projectile speed isn't going to do much for him when he can hardly avoid people to keep weapons in the first place.