My personal rant. (Long post warning!)

Well, I guess I'll offer an idea.
The FAQ could perhaps use an update, to include some of today's more... Well, frequently asked questions. Such as "I can't connect to the master server", and "Why doesn't my WAD work?"
It certainly won't solve the problem. But it could spare us a few dumb questions from those who can find a FAQ thread, but not a search button.
In truth, it's the only semi-helpful idea I can come up with that hasn't already been suggested yet. But maybe it'll get a suggestion ball rolling, perhaps.

I'm not sure if it was Furiousfox or yourself who mentioned it, but I believe it's time to consider the possible solution of disallowing users to register.

For the record, I personally feel that the forums have already gone to hell. That's not to say it ain't reversable, however.

This board has truly died in the eyes of many. I know I'm part of that group. And you guys can take your theories of "well, if we entact rule so-and-so, that should kill off half of the idiocity around here" and shove them up your ass, because it won't do a thing. Nothing will. SRB2 has reached it's breaking point. Time to stop wishing for your old community back, guys. Because as much as I hate to admit it, it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

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You hit the nail on the head, Omega.

Spazzo said:

I'm not sure if it was Furiousfox or yourself who mentioned it, but I believe it's time to consider the possible solution of disallowing users to register.

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Yeah! That an ingienious plan! (Spelled incorrectly for sarcasm.)

3 months later: Hey Mystic, maybe we should re allow registering; there's only 3 of us left here.

SSNTails said:

Or maybe you feel the way you do because nobody's paying attention to you anymore.

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Hahahahahahahahahaha

Omega the Hedgehog said:

Digiku is in a god damned hospital for attempted suicide.

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What. When did this happen? Why did this happen? How did it happen? And how did you find out about it. He was one of the last people I'd have expected to do something like that.

Omega the Hedgehog said:

Ritz's appearances here are brief and rare at best and it would be unusual if his posts had any conveyable point aside from making some sort of joke at a newbie's expense.

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I've been trying hard to make myself useful as of late, but shoveling sand against the tide gets a bit disheartening sometimes!

Tets said:

Honestly I don't see what the point is to complaining about an internet community supposedly dying.

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Mabye... Mabye we complain because, deep down, we actually care about what happens to this forum? This place played a crucial part in my becoming a respectable internetian, and it pains me to see it go to waste like this.

Mystic said:

I don't see any suggestions. I, personally, do not want the forum to go to hell, and am perfectly willing to implement any good ideas of how to deal with our arch-enemy, exponential growth.

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Expontential growth and the community's dwindling collective IQ are only half the problem. I've just about given up hope on the community ever being the way it was before in those regards, and there really is no viable solution for that. What really needs to be fixed (And actually can be, I'd wager) is the 'creator' end of the spectrum. Honestly, there hasn't been anything worthwhile in the Releases forum since it's conception. It seems to me that people are creating wads only for the sake of getting a high out of creating something and having others praise them for it, because they sure as hell can't be enjoying what they're churning out. A good wad this does not make.

And now, for a suggestion: we create a guide that establishes, in great detail, precisely what makes good wads good, and how to go about making such a wad. Not one of those cheap aluminum guides we've seen before that tell you the basics and nothing more; we need to break wadding down to a science, a reproducible algorithm. A challenge, yes, but I'm sure it's doable- I've come to realize that there's a certain rhythm to how geography and objects are placed an arranged, to when paths should or shouldn't branch, etc. We just need to block it out in a concrete form so that the newbies who actually do wish to make something worthwhile (Read: People who don't make a single 12000x12000 sector, fill it with rings and call it a day) have something to go by without having to take the time to discern the formula for themselves (Which they should be able to do on their own, but they aren't taking the bait, so).

Blue Warrior said:

Exactly. Why can't we put our heads together and think of something to solve the problem - or avoid it, if no more? Maybe we can think of a way to attract more intelligent members than we do morons? Or perhaps I could create a forum on my website solely for the purpose of being just like the SRB2 message board, but where noobs are too stupid to even notice it? I've got lots of spare bandwidth, you know; I could even let us upload files on there with absolutely no hassle of downloading them if I wanted to.

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You want us to save the forum by abandoning it? No, not going to work. As for attracting intelligent members, well, the fangaming community has always been seen as magnet for idiots by outside parties. Any intelligent person who just happens to stumble across this forum wouldn't bother to stick around for long, so long as the stupidity persists. We'd have to deal with the morons we have now, make them smarten up- shame that no amount of rule-shoehorning is going to phase them.

Spazzo said:

I'm not sure if it was Furiousfox or yourself who mentioned it, but I believe it's time to consider the possible solution of disallowing users to register.

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Not going to work. Blocking out potentially useful members (All members in general, actually) would only accelerate the forum's death. Besides, we'd still have plenty of idiots on the inside that simply can't be dealt with.

Maby its the fact the search thing is pretty useless. I use it to find wads I need for a server and when i type in the wads name I get about 600 useless topics that dont even mention what im looking for and its a pain in the ass to dig through all those results for the one topic that has a broken link to the wad or the site requires a password. If it wasnt for the fact that i liked srb2 i would have left a long time ago.

My Suggestion would be to update the main srb2.org main page with all the character wad links and have a good file hosting site that everyone uses that dosnt not expire or require a password to download the wad.

The tuts on the Wiki dont even help at all. The people wrote those assume you know how to use the program/s required. A good tutorial should have screen shots with draw overs and the writer should assume that the person has never even used the program/s. If u want to stop the noobie questions u have to have more in depth answers.

Ritz said:

And now, for a suggestion: we create a guide that establishes, in great detail, precisely what makes good wads good, and how to go about making such a wad. Not one of those cheap aluminum guides we've seen before that tell you the basics and nothing more; we need to break wadding down to a science, a reproducible algorithm. A challenge, yes, but I'm sure it's doable- I've come to realize that there's a certain rhythm to how geography and objects are placed an arranged, to when paths should or shouldn't branch, etc. We just need to block it out in a concrete form so that the newbies who actually do wish to make something worthwhile (Read: People who don't make a single 12000x12000 sector, fill it with rings and call it a day) have something to go by without having to take the time to discern the formula for themselves (Which they should be able to do on their own, but they aren't taking the bait, so).

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I'll be more than willing to take a part in that tutorial. I could probably cover some aspects of level and character making, though I'd have have to leave the rest to somebody else.

Blue Warrior said:

Exactly. Why can't we put our heads together and think of something to solve the problem - or avoid it, if no more? Maybe we can think of a way to attract more intelligent members than we do morons? Or perhaps I could create a forum on my website solely for the purpose of being just like the SRB2 message board, but where noobs are too stupid to even notice it? I've got lots of spare bandwidth, you know; I could even let us upload files on there with absolutely no hassle of downloading them if I wanted to.

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You want us to save the forum by abandoning it? No, not going to work.

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I realize that won't save the forum; it'll just move the smarter part of the community to a different location and leave the noobs behind. But yeah, it was just an idea. :p

You guys blow every thing out of proportion, the forums aren't that bad.

Ritz said:

Expontential growth and the community's dwindling collective IQ are only half the problem. I've just about given up hope on the community ever being the way it was before in those regards, and there really is no viable solution for that.

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Part of the problem is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the community to be the way it "was", and trying to make it that is like denying the fundamental concept of time. The only way to get places like they were is to invent a time machine, and trying to make the forum like it was is asking for failure.

What we need to do is improve what we have and make it less stupid. It is possible to make a community that doesn't suck of this size, but we need a plan and the drive to execute it.

As compared to what, Gamefaqs?

Well, seeing as almost none of your posts seem to respond to Mystic's query, I'll go ahead and respond:

Mystic said:

So you think the forums have gone to hell. What are you going to do about it?

If it's simply to complain and rant on the message board, we don't need that kind of garbage here. I see a ton of people agreeing for no reason and basically saying "seconded", "thirded", and other useless things. I don't see any suggestions. I, personally, do not want the forum to go to hell, and am perfectly willing to implement any good ideas of how to deal with our arch-enemy, exponential growth.

Should we add new forums to attempt to spread the gigantic influx of posts to new areas?
Should we institute even stricter rules enforcement to lead to quicker and more efficient bans?
Should we deltree the entire forum directory and get it over with?

Honestly, I've run out of particularly good ideas on how to try and deal with exponential growth, and I'm burned out. Hence, I don't post here much because I honestly don't like dealing with this forum much anymore.

You want a better forum? Come up with a solution. Don't just state the problem. The last thing we need is another person running around saying the sky is falling, thanks.

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I've said this multiple times, but apparently no one acknowledges.

First, the Sonic Team Junior staff board should be erased. I'm only saying this because I'm assuming that's what's preventing new administrators from being made - simply because they can look into that section. More administrators = less stress. Moderators have no access to a banlist, and therefore warnings can go on until an administrator is active.

Second, active moderators are needed. Even last night, SRB2-Playah admitted to rarely visiting the boards, only lurking, mostly. The fact is that moderators need to be more active, or more active moderators are needed.

Third, I really think that there should be very little in the way of moderators deleting pointless, spammy posts. A warning is great, but the posts are still there. It's only a couple of clicks to remove them.

Fourth, and I know the reaction this will get, but it must be said. Recolor characters should be against the rules at this point. I mean, if at this point, people have already started making it, they can finish, provided there was a topic about it before this rule would be set. An exception to this would be something like the SRB2 Riders modification, where the sprites are edited to work correctly with said modification, and not just as an addon character. This in itself may motivate people to do something relevant. This would easily clean up the Editing and Releases section of the boards.

I'm sure there's more that could be done, but these thoughts come to mind.

Dark Warrior said:

Fourth, and I know the reaction this will get, but it must be said. Recolor characters should be against the rules at this point.

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You just read my mind. I'm not the only one who doesn't give a crap to play with recolor wads, am I?

Although there should be a clear definition of recolor. So much could be considered. Thinking more along the lines of editing existing characters to make fan characters...I could EASILY see a "This is not a recolor" flare if not clearly defined.

This may slightly off topic, but meh.

Uhm. Yes, there is quite a mad rush of "n00bs" here currently. To be honest, I am also one of those who whines about it.

But to be honest, half (if not all) of us started at some kind of lower level.

I've know SRB2 since the first Halloween release. My brother, SSNWadmanKiddo, showed me. Of course, I was too young back then to be an actual part of the community. I joined the "SRB2fun" community around Demo 4 time or so, disappeared, then I rejoined at about right after the Espernet move. Basically, my status of "oldbie" is questioned, but I definitely remember the older times.

One of the main problems is people whine, and they basically leave the community. Plenty of our old wadders decided to quit, and many of our old members left. Sure, we have a massive amount of n00biles existing in the community, but the main reason the community so-called "sucks" now is because us oldbies are the one who are truly being n00bs - complaining about things like this, and half of them disappearing. If all of the "smart" people of the community leave, there will be little to no smart new people. Not all the new members are amazing, but some have potential. If we lack role models, who will live up to them?

I still am a active member of the community. While I am more of a lurker of the forums, I am very active otherwise. I still play netgames, and I still am making friends in them. I am still WADing. To some whom of left a long time ago, I may of been considered a n00b, but not anymore. It just took time. The reason I am a current smart member of the community currently is because I was influenced by the oldbies of the community - SSNWadmanKiddo may of left a insanely long time ago, but he is one of the reasons I still exist in here now.

Yeah, so stop whining about community sucking if you are stopping your relationships with it - you are probably half the reason the community sucks now.



Now, about getting rid of the actually bad n00bs, I'll leave that to the rest of you. Since, in my opinion, it's a lost cause.

You know, all of this talk about the the forums being a lost cause just reminds me of how things were in #srb2fun about a year and a half ago. Things were bad; we had about 30 users, only about 10 of them actually any good. I was determined to fix the channel, try to make it intelligent again. Everyone was telling me that #srb2fun was a lost cause, and that I was better off just letting it die, but I didn't listen. I wrote new rules, and started strict enforcement of them. It was hectic at first, I almost felt like I was making no progress as people kept telling me how much of a nazi I was and how much they hated me, and how the channel still seemed as bad as it was when I started. But, I kept with it, and eventually things started to turn around. The number of bad users began decreasing, and the number of good users began increasing. 16 months ago I couldn't even look away for a minute without something massively going wrong, now I can sit back and relax knowing that the chatroom can take care of itself. Today, the channel is healthier than it has ever been.

The forum is not a lost cause yet, we can save it. It's just going to take alot of hard work and a very long amount of time. I do feel that the 3-strike system is having an impact, a small one, but it's helping nonetheless. We just need to keep our enforcement of the rules strong, and eventually things will start to get better. Personally, I don't feel the problem is as bad as some of you are making it out to be. Sure, there's alot of new people making hangout maps, recolor characters, and timer SOCs, but a decent portion of the new people can at least follow the rules. As Mystic said, it's mostly just a problem of growth; we're growing faster than we're ready to deal with. We're trying to adapt, but it's going to take time.

Exactly as I've been saying. Have I acknowledged what problems we have? Yes. Have I stated potential solutions for those problems? Yes.

Have I given up on this board?

Hell no. And I refuse to.

The problem, as I've stated, is people whine and bitch and complain, and forget that they need to offer solutions to what they think is the problem, which in turn contributes to the problem.

I agree complaning here isnt gonna solve the problem. I have an idea on the warning system; On other forums there is like a warning bar under the usernames that shows how much trouble they are in that only only the user and other mods, and admins can see. when it reaches a set amount the mods and admins take action by suspending, banning, ect. I think you should try that system but instead of a bar it shows a number out of 3 since you are using the 3 strikes rule.

1.08 isn't that old. Before then, there were oldbies complaining and YOU GUYS were the n00bs. It just cycles around.

I don't think the board is in trouble. The game situation is a lot like 1.08 was -- there's going to be a significant time frame before another release comes about. It's probably going to return to something similar to how you want it to be.

anacreon said:

I agree complaning here isnt gonna solve the problem. I have an idea on the warning system; On other forums there is like a warning bar under the usernames that shows how much trouble they are in that only only the user and other mods, and admins can see. when it reaches a set amount the mods and admins take action by suspending, banning, ect. I think you should try that system but instead of a bar it shows a number out of 3 since you are using the 3 strikes rule.

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I think they already have a thread for keeping tabs on different users. So, personally, I think it'd be primarily useless.

Responce time!

Furiousfox said:

It reminds me of #srb2fun about a year and a half ago. Things were bad; we had about 30 users, only about 10 of them actually any good.

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Tell me, what does that make #srb2fun now? It's probably around 50 users with only 5 who are any good nowadays. The proportions before were favourable, personally.

Furiousfox said:

Today, the channel is healthier than it has ever been.

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Uh, what. Healthy as in user count or healthy as in behavior? One of these is above healthy, while the other is dwindling.

Bigboi said:

The administrators now are basically babysitters. Have you no standards? This isn't the SRB2 Message Board I remember.

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Quoted for truth. Actions speak quite louder than words, yet we haven't gotten any of 'em.

Ritz said:

Mabye... Mabye we complain because, deep down, we actually care about what happens to this forum? This place played a crucial part in my becoming a respectable internetian, and it pains me to see it go to waste like this.

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That probably sums up my entire argument in a couple of sentences.

Ritz said:

And now, for a suggestion: we create a guide that establishes, in great detail, precisely what makes good wads good, and how to go about making such a wad. Not one of those cheap aluminum guides we've seen before that tell you the basics and nothing more; we need to break wadding down to a science, a reproducible algorithm. We just need to block it out in a concrete form so that the newbies who actually do wish to make something worthwhile have something to go by without having to take the time to discern the formula for themselves.

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This is where the SRB2 Wiki fails. It's filled with undetailed skimmable basic guidelines, nothing more. When Digiku became part of the team, he strived to change it into a detailed wiki, and partially succedded; however with his latest incident, I doubt this will continue.

Dark Warrior said:

Second, active moderators are needed. Even last night, SRB2-Playah admitted to rarely visiting the boards, only lurking, mostly. The fact is that moderators need to be more active, or more active moderators are needed.

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I don't see where this is needed at all. We needed them desperatly before we got them, so we got them. Why do we need more of what we have plenty of?

Dark Warrior said:

Fourth, and I know the reaction this will get, but it must be said. Recolor characters should be against the rules at this point. I mean, if at this point, people have already started making it, they can finish, provided there was a topic about it before this rule would be set.

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Don't get me wrong, I can't stand them either, but I don't think this will work. A rule like this doesn't have a visible boundary to it, to differenciate what is and what is not a recolor.

Spazzo said:

Responce time!

Furiousfox said:

It reminds me of #srb2fun about a year and a half ago. Things were bad; we had about 30 users, only about 10 of them actually any good.

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Tell me, what does that make #srb2fun now? It's probably around 50 users with only 5 who are any good nowadays. The proportions before were favourable, personally.

Furiousfox said:

Today, the channel is healthier than it has ever been.

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Uh, what. Healthy as in user count or healthy as in behavior? One of these is above healthy, while the other is dwindling.

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Where have you been? The behavior in the channel is ALOT better than it used to be. I don't have to yell at people anywhere NEAR as much as I used to. People are actually talking about SRB2 and wads again. There are many respectable users that join and chat, and not nearly as many idiots as there used to be (and those that do exist are quickly taken care of). Your guess of 5 good users out of 50 is VERY wrong, it's more like 35 out of 40. #srb2fun has made a great recovery from the bad shape it was in back then. If the chatroom can do it, so can the MB.