Which level do you like/hate the most in SRB2?

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If Knuckles were able to go super and Tails weren't, I would be doubly pissed off. Tails is a character too, and the only reason they made that a prevention was so they wouldn't have to explain why Tails couldn't turn Super in Sonic 2.

I've always felt that all characters should have equal benefits in any game from acquiring the game's collectibles. The story has never justified one character constantly being neglected in that regard. As of now, Sonic being the only one to turn Super is more fair than Sonic and Knuckles both, since that singles out one character in a bad way, but now it only singles out one character in a good way.

It should be all or nothing, that's the only way to be fair.

Is being fair important enough that this is a concern?
 
You should always give people an incentive for doing something in a video game. Always.
You see, this is where I disagree. Some of the best and most enjoyable experiences I've had playing games, SRB2 included, have been doing things that give me no tangible benefit.

SRB2 is a game. This means we put forth objectives and expect the player to complete them (such as getting to the end of the stage or collecting the Chaos Emeralds). However, there are many times when players will make their own objective and there is no problem with that. I have seen videos of people Crawla bouncing through almost an entire stage, or getting insane stuff like a Perfect Bonus in ERZ2. There's no benefit for doing it, but it's there and in the game for those willing to give it a shot.

I have fond memories of trying to get a Perfect before it even displayed when you succeeded, and managing to get to where Sonic's emblem currently is in GFZ1. In fact, if you look at the emblem locations, a lot of them (especially as Sonic) are the results of me playing around in a "I wonder if I can get up THERE" attitude for fun.

I still remember when AJ posted a hoax to get into a non-existent secret that involved getting to the Armageddon Shield in GFZ2 as Sonic. We thought it was impossible. We were proven wrong.
 
In fact, if you look at the emblem locations, a lot of them (especially as Sonic) are the results of me playing around in a "I wonder if I can get up THERE" attitude for fun.
In my opinion, Mystic, none of your creations better exemplifies that principle than Sonic's emblem in Jade Coast Zone Act 1. That one forces players to Crawla-bounce, and underwater at that. I might have found trying to do that more fun if there hadn't been a tangible prize...because it would have left me with a hollow, frustrated feeling if I couldn't do it. Then again, it made victory much sweeter.

Now that I think about it, one of the defining traits that made both GFZ and THZ so darn fun is that those zones are chock-full of opportunities to embody the "I wonder if I can get up THERE" mentality. By far the most fun I have ever had playing through those levels were the times when I was bouncing all over the place, exploring for secrets and seeing where I could get to. I don't think it's really a definitive trait of the professional Sonic games (even the originals), and I think it's arguably among SRB2's finest moments.

I kind of wish that more of the official zones had as many chances to set those genuine ridiculous platforming challenges; ACZ has a bit of it, and to some extent, DSZ has it too, but you can't really find any of that funky, beguiling platforming charm in CEZ, RVZ, or ERZ. Not that that's necessarily the end of the world--these levels are very distinctive and epic in other regards, and, to be honest, I don't see how it could reasonably exist in a zone like ERZ. But it's still kind of something that the levels constructed in the pre-2.0 era have all their own.
 
In my opinion, Mystic, none of your creations better exemplifies that principle than Sonic's emblem in Jade Coast Zone Act 1. That one forces players to Crawla-bounce, and underwater at that. I might have found trying to do that more fun if there hadn't been a tangible prize...because it would have left me with a hollow, frustrated feeling if I couldn't do it. Then again, it made victory much sweeter.

Now that I think about it, one of the defining traits that made both GFZ and THZ so darn fun is that those zones are chock-full of opportunities to embody the "I wonder if I can get up THERE" mentality. By far the most fun I have ever had playing through those levels were the times when I was bouncing all over the place, exploring for secrets and seeing where I could get to. I don't think it's really a definitive trait of the professional Sonic games (even the originals), and I think it's arguably among SRB2's finest moments.

I kind of wish that more of the official zones had as many chances to set those genuine ridiculous platforming challenges; ACZ has a bit of it, and to some extent, DSZ has it too, but you can't really find any of that funky, beguiling platforming charm in CEZ, RVZ, or ERZ. Not that that's necessarily the end of the world--these levels are very distinctive and epic in other regards, and, to be honest, I don't see how it could reasonably exist in a zone like ERZ. But it's still kind of something that the levels constructed in the pre-2.0 era have all their own.

I understand the "I wonder if I can-" mentality, and I can understand what makes it a good idea to use in the game, it gives a puzzle element to it...

...But the only way that works for the emeralds is if they themselves were hidden in the levels and not their tokens.

The thing about prizes for every action is they give that more accomplished feeling. Sure it's fun to hop around on badniks but hopping on badniks is different from hunting for the emeralds, hoping for a super form, not getting one, and never bothering with the emeralds again. The only thing worse than that hollow feeling of not being able to accomplish something, is to find out that when you do, you get jack shit for it, or you don't get what you expected to from past experiences.
 
I disagree, Galefox. I can assure you that I've had far more fun just fucking around in Sonic Adventure than trying to find all the Enblems.
 
I disagree, Galefox. I can assure you that I've had far more fun just fucking around in Sonic Adventure than trying to find all the Enblems.

So have I, but the reward for getting the emblems was crap in the original Sonic Adventure anyway. They were slightly more worth the time in DX.
 
The original had a reward?

Exactly. :D

It's not compelling enough, it's about as relevant to me as trophies on the PSN: I'll go after them if I feel like it, and I have nothing else on the game to do, but otherwise I don't care about them, and am too concerned with completing the game's accomplishments that are worth something like progression in the stories like on Oblivion or costume pieces on LBP.
 
Some people feel like you need a big reward for a complicated challenge. I really don't think that having rewards for everything is necessary.

Personally, when I play games to 100% completion, I do it for the pure satisfaction of playing to 100% completion. I have a full Pokedex in Leaf Green and Diamond. You don't really get anything for doing it except the satisfaction of saying you did it.

We aren't trying to force anyone to play the game the way we've structured it. You'll actually notice that the important unlockables, such as the SRB1 remake, are all relatively easy to unlock, where the rewards for the more difficult things, like all emblems, are far less dramatic and important. Sure, we do give you something for getting all the emblems, but it's not nearly as big a deal as say, SA2's all emblem reward.

The reason this is so important is that many people will do things they hate to unlock things that are a big deal. I remember the hours and hours I spent grinding Chao, long after I had all As, just so I could play Green Hill. I hated every minute of that 10-15 hour grind, and I consider that to be awful, awful game design. If I had known it was going to take that long for me to get the Chao emblems I would have never even tried and cheated my way into Green Hill. I don't want players to feel like they are forced to do something they hate to get the cool unlockables. If you don't like getting all the emeralds in SRB2, you'll only need to do it once, not three times. If you don't like the emblem hunt, you aren't missing out on much important if you don't do it.

In my opinion, Mystic, none of your creations better exemplifies that principle than Sonic's emblem in Jade Coast Zone Act 1. That one forces players to Crawla-bounce, and underwater at that. I might have found trying to do that more fun if there hadn't been a tangible prize...because it would have left me with a hollow, frustrated feeling if I couldn't do it. Then again, it made victory much sweeter.
Actually, I personally consider that emblem to be a general failure of mine. Forcing players to do it in a specific way really ruins a lot of the fun. I like to point more to the GFZ1 Sonic emblem, where most people do it with a spindash+thok, but some people try to crawla bounce it (and it's totally possible to do it that way as well).
 
Some people feel like you need a big reward for a complicated challenge. I really don't think that having rewards for everything is necessary.

Personally, when I play games to 100% completion, I do it for the pure satisfaction of playing to 100% completion. I have a full Pokedex in Leaf Green and Diamond. You don't really get anything for doing it except the satisfaction of saying you did it.

We aren't trying to force anyone to play the game the way we've structured it. You'll actually notice that the important unlockables, such as the SRB1 remake, are all relatively easy to unlock, where the rewards for the more difficult things, like all emblems, are far less dramatic and important. Sure, we do give you something for getting all the emblems, but it's not nearly as big a deal as say, SA2's all emblem reward.

The reason this is so important is that many people will do things they hate to unlock things that are a big deal. I remember the hours and hours I spent grinding Chao, long after I had all As, just so I could play Green Hill. I hated every minute of that 10-15 hour grind, and I consider that to be awful, awful game design. If I had known it was going to take that long for me to get the Chao emblems I would have never even tried and cheated my way into Green Hill. I don't want players to feel like they are forced to do something they hate to get the cool unlockables. If you don't like getting all the emeralds in SRB2, you'll only need to do it once, not three times. If you don't like the emblem hunt, you aren't missing out on much important if you don't do it.


Actually, I personally consider that emblem to be a general failure of mine. Forcing players to do it in a specific way really ruins a lot of the fun. I like to point more to the GFZ1 Sonic emblem, where most people do it with a spindash+thok, but some people try to crawla bounce it (and it's totally possible to do it that way as well).

I should be arguing with you, but I agree too much with that post despite how I look at video games to find a reason that doesn't sound like bullshit to me. xD

I think it's just that the emeralds in 'official' Sonic are known for such rewards, since Sonic 3, we've had the possibility (often favored) for all Super forms, and it's become their point, more or less (the 'less' coming from the new games' lack of it.) And it just seemed hollow for them to exist without that, since it's been given at one point, and was largely popular.

I can relate to that point of view though. I love raising chao, but getting all A rank has always frustrated me because it requires a tremendous amount of skill and reflex that I just don't have, will never have, and don't care to have.
 
I'd like to remind you that ONLY Sonic 3 & Knuckles has super forms for Tails or Knuckles. Every other game doesn't. Sonic 3 alone doesn't. None of the other official Sonic games, before or after, let Tails or Knuckles go super in any way.

I personally consider that part of S3K a mistake.
 
Wrong. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the only game to allow Tails to go Super. In the same game Sonic and Knuckles can go Hyper.

when was the last time you played those games anyway?Sonic 3 alone doesn't let Knuckles go super because he wasn't playable out side of competition mode, and that mode doesn't have the emeralds.

The lock on cartage Sonic & Knuckles allowed both playable characters, Sonic and Knuckles, to go Super with just the Chaos Emeralds.

Do I need to link you to a few youtube videos?
 
Ignoring the asinine comment above...

I'd like to remind you that ONLY Sonic 3 & Knuckles has super forms for Tails or Knuckles. Every other game doesn't. Sonic 3 alone doesn't. None of the other official Sonic games, before or after, let Tails or Knuckles go super in any way.

I personally consider that part of S3K a mistake.

I know, but I expected it to be more popular among fan games. In fact, it's one of those things fan games implement that the official ones won't. I thought it was strange that this one didn't want to follow that trend when I brought it up.
 
When I played through as Tails, I really couldn't say I hated much of anything, but when I started with Sonic, things changed fast.

I'd have to say for my Likes, I'm a big fan of Egg Rock. It's challenging and visually awesome.

I hate Arid Canyon, if only for the Pulley system. I lose so many lives in that system than anything else....
 
Like: Jade valley zone, Noxious factory, Green hill zone 2

Dislike/hate: Infernal Cavern Zone, Arid Canyon, Deep Sea Zone (All 3 of them) and Castle Eggman zone (All 3 of them, too)
 
What's with all the hate for Arid Canyon? If you ask me, it's the second best SRB2 level ever made, after Egg Rock Zone. It's got great gimmicks, pretty scenery, and an open, exploration feel for those who like hunting secrets. Occasionally, I'm confused over where to go, but the SRB2 developers could easily solve that problem with a few well-placed directional arrows. Maybe they could even make rotted wooden arrow signs, sort of like the ACZ hazard signs.
 
Castle Eggman zone (All 3 of them, too)
Even Act 3? O_o


Occasionally, I'm confused over where to go, but the SRB2 developers could easily solve that problem with a few well-placed directional arrows. Maybe they could even make rotted wooden arrow signs, sort of like the ACZ hazard signs.
Arrows are a very easy way out, y'know. Do arrows in natural environments make any sense? No. Would Eggman show the player where to go? No. The layout shouldn't confuse the player in the first place, and that is getting fixed, AFAIK.
 
Yeah I don't get all the hate for that level. It's not that confusing, it's just big.

The scenery is nice and colorful but I wouldn't call it 'beautiful', not in the way Greenflower is anyway. The only time exploration in a level can be a bad thing is when it causes lag (CEZ2) or when it encourrages suicide trips to get used to it. (DSZ)

But I wouldn't ask for arrows... I don't want to be told where to go, if it's really that confusing, would it be hard to just make the side paths narrower and the main paths wider? That seems a popular gimmick in platformers to indicate an area is less important (or appears to be.)

Really though, I've only gotten lost in one area, and that as at some point I don't even remember but I ran in circles for 20 minutes until I realized I was running in circles, but once I figured out where to go, especially around the end of the level, it's not that hard. In fact, it's pretty straightforward, but I can see where Sonic would be screwed at the end. That's why I play through as Tails, I can't be assed with pulley gimmicks. Hated them in Hydrocity and I hate them in 3-D. Except now, they're harder to aim for. :/

I don't think there's a gimmick I loved in Hydrocity actually... But that's off-topic. =P
 
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