New 2D Sonic game "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" announced for 2010
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Blacklightning
Insane Idealist
Not if you consider he's the same guy who designed Shadow the Hedgehog's game... >.>
Wombatwarlord777
"...What?"
As a level designer or some other designer role? Either way, that's a bad omen...
Actually, I'm fairly concerned for this game (as lame as that sounds). My main worry is that there's practically no innovation. Say what you will about Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3, and Sonic Rush, but nobody can deny that Dimps made an honest effort to rejuvenate tried-and-true basic Sonic gameplay in each of those games. They clearly struck out in more than a few places (Adv. 2's boss battles and Adv. 3's laborious chao hunts come to mind), but I appreciate their efforts nonetheless because their games were genuinely exciting to play.
Even Sonic 2, 3 and Knuckles, while not as revolutionary as each individual Advance/Rush title, skillfully managed to add to the original concept without overburdening the player. Spin Dashes, flight-enhanced Tails, Knuckles and his secret routes, elemental shields, mid-bosses, bonus stages, increasingly innovative Special Stages... Each progressive title got a little more sophisticated and made the whole Sonic-playing experience so much richer in the process.
...Which brings me to Sonic 4... Based upon what we've seen so far, creativity and innovation seem to have taken a backseat to dishing-up nostalgia. The zones that we have (again, thus far) are visual rehashes of Green Hill, Casino Night, Labyrinth Zone, and Metropolis. None of the enemies thus revealed are original creations. Even the Special Stage is structurally identical to that of Sonic 1. So, is the focus on nostalgia really such a bad thing?
I don't know for sure, but I personally don't like where things are going. Sure, a redesigned Motobug is nice, as I myself have said. But between that and something new, I'd much rather have something new, especially for this game. This is Sonic 4. Like its chronological predecessors successfully did, It's supposed to build on the title that came before it, in this case Sonic and Knuckles. I'm not talking aesthetic or storytelling innovations, although those are nice and personally much preferred to what we're getting. I'm talking gameplay innovations. Aside from the confirmation of Sonic's Homing Attack, I don't see any evidence that the developers are trying anything new.
What about incorporating the series' traditionally excellent music into the actual gameplay? Maybe if you dispatch a line of badniks in time to the BGM (made all the easier with the inclusion of the Homing Attack) you get a score multiplier. Or maybe in Mad Gear, you can find certain turntables that allow the player to adjust the direction and tempo of the music, which correlate to the direction and speed of conveyor belts? What about putting Sonic in the background/foreground of the stages, a la SRA's Sky Babylon (but executed much, much better, along the lines of Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee)? Or what about increased functionality for the Spin Dash? Stuff like cutting down trees to form bridges or maneuvering through air ducts or powering cylindrical generators? These are only a few of the things the developers could toy with in the game, and they are certainty not the most creative possibilities. And surely, at least a few ideas must be able to add to the experience while being able to be executed well.
I apologize for rambling on and making such a big deal out of so trivial a matter. But this is Sonic 4. I want badly for it to be every bit as great as its predecessors were (though I'm prepared for the reality that it probably will not), and good innovation, especially fun gameplay innovations, will be a large factor in determining whether or not the title fulfills those expectations.
Before I close off, let me say that, despite the reservations stated in this post, I'm thrilled that Dimps is developing this game. True, their batting averages have never been as good as the original Sonic Team and Sega Technical Institute. But they've made decent games overall, IMO, and nobody else today has the experience they do in making 2D Sonic games.
Long post is long.
Blacklightning
Insane Idealist
Game designer actually, if I remember right.
Which is ironic, because this is exactly what the fans asked for in the 10+ years prior to S4. Although, you could argue the Homing Attack bringing something to the table that the classics don't - whether or not that's for positive effect is still up for debate. Either way, yet another fine example of "careful what you wish for" as demonstrated by our wonderous, lovely fanbase. =D
Considering the fanbase regularly bickers on altered details as petty and meaningless as Sonic's ******* eye colour, I'm amazed you expected any different from revisting the classics. While it's true the original trio built on top of each other, you of all people should know how sick everyone is of pointless gimmicks in Sonic games, and to most people, even if misleadingly, it seems only logical to rehash as much from the classics as possible.
Of course, only now do people see issue with that. Goddamned hypocrites.
Wombatwarlord777
"...What?"
I don't think the following is precisely what you meant, but innovation doesn't necessarily has to equate to pointless gimmicks. Innovation in Sonic games works either because the changes are so unobtrustive that they do not detract from what I keep calling "tried-and-true" Sonic gameplay (the Spin Dash in Sonic 2, the Elemental Shields in Sonic 3, ect.), or when major shifts in gameplay are introduced (Sonic Advance 2's emphasis on speed) the developers make sure that everything works around the changes and that the experience is still enjoyable (Sonic Advance 2's unusually drawn-out level design, which is lame and uneventful while traveling at Sonic 1 - 3 speeds, is perfect for Sonic Advance 2 speeds).
When either of the preceding methods of innovation are done properly, it reflects good judgment and resourcefulness on the part of the developers, and is what I would argue separates worthwhile changes from pointless gimmicks. Heroes, Shadow, and Rush's required combat sections were stupid decisions that stemmed from multiple pointless gimmicks (enemies with HP, doors/boxes that don't open unless you defeat all enemies, ect.) because each undermined the flow that is so important in Sonic games. That said, I now better appreciate Sonic the Werehog. Sure, he's doing the same enemy-crunching as in the aforementioned games, but he's built for combat, not flow. There's no wasted potential.
On the other hand, I'd argue that the odious Special Stages of Heroes are not a problem of poor judgment (it looks just like any other Sonic Special Stage and is supposed to be a development of Sonic 2's excellent Special Stages), but rather of bad resourcefulness with the games' control/physics limits or simply bad resourcefulness in not polishing out the Special Stages to a sufficient degree before the game was released. It is here that less is more. I'd much rather take a scaled-down version of Heroes's Special Stages as long as the result played well and was fun. And if that's impossible, then I'd prefer no Special Stages at all.
tl;dr version - I certainly don't mind (and still somewhat expect) gameplay innovations in Sonic 4, as long as its developers ensure that they're enjoyable and properly implemented.
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Bobinator
My thoughts on your posting
Here's something I found. Now, I can NOT guarantee this is real, and personally, I don't think it is, but this guy on Sonic Retro says he played an alpha of Sonic 4, and wrote what he thought of it.
Warning: This guy could be a really good troll. I am NOT saying this is real.
He also SUPPOSEDLY posted a PM from RubyEclipse saying not leak any more stuff, no idea if that's real, either. I just thought some of you may be interested to see this. However, let me repeat: This probably not real. You never know, though.
Warning: This guy could be a really good troll. I am NOT saying this is real.
Endri said:
He also SUPPOSEDLY posted a PM from RubyEclipse saying not leak any more stuff, no idea if that's real, either. I just thought some of you may be interested to see this. However, let me repeat: This probably not real. You never know, though.
Wombatwarlord777
"...What?"
Control-wise, I guess this is the one thing that I have significant reservations about. DIMPS managed to program a perfectly serviceable jump way back in Sonic Advance. Although I thought jumps in the Rush series were okay, I still don't get why the move became worse in subsequent games.
And the clip that was previously available indicates that the jump move really is awful, at least at this stage of development. Like I said, I do hope they mop up the controls and physics for this game.
a bee
Ecosystem essential
The question I wonder is, how did SEGA pick up such incompetent NDA-ignorant testers so easily for something very secret? If it were real that is...as it smells of attention stew at the moment. A unruly violated NDA means a serious legal wrath on the matter of exposure of trade secrets.
See if you can connect the dots.
Blacklightning
Insane Idealist
I'm pretty annoyed at this too. I'm just amazed that nostaligafaggery in the fanbase these days has gotten so bad that they won't even give Tails a chance... though I'm still holding out for more playable characters when the next few episodes are released, Lock-On style.
I know. I was merely pointing out for the most part that the fanbase is simply incapable of discerning the difference these days. In some ways I can't blame them, but in most others they really need to get their head out of their ass and realize that regressing in development isn't going to singlehandedly make a good game.
Then you have a hell of a lot more common sense than most other fans I know. Seriously, keep being awesome.
You mean this PM?
I was wondering when someone would bring that preview up. While it's possible Endri managed to play an early copy of the game, it's extremely unlikely that it's the final version of the game like he claims it is - the ESRB copy is merely an evaluation of explicit content, so as long as they somehow don't accidentally insert blood and tits while they're fixing the physics I don't see anything stopping them from doing so.
And if all else fails, well, there's always post-release patching.
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