Moose the Fat Cat
Member
Indeed, that is true! I was making a joke at the end of the post to restate the idea in a different way.
I feel like this is making the exact same point I am!
How SRB2 approaches 2 Button gameplay
- Thread starter Moose the Fat Cat
- Start date
Indeed, that is true! I was making a joke at the end of the post to restate the idea in a different way.
I feel like this is making the exact same point I am!
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
While I agree it's a shame Sonic with his current moveset can't really have exclusive paths, the positive side of this is that it's very rewarding to figure out how to access something as Sonic that's much more straightforward to access as someone else. Some good examples are the DSZ1 emerald token in the big letter V, or the upper path early in CEZ2 that requires you to go inside the building with platforms circling around it, use as spring to go up to the higher set of circling platforms, and carefully dodge spike balls.
softchassis
Call me Nadia
Then I believe I am even further from understanding what point you're making.
If it's that SRB2 deviates too much from established Classic Sonic game design to be considered a true attempt at the Classic Sonic formula but in 3D, I'm of the opinion that, aside from the jump from 2D to 3D, nothing in SRB2 is particularly too out-of-scale with the natural progression of the Classic Sonic series.
Sonic 1 had a jump and a roll.
Sonic 2 added spin-dashing, Super Sonic, and an an entire new character with his own unique skills, and a new special stage.
Sonic 3 added elemental shields and another entirely new character, a new special stage, much bigger levels with alternate pathways unique to which character you're playing, to say nothing of the lock-on feature of the cartridge, which doubles the length of the game and adds a Hyper Sonic and Super forms for the other characters, and adds more bonus stages for a total of three unique ones.
This is even disregarding then-contemporary Sonic games that deviated even further from the formula such as Sonic 3D Blast, which also had a spin button, and even more so, Chaotix, which makes the three buttons do entirely different things, gives you a Tails-like AI partner who is now tethered to you with a rubber-band system of whom you can pick one of seven who are all unique to the game, all of whom have a special ability, splits the zones into five acts, and allows you to select which zone you want to play (albeit with a roulette).
Even just focusing on the first 3 Sonic games (& Knuckles included) each game grew exponentially with new features. Is the way SRB2 handles shield abilities and two-button controls really that wild a departure from the design ethos presented in the Classic series' evolution?
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Moose the Fat Cat
Member
I'll try to remedy!
I don't think two button is a wild departure. In fact, I think it's logical!
If you're going two-button, using the second button in this limited way seems like both (1) a half-measure; incomplete (2) a peculiar deviation from the shield functions as established in every other version of Sonic, at least classic.
In fact, SRB2 adding "Jump Spin" abilities would better follow that exponential progression of abilities you outline from 1-2-3K, the primary difference being that those are designed around "1 Button gameplay."
If the goal is to mimic "1 Button" as close as possible while adjusting for 3D, on the previous page I pitched a version for how SRB2 / 3D Sonic could potentially work on one button; if it follows the classic shield functions, then it's just about how to solve the SA issue of crouch/roll.
(Movement Back + Jump would become roll, or crouch if starting from stationary; MB+J+J would initiate spin dash)
I'm not saying that's better than 2 button, I'm saying it's truer to the aim, if the goal is to be as to-the-book faithful as SRB2 positions itself in other design decisions.
Hence, I think adding native "Jump Spin" ability simply makes the existing controls and design more intuitive, more balanced in favor of the player than the layout, and more consistent and fluent in translating the spirit of Classic Sonic to 3D.
It just seems very... un-Sonic-like for shields to have a unique input. If there's a unique input of control for the character, it should work regardless of whether or not a shield is equipped; it should do something. The shield can change what that ability does. The shield is like Popeye's spinach, it's not, like, giving him a third arm he didn't have before, if that metaphor makes any sense.
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Unknownlight
Member
While I'm happy with the game as it is, I'm actually not entirely against characters having jump-spin abilities, but if so then I'd want it so that only Sonic can use shield abilities.
Obviously every character can still use a shield's passive abilities. This actually a gives a good excuse for why all shields have both passive and active abilities.
- For Sonic, this would let him have exclusive paths. His default jump-spin ability would be something useless for most players like the insta-shield.
- Tails probably wouldn't have a jump-spin, but the existence of the input might teach players about using spin to fly downward sooner.
- Not sure about Knuckles. Also, pressing spin to jump off walls without turning around needs to be tutorialized better somehow.
- Amy's conflicting inputs would be fixed.
- Fang can shoot in mid-air. Maybe if he's in the air while shooting he can only aim straight ahead?
- Metal... I'm not sure.
Obviously every character can still use a shield's passive abilities. This actually a gives a good excuse for why all shields have both passive and active abilities.
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Cyron
Waddle Dee Enthusiast
I feel like this thread is going in circles, two questions which were fine on their own were asked, and now it's just looping back and forth as the topic as the thread creator is essentially regurgitating the same points with people that are against him.
At this point we can clearly see there is no middle ground here.
At this point we can clearly see there is no middle ground here.
Unknownlight
Member
Perhaps the topic can be reframed? "What are some potential jump-spin abilities for the base characters that could be added to a potential mod à la Revised character and shield abilities?"
Moose the Fat Cat
Member
Yeah, I think the pitching ideas part of it is the most fun! Thread creator was trying to amplify those posts! And then otherwise keep the conversation going by responding when prompted, or otherwise pitching out new ways to think about it.
But, I can respond less, @Cyron. Sorry!
---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------
Not challenging this in a you're wrong way, but pitching on in an inquisitive way
But, I can respond less, @Cyron. Sorry!
---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------
Not challenging this in a you're wrong way, but pitching on in an inquisitive way
Why the choice to go especially useless with insta, instead of the more fun drop dash?
What about the idea of jump-spin moving down in a different way? Instead of being straight down, it's more of a diagonal angle, like his trajectory when he's tired, or like the SMW capes.
The lava room in Egg Rock as Knuckles is a nightmare. I like the idea of Knuckles being able to dig with dropclaw or otherwise, since that was always a thing described about Knuckles (like liking grapes) in the classic era.
Also what do you think about replacing Spin Dash to something more unique for Tails and Knuckles? On the subject of fixing things the Classic series got wrong, this would be one for me! Tails and Knuckles can both easily have different types of ground attacks instead of just taking Sonic's thing and also being able to fly/glide/climb.
Imagine if roll/spin was exclusive to Sonic, in addition to Spin Dash. Is there any level path that Tails/Knuckles need roll to finish? Couldn't they take the Amy/Fang paths?
Magnemania
Member
I can't imagine you've been playing Knuckles very efficiently if you want to take away his spindash. Spindashing is far more important for Knuckles than it ever is for Sonic, as Knuckles's ability set naturally puts him at a stop very frequently.
Moose the Fat Cat
Member
That's an accurate assumption. I'm not really interested in time attack. I usually go slower/more exploratory with Knuckles in any Sonic game.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I'm a little late to the party here but I would like to make a point about video game intuitiveness that I haven't seen anyone making. Intuitiveness in video games is based on two things: Experience and practicality. That is to say, what is intuitive to someone playing their very first video game is different from what is intuitive to someone who's been playing them all their life, and even among those who have been playing them all their life what is intuitive to them isn't necessarily the same between decades. Someone playing a first person shooter in the 90's would have an entirely different intuition while playing than someone playing a modern fps today.
As such, things like tutorials are actually incredibly useful for explaining the mechanics of the specific game you are playing. While the idea of every game having entirely invisible tutorials is a tempting concept, this simply isn't always practical, and it's generally better to only partially go down this route. You can occasionally have invisible tutorial stuff, but it's generally a great idea to include an optional, traditional tutorial. Especially since your game might be played decades in the future when what is intuitive to players could potentially be entirely different as a result of various innovations and playstyle changes.
I feel as though games shouldn't shy away from more complex control setups just because of fear that they won't be intuitive, but rather find a balance that feels right with ample opportunity for the player to have the controls explained and/or hinted to them as they play. While I personally have recently been advocating for a three button system, let's disregard that for the sake of the current discussion and focus on how SRB2 handles the current two buttons system well: By placing shield abilities on spin the player is granted access to the shield ability without losing access to their double jump ability. Additionally, this presents the opportunity for characters other than Sonic to use shield abilities. This is a noteworthy upgrade from S3K's one button system, which caused Sonic to lose his instashield and didn't grant the extra ability to Tails or Knuckles. Spin is generally not used for anything else in the air, so mapping them to spin is a great way to avoid conflictions while being useful regardless of character.
So long as this is sufficiently explained in the tutorial, the player doesn't really have an excuse for not picking up on how it works, especially with how GFZ1 hints at it. Even if the tutorial was skipped, players are given reason to experiment, and then common sense and human curiosity dictates that it's only natural that if some shields have extra abilities used by this button combination, others might too and that it's worth experimenting further.
As such, I don't particularly see a problem with how SRB2 handles shield abilities under it's 2 button system. The only way a player is going to miss out on how it's done is if they refused to learn the lesson, which isn't the dev's fault.
As such, things like tutorials are actually incredibly useful for explaining the mechanics of the specific game you are playing. While the idea of every game having entirely invisible tutorials is a tempting concept, this simply isn't always practical, and it's generally better to only partially go down this route. You can occasionally have invisible tutorial stuff, but it's generally a great idea to include an optional, traditional tutorial. Especially since your game might be played decades in the future when what is intuitive to players could potentially be entirely different as a result of various innovations and playstyle changes.
I feel as though games shouldn't shy away from more complex control setups just because of fear that they won't be intuitive, but rather find a balance that feels right with ample opportunity for the player to have the controls explained and/or hinted to them as they play. While I personally have recently been advocating for a three button system, let's disregard that for the sake of the current discussion and focus on how SRB2 handles the current two buttons system well: By placing shield abilities on spin the player is granted access to the shield ability without losing access to their double jump ability. Additionally, this presents the opportunity for characters other than Sonic to use shield abilities. This is a noteworthy upgrade from S3K's one button system, which caused Sonic to lose his instashield and didn't grant the extra ability to Tails or Knuckles. Spin is generally not used for anything else in the air, so mapping them to spin is a great way to avoid conflictions while being useful regardless of character.
So long as this is sufficiently explained in the tutorial, the player doesn't really have an excuse for not picking up on how it works, especially with how GFZ1 hints at it. Even if the tutorial was skipped, players are given reason to experiment, and then common sense and human curiosity dictates that it's only natural that if some shields have extra abilities used by this button combination, others might too and that it's worth experimenting further.
As such, I don't particularly see a problem with how SRB2 handles shield abilities under it's 2 button system. The only way a player is going to miss out on how it's done is if they refused to learn the lesson, which isn't the dev's fault.
Unknownlight
Member
I was still thinking in terms of applying this to the base game when I wrote that post. Like I've mentioned before, I'm against shield abilities replacing useful abilities. So, if a character can use shield abilities, their default jump-spin would either have to be mostly useless or stack in some way with the shield ability (like how in Mario, the Fire Flower doesn't replace running, they just both happen when you press the run button).
softchassis
Call me Nadia
Then I'm afraid I just plainly disagree with this, and the notion that having native jump+spin skills is inherently more in-line with the evolution of the classic games. I disagree that the shields have as much focus as you think they do, maybe because I really didn't bother even collecting shields after my first play through, not even because I was "too good", I just don't think the game really compelled me to get them. SRB2 is already filled with additional things to do, adding native jump+spin skills on top of the shield skills would just add even more of the needless ability clutter, in my opinion. Not even getting into the workload it would add to an already very thinly spread team--they would have to program in an additional skill for each existing character, on top of making more skills for any wholly new character.
Either way, I at last see what your initial point was. I just simply don't agree with it. (And it's not because I think SRB2 is "perfect" and "beyond reproach"--there's a laundry list of things I think are wrong and want changed in SRB2, but the devs explained their reasoning for why certain things are the way they are, namely removal of directional thok and the normalization of everyone's speed and acceleration, and I respect and acknowledge their reasoning for it.)
ETA: This is not me saying your feelings are invalid or that I'm determined to change your mind and am going to keep arguing my point. Truthfully I see why you think what you think. I just respectfully acknowledge we don't see eye to eye on it, and should agree to disagree.
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Moose the Fat Cat
Member
Oops, I was assuming we were agreeing to disagree the whole time. But yeah it can be summed up there. In S3K, shield powers are unique to Sonic to balance his under-powered-ness compared to Tails/Knuckles, and in SRB2, they aren't.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
If the standard to "power" is ability to vertically move through a stage, they actually are. Sonic gets a lot more benefit out of shields in this regard than Tails and Knuckles. Tails can fly and Knuckles can climb, but only with a shield can Sonic currently do a double jump. Granted this only applies to two shields, but it still helps Sonic to be less vertically underpowered compared to Tails and Knuckles.
Mario A. Roach
¡Reremy
A laser wall that requires Sonic to use the insta-shield; it's just a good idea, but doesn't make sense since the Insta-shield is not even considered... I like it but there are enough reasons for why the insta-shield is not a good option.
---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------
Making a Sonic exclusive way is hard because at least Tails - will be able to take it and ruin the exclusiveness.
The commet-dash could make something, but for me it just doesn't fit Sonic well, it feels sort of a to versatile move for Sonic, I think of Sonic like the fastest thing alive, not the MOST versatile thing alive.
izzy
has died
Mario A. Roach
¡Reremy
I know this isn't relevant to this thread or anything, but...
It's cool and all, but I didn't like it - irrelevant, but I didn't like it.
You or whoever recorded it is actually decent commet-dash player, it's cool but I think the thok just wins (if we are talking about speed, thok just generates the max speed out of nowhere).
Repeating myself: I don't like it, it could do something and I still feel like the thok is just the best option... I am pretty sure I'm nostalgia biased, because I've been playing with thok for over a decade. Change is hard. (I don't know why I had to type so much, but I now feel relieved at least :D).
time gear
Eternity in an hour
On the topic of "Sonic paths", while it's true he can't exactly have his own unique paths on account of his moveset, he does have a unique opportunity as the title character that other characters don't: The main path being made mostly with him in mind. This isn't to say that Sonic shouldn't be able to take multiple different paths to reach the goal, the mindset is more that the majority of the offshoot paths branch off from the "Sonic" paths, with "Sonic" being the default that the other paths branch off of and/or eventually back into.
This allows the characters who aren't Sonic to have various optional difficulties based on the paths they choose to take, assuming the "Sonic" path doesn't bar them off with spin requirements. They can stick to the "Sonic" path and probably have an easier time, or they can branch off into their own path more built for them in search of a bigger challenge or a shortcut.
This ties into two button gameplay in the sense that not all characters have spin abilities, and have other abilities instead. Amy has her hammer, and Fang has his popgun. The different pathways meant or not meant for these characters would factor this into their level design, blocking them off or encouraging the characters to make use of their unique abilities.
Conceptually speaking, it would be expected that Amy's paths would make use of using her hammer to break spikes and propel further with springs, while Fang's paths would have targets and enemies for him to shoot with his pop gun and hurdles he can only clear by bouncing over them or precise bounces on narrow platforms. Sections designed for both characters could make use of platforms just low enough for Amy to jump onto them. Admittedly Tails and Knuckles would probably also be able to clear paths designed liked this aside from targets only Fang can shoot, this would need to either be accepted or dealt with somehow.
This allows the characters who aren't Sonic to have various optional difficulties based on the paths they choose to take, assuming the "Sonic" path doesn't bar them off with spin requirements. They can stick to the "Sonic" path and probably have an easier time, or they can branch off into their own path more built for them in search of a bigger challenge or a shortcut.
This ties into two button gameplay in the sense that not all characters have spin abilities, and have other abilities instead. Amy has her hammer, and Fang has his popgun. The different pathways meant or not meant for these characters would factor this into their level design, blocking them off or encouraging the characters to make use of their unique abilities.
Conceptually speaking, it would be expected that Amy's paths would make use of using her hammer to break spikes and propel further with springs, while Fang's paths would have targets and enemies for him to shoot with his pop gun and hurdles he can only clear by bouncing over them or precise bounces on narrow platforms. Sections designed for both characters could make use of platforms just low enough for Amy to jump onto them. Admittedly Tails and Knuckles would probably also be able to clear paths designed liked this aside from targets only Fang can shoot, this would need to either be accepted or dealt with somehow.