Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

Think of an anti-cheat system as a security system.

...Well, this sentence explains the fundamental disagreement here. I'm thinking of this in terms of a system that helps people not wreck their save files / game data if they don't want it to. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're thinking of it in terms of preventing people from unlocking things that they don't "deserve".
 
I'm just going to quote myself from a couple pages ago:

I think we're trying too hard to create the perfect solution here, where the important thing is simply that the player feels rewarded for completing the special stages and isn't forced into doing busy-work arbitrarily.

If someone wants to modify their game in a way that affects their save files, that's their prerogative. Our focus really should be on the core unmodified experience right now.
 
I think the question should be "Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super without using Pandora's Box".

Like, why do I have to go the extra mile for Knuckles, Amy and Fang (and Tails, but I think him not being able to turn super is a bug or something) to have them go super when it's available from the get-go when you have all the emeralds for Sonic and Metal? Yeah, I know that their supers are just glorified Invincibility + Speed Shoes but so is Metal's. I feel like players should be able to benefit from having the emeralds for all of the characters without having to collect 200 emblems on top of that, in order to make it feel more rewarding.
 
...Well, this sentence explains the fundamental disagreement here. I'm thinking of this in terms of a system that helps people not wreck their save files / game data if they don't want it to. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you're thinking of it in terms of preventing people from unlocking things that they don't "deserve".

That makes it sound a lot more harsh than it really is, but effectively yes. There's no point to locking things behind requirements to begin with if it's made so easy to bypass those requirements. It devalues the entire system, you might as well just have everything unlocked from the start for everyone, because that's the only way for it to feel "fair" in the end. I hate that idea though, it destroys the special feeling of having earned things through your own progress.

It's more than just a single player game, it's a journey, in a sense. If the anti-cheat system isn't taken seriously, that journey is going to be easily corrupted and there will be those who feel as though the work they put in to obtain everything was ultimately meaningless because many others took an easier route and obtained the same reward, faster. If you think of gaming as an artform, such a thing is an ugly stain on the canvas.

If someone wants to modify their game in a way that affects their save files, that's their prerogative. Our focus really should be on the core unmodified experience right now.

Cheaters are inevitable, and there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Basically, I agree with you entirely. The anti-cheat system in the vanilla experience is a very important part of said vanilla experience, it is the safeguard that acts as incentive to play through the game properly before modifying it. It is in a sense the very foundation on top of which the entire vanilla game is built, which is exactly why it should be taken seriously.

This has probably strayed way too off topic now however, so I will only reply to this discussion further in regards to Super Forms unless another topic is made in regards to game modification, so as to make this discussion on topic.
 
The problem is that it gets pretty overly complex trying to design in ways to detect what is and isn't a cheat when it comes to such things. For example, HMS definitely counts as a cheat, but a lot of characters that people make are actually reasonably balanced. How do you design it so the cheat system can tell which characters are okay and which characters are not?

This is a non-issue. Players are fully aware of what they're going into when they use an addon, be it for cheesing or just wanting to enjoy an ordinary custom character, and when it comes to Single Player there's no more reasons to make a distinction than ways to make one.

It bothers me a bit that the thread is going this down this lane, though. We could be discussing ways that super forms could be feasible and not detrimental in vanilla because there are (I think the stance that says super forms are irredeemable as a mechanic is as hardline as the super form purists' and should go) and even more so now that it's a real possibility if well conceived.
 
Is there anything stating that Super forms aren't allowed to have some kind of down-side? It would be an interesting twist that maybe super allows you to go into power trip mode but with an added challenge to compensate for the game otherwise being trivialized. I don't have too many ideas for every character, but for example:
Why not have metal's super make him go unstable to the point where he can go outrageously fast but any time he crashes while in boost mode he loses a few rings up until he has none anymore.

I don't know enough about balancing to even know too well if this is a great idea but i'm just throwing out ideas.
 
I kinda like that Metal idea a little. Seems like it would punish you for messing up rather than punishing you for not going fast.
 
Going with Light speedx here. and going into spoiler territory here, as I don't think we can proceed without doing so, I've been thinking, and technically, we kinda have Super everyone else but tails already. Problem is, it takes the Sonic Lost world (Wii U) approach.

While Sonic and Metal get super with just simply 7 emeralds and 50 rings, Knuckles Amy and Fang need the final unlockable that requires ALL the emblems in order to go super currently, or they have use one of 3 mods that includes super everyone for a more traditional super.

Ironic considering some of the Devs hate what Sonic has been since Sonic Adventure, especially moden sonic.
 
We could be discussing ways that super forms could be feasible and not detrimental in vanilla because there are (I think the stance that says super forms are irredeemable as a mechanic is as hardline as the super form purists' and should go) and even more so now that it's a real possibility if well conceived.

Honestly there's already been a lot of discussion in this regard a while back in this thread, but I will go ahead and reiterate some of my ideas in this regard all in one place in this post, since it seems like an opportune time to do so. Some of these ideas will also be new.

Sonic: His hover works more like Metal's current hover where he drops slowly with low speed rather than just falling. When paired with Tails, Tails will also transform when going Super.

Tails: For his super form, I feel like what would flow well with his playstyle is for him to retain speed while flying and to be able to do so for longer (But still not infinite). His swimming ability could become infinite however, and he could gain the ability to carry other characters on his back while swimming. I would pair this up with either a traditional ring drain, or make it so he gains some sort of extra ability that costs rings while transformed.

Knuckles: I would speed up his gliding and climbing while transformed, give him the multiglide (Perhaps have each glide after the first one but before landing have a ring cost of a certain amount), and when he attaches to a wall it causes a shake that destroys nearby badniks from the sheer force of him colliding with the wall. He also gains the ability to swim along the surface of a body of water.

Amy: She doesn't become invincible, but loses 15-20 rings when taking a hit. Her hammer range is increased, she does two hits worth of damage every time she hits with her hammer, and holding spin while jumping allows her to do a hammer smash that gains a little bit of height and forward momentum while spinning with her hammer before she comes down and smashes the ground, hitting all badniks within a certain range of her, perhaps the closest ones being hit by a circle of hearts that spawns around her and those further away taking less damage. She could also potentially launch herself even further than base form when hitting a spring with her hammer.

Metal: His base form is tweaked so that his V. Maximum Overdrive gives him a temporary speed debuff down to walking speed when he finishes using it, complete with a sparking effect to indicate the damage he has done to himself in the process. His base form hover also works the same as current Super Sonic's in that if he moves too slow, he drops like a rock. Pressing spin in the air allows him to charge up the V. Maximum Overdrive, with him falling slowly in the process, effectively it would be like a spindash in the air but without actually spinning. Releasing it before it's done charging would just give him a little speed and not the invincibility that comes with it. Charging it while moving would kill all speed, even while going fast. This could be done multiples times, but each time charging it would result in losing a bit more height.

After going Super, he gains the better hover that can only fall slowly, and he can use the V. Maximum Overdrive without worry of getting any kind of debuff in the process.

Fang: He gets on his bike. While on the bike, he cannot lose rings and gains a considerable boost to speed and jump height. However, the bike can only take a certain number of hits before it despawns. This could either be a strict number, or a health bar that could potentially be recharged with rings (Think of the mechs in SA2). The bike actually spends the 50 rings used to summon it, leaving the player with 0 if they only had 50 rings when they did so. This would not despawn the bike, but could result in the loss of points at the end of the level.
 
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Fang could probably just get something like Overwatch's High noon ultimate where you hold spin and he stands still for a while and locks on to every enemy in his vision but the twist here is that his rings drain per lock on. I can't imagine an actual super fang running around but I think giving him what is essentially a screen nuke on ring drain could suffice and it's built around his unique ability, which is his popgun.
 
I like those ideas. Though Fang's might be a bit complicated.

Fang could probably just get something like Overwatch's High noon ultimate where you hold spin and he stands still for a while and locks on to every enemy in his vision but the twist here is that his rings drain per lock on. I can't imagine an actual super fang running around but I think giving him what is essentially a screen nuke on ring drain could suffice and it's built around his unique ability, which is his popgun.

Alternatively, when he gets on his bike it mirrors his base stats aside from being able to take hits without him losing rings, either being a strict number or a health bar as I suggested before. He can move and shoot at the same time now, and enemies he shoots and destroys explode and take any nearby badniks out with them within a certain range.

This would effectively make the bike into a shield and a buff to the pop gun.
 
Can anyone give me the Simplified versions of the reasons why supers still arent in?

My understanding is that the devs consider them to make the characters too similar in gameplay, and as such opted to only allow them for characters other than Sonic and Metal via Pandora's Box and therefore the ability to save your progress locked off. Tails is the exception to this, an unintended mistake as far as I know in which he can't even transform via Pandora's Box.

The stance of the devs seems to be that it's not that they are against Supers entirely, but rather that they are thinking of alternatives ideas to make them different from each other, with them disabled by default in the meanwhile.
 
i dont see the reason why they are off by default. Even if they were just speed shoes and invincibility, they are better then just disabling them. Even if someone asked why they arent unique, they can just say they are working on a way to make them unique. Another thing,I still have the suspicion that tails's exclusion is the result of some sort of developer bias. Thank you for your response, time gear
 
Super already has a downside--it's called "you go literally so fast that platforming becomes way more challenging". Why does it need anything else?
 
Super already has a downside--it's called "you go literally so fast that platforming becomes way more challenging". Why does it need anything else?

I always thought the downside was that if you use the form too early, your haste would come back to bite you because it's easy to run out of rings only a minute or so after activating it, leaving you vulnerable with 0 rings. This in particular was always especially a downside in regards to bosses and minibosses in the classics, because they appeared at the end of each act with little to no rings to grab to keep up the form if you can't defeat the boss quickly. It was generally better to carefully hold onto as many rings as possible and then transform at the boss to cheese it and finish with as many rings still in your possession as possible for that score bonus.

The boss thing might not apply to SRB2, but running out of rings within the levels is certainly a possibility, especially the later zones such as ERZ.
 
I don't think implementing them drastically different from the official games would actually go over well. Sega got flack for just getting the ring drain wrong in Generations.
 
I don't think implementing them drastically different from the official games would actually go over well. Sega got flack for just getting the ring drain wrong in Generations.

That was just because the ring drain was way too high, not because it was different. If they had done something actually fun instead of killing your Super Form in like 16 and a half seconds (Even fewer if you used the autopath) they wouldn't have gotten nearly as much flak for it.
 
Super already has a downside--it's called "you go literally so fast that platforming becomes way more challenging". Why does it need anything else?

Because that's not a downside and the platforming in the first place isn't ever that hard until ERZ but it's never nothing you can't just float over as super sonic/Metal. The real downside to super is the ring drain so my idea was to apply that to metal sonic differently by making his focus on his boost mode and challenge the player to go through the stage a high speeds flawlessly. Mothing can take away their super form besides being reckless and crashing. something that as metal sonic specifically can be really easy to do if you're not paying attention. I'm not saying it's an amazing idea all i'm doing is suggesting an alternative to the run of the mill easy mode, invincible super form that sonic gets.
 
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