Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

Honestly if anyone is trying to make the case that specifically game balance is the reason not everyone can go Super, I have to call BS. As others before me have noted, that would make sense if it was only Sonic and there were no unlockable characters, since Sonic used to be the hardest character to use. He was rewarded for skilled play with speed the other characters had a hard time matching.

This is no longer the case. Now we have unlockable characters. One of these unlockable characters, Metal Sonic, is in his base form already the most brokenly overpowered character in the game. Despite this, he happens to be the only other character in the game aside from Sonic that can transform without using an addon or cheat.

Meanwhile, Amy, the new hardest character to use, gets nothing. Therefore, game balance is clearly not the reason. If it was, Amy would at least get a hammer upgrade or something for going to the trouble of getting the emeralds.

Canon is not the reason either. Metal Sonic's Super is complete fanon, meanwhile the two characters that have canonical Supers (Tails and Knuckles) can't transform.

Considering the direction this topic has moved in, I feel confident in saying it's not because of Supers being too speedy either, despite what Mystic has asserted. Myself and others have attempted to solve this problem via suggestion by altering what aspects of the characters are made "super", meanwhile some others have been open to the idea of experimenting with other ideas to maintain character variety. Despite this, the idea still appears to be being shot down.

The longer this goes on, the harder I find it to draw any other conclusion other than that the only reason Metal can go Super and none of the other Non-Sonic's can is personal preference on the devs part. I want to draw another conclusion. I have been trying to draw another conclusion. However, regardless of how much we try to be reasonable and compromise for a solution that works, it seems it will always be met with a firm "No." followed by a vague, non-answer explanation that feels like it's based on personal preference/playstyle, allusions to additional reasons that go without being detailed (apparently because it's 'not worth it'), and as far as I can tell via context clues this has been going on for ages now since long before the 2.2 update.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not intending this as a jab at anyone, nor am I trying to be passive aggressive. I apologize if it has started to appear that way. I just don't feel like the situation is being addressed properly at all. I'm not surprised in the slightest that this controversy has been going on so long if this is how it's been treated the whole time. Personally, I have actually only gotten more confused about the issue as time has gone on since I joined into the discussion around it.

I've stated this in this thread already, but it keeps being said otherwise, so to be clear: this is not about game balance. If it was about game balance super wouldn't be in the game at all. Super Sonic is absurdly overpowered.

It also has nothing to do with "canon", whatever fragile existence it may have at this point. I haven't played an official 3D Sonic game since Sonic Heroes, so whatever official lore exists is not remotely important to me. For what it's worth, I posted about the reason SEGA changed things themselves in one of the previous threads on this matter here: https://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=773518&postcount=87

The core, most important reason for not letting everyone go super is character diversity. This means that when you play through the game as one character, go "that was fun" and start a playthrough as another character, you get a genuinely different experience than you did in the first run. The standard super mechanics actively harm this and homogenize characters so that the runs will feel too similar.

Ikkarou Tatsuru said:

For one side of the argument that claims that the other is a vocal minority I was sure expecting to see more people springing up to defend their point. It's surprising that this argument would be kept alive for so long like this.

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"How can we be a vocal minority when the other side isn't posting nearly as much as we are?"

I'm not saying "vocal minority" as an insult. It's just the reality of it. The people who are on the other side are already happy and therefore have no reason to post in this thread. Posting hyperbolic statements about the argument or implying that the reasoning I'm providing is somehow not the real reason and just excuses is not constructive and needs to stop.

Mystic said:

The core, most important reason for not letting everyone go super is character diversity. This means that when you play through the game as one character, go "that was fun" and start a playthrough as another character, you get a genuinely different experience than you did in the first run. The standard super mechanics actively harm this and homogenize characters so that the runs will feel too similar.

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My question is this then: Let's go ahead and assume that this is true and Super Forms do indeed make characters too similar, and as such the reason for their exclusion is to make characters more unique. If this is the case, then why is it that suggestions that would allow for super forms without taking away from character uniqueness, whether that be changing the invincibility mechanics for specific characters, basing their Super Form around their character specific abilities, or both seem to be getting shot down?

If we keep operating under that same assumption, then wouldn't the more obvious solution be to ditch the "standard" Super mechanics for Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Fang rather than entirely strip away their ability to transform?

By not allowing them to transform, you are removing any and all reason for those characters to collect the Chaos Emeralds in single player at all. They get no reward. You might say "The Chaos Emeralds are meant to be an optional collectable, we have no intention of forcing players to collect them if they don't want to". However, I would counter that with what if they do want to? Should they not be rewarded for doing so? Moreover, what could you possibly reward them with that could rival the reward Sonic and Metal get for doing the same work other than a transformation?

As it is right now, every playable character in the game is entirely optional as well. That means for players who only care to play as, for example, Tails, they are treated unequally by the game than players who play as Sonic. This was a problem in Sonic 2. It was remedied in 3&K, and finally fixed in Mania.

Let's now entertain the other perspective: The perspective that Super Forms indeed do not interfere with character variety.

The argument you are making is that when a character goes Super, they will all play essentially the same. That is to say, they will go after rings and avoid using abilities that slow them down. Unfortunately, this is a really, really simplistic way of putting it.

Honestly even if you changed nothing and just gave everyone regular traditional Super Forms, Super Tails or Super Knuckles would play as differently from Super Sonic as Tails and Knuckles do from Sonic. Super Sonic can hover, but must maintain speed or he drops like a rock. He cannot gain height, cannot climb walls, and his double jump ability is the thok. Super Tails and Super Knuckles cannot hover, but still have access to the expanded mobility of flying, swimming, gliding and climbing. This means they can and likely will take pathways that Super Sonic simply cannot, providing a unique gameplay experience. Super Sonic cannot gain extra height off springs. Super Sonic cannot shoot enemies from a distance or coil up into a spring to bounce higher than a normal jump.

That is to say, each and every character can do things in their transformed state that Super Sonic cannot... Except Metal, who has a slightly better hover and no thok. The only real potential over Sonic he has is his speed boost.

So all your argument really tells me is that one of two things is true. Either 1. You have not designed the levels around each character having the option to take another path than Sonic properly (Which I know isn't true) or 2. You have not playtested Super Forms properly, unable to resist the urge to take Sonic's path and play through the levels just like him.

In either case, the problem is one with level design, and not with Super Forms themselves. If you want each playthrough to be unique, then make sure the levels are designed so that there are split pathways that the player can optionally take as characters who aren't Sonic so that even in their Super Form, they are having a different experience.

Design in shortcuts that Amy can reach by hammering a spring, but Sonic cannot reach. Put a pathway up at the top of a cliff that has a lower ledge stopping Knuckles from climbing up so you can only reach it with Tails. Put a pathway underground the main path that you can only get to if you use Amy's hammer or Fang's tail to bust through a crack in the ground or a plank of wood or something. Litter these alternate pathways with rings, item monitors, and even the occasional emblem. There are ways to make even traditional Super Forms work without need for modification.

Mystic said:

The core, most important reason for not letting everyone go super is character diversity. This means that when you play through the game as one character, go "that was fun" and start a playthrough as another character, you get a genuinely different experience than you did in the first run. The standard super mechanics actively harm this and homogenize characters so that the runs will feel too similar.

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I want to ask something completely unrelated to this debate (I don't care about Super at all really. I never use it).

Does this imply that Metal Sonic will be differentiated more in future versions of the game? Right now he feels pretty redundant compared to the other 5 characters.

Mystic said:

The core, most important reason for not letting everyone go super is character diversity. This means that when you play through the game as one character, go "that was fun" and start a playthrough as another character, you get a genuinely different experience than you did in the first run. The standard super mechanics actively harm this and homogenize characters so that the runs will feel too similar.

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You claim it homogenizes characters, but I only see that in the sense that they all get a similar reward of invincibility and super speed, which arguably isn't enough to be an issue. Tails still has an ability Sonic does not get, and still has the added benefit that not even Super Sonic can give Sonic, the ability to go up. Similarly, Knuckles, Amy, and Fang all have different routes they still have to take regardless so they still don't give you the same experience as Sonic. At the worst, super would trivialize Amy and Fang's unique abilities, but that's when, instead of just axing the ability to go super, you tack abilities onto it that make the Super version worth using for more than just it's invincibility. Fang could start using bombs, or have more opportunities to shoot, maybe even just shoot faster. Amy can just break spikes by running into them, a bigger radius for the Hammer.
The issue of Super forms didn't stop S3K from being one of the most popular classic games, it didn't stop people from replaying and enjoying the games, it's still fondly remembered to this day. We're trying to find solutions to something that was never really a problem in the first place. Is this what the people want or is this what the development team wants?

Mystic said:

I posted about the reason SEGA changed things themselves in one of the previous threads on this matter here

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Something that Mania completely ended up invalidating. Everyone got a Super form, even the new characters, even Tails without Super Emeralds. Might I add no one had an issue with it either, if anything, people actively liked that everyone else could go Super after so long.

Mystic said:

I'm not saying "vocal minority" as an insult. It's just the reality of it. The people who are on the other side are already happy and therefore have no reason to post in this thread.

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Dude WHAT, that's not how it works. Just because people aren't saying anything does not mean they don't have their own opinions on the matter. You have people that aren't saying anything because they might not feel like they'll make a difference, you might have people not saying anything because we already have a lua for super forms, you might have people not saying anything because they just decided to accept the decision even if its not what they truly want. We don't know if it's a vocal minority or not, we don't have the raw statistics to state that.

Let me reverse the question: Who would have an issue if everyone was given Super Forms?

I've been part of the fandom since 1996, and I have seen heaps of criticism (much of it justified or understandable) toward the classic games and Mania. I haven't once seen anyone complain about every character having a super form in them. Maybe some SRB2 fans have a problem with it, but the wider Sonic fandom really does not.

Mystic said:

The core, most important reason for not letting everyone go super is character diversity. This means that when you play through the game as one character, go "that was fun" and start a playthrough as another character, you get a genuinely different experience than you did in the first run. The standard super mechanics actively harm this and homogenize characters so that the runs will feel too similar.

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This is why nearly everyone is in support of nonstandard super mechanics. Something to keep them diverse. I haven't really seen anyone clamoring to keep super forms all homogeneous.

Puppyfaic said:

Yes.

Being over-powered is fun.

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Thus also the appeal of HMS123311 being brought back in 2.1. That and him being a community in-joke.

Anyway, as for the argument with super forms, I do want to point out something I saw with Mystic's post about super forms in actual SEGA made games.

Mystic mentions that characters are given super forms if they are rival characters to Sonic, but then are taken away once they are no longer a rival to Sonic.

Yet... Shadow, a character who really isn't a rival to Sonic anymore, still has a super form. We don't see it often in games anymore ever since SEGA seemingly thought we only wanted to play Sonic and Classic Sonic, but nothing has said he no longer has it. To me it seems to be that SEGA just gives super to Sonic, and only a few select others if they have as big of a roll in the story as Sonic, whether they are a rival or not. This even works with Mania in the mix. Outside of Egg Reverie and the whole Sonic Forces connection, all the playable characters have the same bearing on the story. The only exception are Mighty and Ray, who may be non-canon to the original Mania story as far as I know, but they ARE canon and just as important to the Encore story, as minimal and borderline non-existent as it may be.

I also want to say about Metal getting a super form: I don't know how we should consider the cannonicity of the IDW comics or the animations on youtube to the games, but I believe IDW and Sonic Mania Adventures had an actual Super Metal Sonic (Well, Super Neo Metal Sonic in the IDW comics). Point is that it's not something we haven't seen in official Sonic media anymore. Hell, the only big difference visually between Super Metal in Mania Adventures and SRB2 is in SRB2 he gains a golden palette similar to that of Super Sonic, while in Mania Adventures he just has a gold particle effect and a faint glow around him, but he himself remains blue.

Overall, I don't want to say my opinion is the correct one, as while I disagree with the "character diversity" argument, nor the "Only Sonic and his rival get super" thing, I do believe there may be a reason I am unaware of that makes Sonic and Metal only getting super forms, but: I personally believe everyone should have super forms. Do I believe they should work the same for everyone? No. In fact I would like to see some of the 2.1 super forms stuff come back, like multiablility for glide and double jump characters, infinite flight for flight characters, etc. Likewise, adding stuff so as to not invalidate Amy and Fang's normal playstyle, like a rapid aim/fire for Fang or sending out more hearts with a wider arc for Amy, would be great.

That being said I would much rather see the campaign get finished (both with the planned ERZ revamps, a full RVZ, and any other planned zone that isn't started yet being added, like how I've seen whispers about the ideas of DCZ and GEZ not being completely scrapped yet), or even any other overhauls that may be needed before a bunch of work is sunk into super forms.

The main gripe I have with the "Vocal Minority" argument is that it operates under the assumption that people who are perfectly fine with Supers not being a thing for most characters won't make their voice heard on the matter because they already have what they want. Logically, this doesn't consistently work. Especially when threads like this exist in which people are making solid arguments in favor of Supers being included.

If someone was stoically against Supers for everyone being a thing, wouldn't they feel threatened by all the people speaking up in threads like this and make their own voice heard in an attempt to keep things how they are? In fact, you would think the controversy would be a lot less one sided than it seems to be in these threads. I hardly see anyone saying that the characters shouldn't be able to go Super, and most of the people making their voice heard are in favor of them being implemented in some form or another.

There's also technically already a sort of poll for the issue, even if most people haven't realized it. The views counter on VL_super-v2.lua. At the time of me making this post, it's currently sitting at almost 150 "views", each of those can be safely assumed to be a download. That's a lot more people going out of their way to enable Super Forms than are making their voices heard in this thread.

time gear said:

If someone was stoically against Supers for everyone being a thing, wouldn't they feel threatened by all the people speaking up in threads like this and make their own voice heard in an attempt to keep things how they are? In fact, you would think the controversy would be a lot less one sided than it seems to be in these threads. I hardly see anyone saying that the characters shouldn't be able to go Super, and most of the people making their voice heard are in favor of them being implemented in some form or another.

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I don't want all characters to have Supers. But I don't really feel that strongly about it, so I'm fine with deferring to the people who care more.

I don't like Metal having a Super form but no one else though. It should either be just Sonic or everyone.

time gear said:

There's also technically already a sort of poll for the issue, even if most people haven't realized it. The views counter on VL_super-v2.lua. At the time of me making this post, it's currently sitting at almost 150 "views", each of those can be safely assumed to be a download. That's a lot more people going out of their way to enable Super Forms than are making their voices heard in this thread.

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Just because someone downloaded a file doesn't mean they agree with the sentiment; it just means they're at least curious and want to mess around with it. More importantly, though: the numbers just don't add up.

For this release, we broke our record for forum users online on the same day, at 578. Remember that this only counts people who actually registered. There are generally about ten times more unregistered views than registered, not counting search engine spiders. I don't have current usage statistics because we now have way better distribution methods that don't keep track, but back in the 2.0 era we calculated that our game was downloaded hundreds of thousands of times per month. Even assuming all of the 148 downloads of that file are all people that feel strongly about this issue, that's still a tiny percentage of the people viewing the forums, and an even tinier percentage of the people playing the game.

The statistics here simply don't support that argument. You all need to stop trying to claim the support of the invisible majority here. I am not claiming that many people wouldn't like everyone to go super, even possibly a significant majority. I am claiming that by not allowing everyone to go super we are making our game better. Yet again, here is a copy-paste from the last several times someone used this argument on this exact topic:

Fans don't really know exactly what they want, and many of them want contradictory things. I'll take a few examples of things a large, vocal portion of our fanbase desperately wants:

1. Homing attack and light speed dash as Sonic, always.
2. Shadow the Hedgehog as a default playable character.
3. Savestates.
4. More linear stages.
5. Super/Hyper forms for everybody.

I'd personally say that all of these things would make a WORSE game by their addition. If we listened to our fanbase we'd have a game with features for everybody that's fun for nobody. Just look at the official SEGA Sonic games for a perfect example of this. By trying to appeal to everybody, they're making games that appeal to almost nobody.

At the end of the day we are making the decisions that we think will make the best possible game, not the decisions that will make you in particular the happiest.

Mystic said:

Fans don't really know exactly what they want, and many of them want contradictory things. I'll take a few examples of things a large, vocal portion of our fanbase desperately wants:

1. Homing attack and light speed dash as Sonic, always.
2. Shadow the Hedgehog as a default playable character.
3. Savestates.
4. More linear stages.
5. Super/Hyper forms for everybody.

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Personal opinion:

1&2: I wouldn't mind Shadow being added, but I'd rather him be a bonus unlockable like Amy, Fang, and Metal. As for homing thok and LSD, I think those would be best on Shadow to differentiate him from Sonic. Sonic is fine as he is. I'm just kinda of the opinion that more base game characters isn't bad as long as they have something to make them unique, like despite being quite close, Sonic and Metal still play differently.

3&4: I don't think I've ever seen anyone call for these, and I completely agree they would lower the game quality if implemented. I want to explore, not be funneled down a linear path, like in Forces, and savestates just seem to be something people use to try and save scum to avoid losing lives, which removes the challenge from things.

5: As I stated in a previous post, I would love Super for everyone, but I also would like some changes for certain abilities to help keep them different from Super Sonic (multiability for double jump and glide characters, infinite flight for fliers, etc. like in 2.1, plus maybe stuff for Amy and Fang to buff their attacks while super). I just think finishing the campaign and such holds higher priority. As for hyper, I wouldn't mind it being added as an easter egg, maybe as part of pandora's box or something

It's worth remembering that chaos emeralds at their base are simply the "rare gems with mystical powers" trope. It's even treated as generically in Sonic 1, with Sonic using the chaos emeralds to... spread life or some shit in Green Hill. We can dispute how "standardized" someone's super like Knuckles or Tails should be (the canonicity needs to be either embraced or discarded before anything else), but there's no reason why a character like Amy or Fang has to follow the standard super formula. All that's really necessary to match player expectations, in their case, is to grant some reward or powerup that is befitting to their character and playstyle.

The main point of contention seems to be that players are not feeling rewarded for collecting all emeralds as their preferred character. Mystic's concern is that granting standard super to everybody comes at the risk of homogenizing each character's campaign experience. This appears to be causing some friction, as his hardline stance is "homogenous supers are the worst possible outcome for the game" whereas the hardline stance of others is "each character needs to be able to transform". It's important to note that neither of these stances exclude the possibility of each character receiving transformations that are very distinct from each other.

In the interest of finding common ground, rather than disputing the validity of "all super" in a general sense, it's more productive for us discuss and debate what kind of all-emeralds reward/powerups we think would be appropriate for each character. While I don't agree that Knuckles and Tails closely matching their S3&K supers would hurt the game, I'm perfectly content with us experimenting with their transformations for those characters to create something that accentuates their gameplay styles.

CobaltBW said:

In the interest of finding common ground, rather than disputing the validity of "all super" in a general sense, it's more productive for us discuss and debate what kind of all-emeralds reward/powerups we think would be appropriate for each character. While I don't agree that Knuckles and Tails closely matching their S3&K supers would hurt the game, I'm perfectly content with us experimenting with their transformations for those characters to create something that accentuates their gameplay styles.

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I think a big issue is that people have been trying to put forth these kinds of suggestions in this topic already, and they have all been ignored, so the impression that many of us have is that there is no compromise to be found and we have no choice but to cede to the developers' whims. I'm okay with everyone going super S3K/Mania style, but I'm also very interested in discussing alternate Chaos Emerald abilities that don't involve invincibility or super speed. Unfortunately, the atmosphere here is that some devs are apparently not willing to discuss this either, so a lot of this discussion makes some of us feel powerless in our suggestions.

There have recently been backroom discussions on what kind of transformations might be best to pursue if we were to take initiative on giving them to everyone. So, it's certainly not out of the question, though it may seem that way due to poor communication on our part.

It's more just that the extremists in any group drown out the moderates. It's a common problem in basically any argument.

That's good to know. Even if the team decides not to go through with it in the end, it's reassuring that solutions are being considered.


Apologies, by the way, if I had made assumptions on how development works in this topic. I try to make an effort to understand development decisions whether or not I agree with them, and that gets me mixed up when all I have to go by are the devs' word in a public thread such as this.

time gear said:

If someone is skilled enough to collect the emeralds before finishing their first playthrough, it's still not a cheat because they earned that transformation and have the skill necessary to complete the campaign already anyway.
It's not like anyone would be forced to use the forms either. If you don't want them, just don't use them. The same logic doesn't work the other way around. Just because you don't want to use them doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there for others.

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I disagree with the first part. Playing seven Nights Stage is not anything remotely similar to mastering the main stages. Anybody exploring enough as Tails or Knuckles can easily get many tokens on the first stages and then breeze through the latest ones. The game is already easy enough to play as them, but it seems you need invincibility too? Super makes at least those two character really broken.


About the second part, my problem is not that I don't want to use something that others want, is that taking note of all the recent suggestions, most of them end up being "make the game easier". The game has been out for less than a month, and most complaints just want an easier game: From complaining the Special Stages are too hard, to please make the camera automatic even if that means making the entire level layout easier, to RVZ, ERZ and BCZ being too hard and needing a nerf...


Most modern games end up like that, because these kind of people complaint and don't play the games they have BOUGHT. So it ends up affecting me, because then games get shorter and/or easier, so I end up having more boring games, because people don't have patience. So yeah, it ends up affecting me, because many people don't get that if all these suggestions were listened, we would end up with a short and easy game. The game currently isn't that hard or that long. In fact, level design is really good and most challenges are well done. When you get super with an already overpowered character, you just throw all of that out the window. And it's sad.

Mystic said:

Fans don't really know exactly what they want, and many of them want contradictory things. I'll take a few examples of things a large, vocal portion of our fanbase desperately wants:
1. Homing attack and light speed dash as Sonic, always.
2. Shadow the Hedgehog as a default playable character.
3. Savestates.
4. More linear stages.
5. Super/Hyper forms for everybody.
I'd personally say that all of these things would make a WORSE game by their addition. If we listened to our fanbase we'd have a game with features for everybody that's fun for nobody. Just look at the official SEGA Sonic games for a perfect example of this. By trying to appeal to everybody, they're making games that appeal to almost nobody.
At the end of the day we are making the decisions that we think will make the best possible game, not the decisions that will make you in particular the happiest.

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^ So much this.

Puppyfaic said:

Yes.
Being over-powered is fun.

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Then download an overpowered mod. Done.

Jake said:

I think a big issue is that people have been trying to put forth these kinds of suggestions in this topic already, and they have all been ignored, so the impression that many of us have is that there is no compromise to be found and we have no choice but to cede to the developers' whims. I'm okay with everyone going super S3K/Mania style, but I'm also very interested in discussing alternate Chaos Emerald abilities that don't involve invincibility or super speed. Unfortunately, the atmosphere here is that some devs are apparently not willing to discuss this either, so a lot of this discussion makes some of us feel powerless in our suggestions.

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First comment of Mystic on first page:

Mystic said:

Something we've occasionally discussed in the past is giving the other characters completely different perks for getting all the emeralds, but this isn't a high priority so even if we decide we want to do that, it'd be a long time before we could implement it. In the meantime, though, I really don't want to ruin the character variety SRB2 has, and thus, I strongly disagree with the idea of adding super to other characters in vanilla. If you'd like to mess around with super as other characters, you'll need to mod the game.

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No, the developers aren't ignoring you. The game has been in development for over 20 years. Getting from 2.1 to 2.2 alone has taken 5+ years. Many of the top complaints have been addressed on 2.2:
- Metal Sonic fight too hard: Race gets easier and is divided in two parts.
- Bosses being too hard after all of ERZ: Now they are a different zone so the game saves.
- Controls were awful on gamepad: Now the default gamepad options are quite good and will get better after feedback.


Super forms for everybody will get added when developers think of a way that makes the game better. If they don't come up with a good way, they won't do it. No, they don't have to obey you or me. They are doing this in their free time and they are already doing an awesome job. Point me to any other 3D fangame with so much content (and so much original content). Developing things isn't easy, and while you may think all of this is easy, they will need many hours just to do this. And they will do it if they have time and good reasons to do it.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that these ideas are easy, nor are we unappreciative of the devs to begin with.

This is a heated debate, but I don't think anyone is acting like they are entitled to have their wants fulfilled, just expressing why they think its the right thing to do.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it anyway. Mystic, Cobalt, and the other devs who chimed in mentioning the ideas of non-standard perks, be they super forms or something else, sounds really promising to me. I hope something comes of it.

Knuckles MetalMind said:

First comment of Mystic on first page:

No, the developers aren't ignoring you.

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I didn't see (or I forgot about) that post, my bad.