Control feedback thread

Overall, I feel like if there was a new thing that replaced analog mode that could capture it's good qualities while also making up some of these improvements, I think that would be a more than competent translation of that gameplay into something not only I but many others would dig as their way of controlling this dope-ass game. Sure, it wouldn't quite be the same level of accuracy as the standard controls offer, and maybe some would still find it inferior, but that's why SRB2's versatile control options have always been a good thing, yeah? :)
This is the intent of the thread. Analog mode is god-awful, but clearly there are parts of analog that appeal to people. It'd be way better to add control options to allow for directional abilities or some kind of mediocre automatic camera than it would be to keep that broken implementation, but we need to know why people are willingly choosing it. Thank you for your well-thought out feedback.
 
I choose analog mode because it makes the game more fun as you can move way more fluidly.
I just played through a run (albeit with Tails) with 2.1 and beat it (without bothering with the emeralds) and had a great time aside from the much harder Egg Rock Zone Act 2 which is massively longer than what the version in 2.2 is.

Then I tested record attack with Sonic in GFZ1 using analog first and got 18 seconds then tried without analog enabled and struggled to get 20 seconds and got stuck on some walls.
It took a lot more fidgeting with the keyboard when analog mode was disabled.
 
I've played the game with trigger controls now. Beat Aerial Garden as Sonic, too. In particular, I swapped the triggers and mapped Jump to R and Spin to L, because I noticed I was a lot more likely to accidentally flex my right finger than my left, and it's far safer to only risk an accidental jump.

It is, without a doubt, a control scheme I would prefer to how I used to play. Having direct control of the camera and the player at all times means, with the right reflexes, I can theoretically respond to *any* situation and not get overwhelmed-- it's down to my reflexes and not the situation. At first, I had some difficulty turning the camera fast enough for my movement, but luckily there is an option somewhere for camera sensitivity. I brought that up a few notches, and then tweaked it further with playtime to where it is now. It works. And it's adjustable!

I did still have *one* death thanks to trying to speed thok backwards. The tutorial did specifically warn about that, at least? But. I can echo the others in this thread and say, yeah, it's alarming when it happens. Analog Mode had given many of us experience with instant character turn-around, which is particularly useful for the diehard platformer stages. Now, maybe we risk jumping out because we know we have the ability to thok backwards, and that's no longer true, in which case errors are inevitable and playstyles will change. But then that begs the question: What kind of Sonic game do the developers intend here? Is this a Sonic game where you *can* jump off a platform and then correct your mistake, or is this a Sonic game where you had better pay attention to your surroundings before you get there?

..putting it like that, yeah, I can understand leaving that ability out. The early stages give plenty of leeway as it is, and the later stages want you to be paying attention.
 
The camera in analog was a big sticking point for me at first so I did almost just, switch back to the regular controls and try to wrangle them - but the camera speed option affects analog too, so now my shoulder trigger rotation shifts the camera at a speed I'm happy with. Only major issue I'm having is the re-centre button not working. For me actually, camera is partially *why* I use analog - because I much prefer having orbital camera switched on. That and I don't like the thok being camera centric.

It's definitely not perfect at all, because bosses can be a chore with it for sure (and Tails Assist is obviously a bit busted with it since it wasn't made with it in mind), but I like the option overall.

Either way, I think removing options just "because we said so" is short-sighted. It's already out of the way to the layman, you have to be actively looking for it now - you lose nothing by having options, and the idea that people finding a control scheme they're happy with is somehow detracting from the game as a whole is absurd. I wouldn't remove it until an actual alternative is in place, because I'm honestly not seeing the world-ending issue with it. Azoo said what I'd say a lot more fluently, but I wanted to throw in two cents.
 
I'm not entirely sure how useful my input is (as I'm entirely a KB+M, non-Analog user), but my past with 1.09.4's defaults has resulted in me making an interesting control scheme which allows me to quickly switch between two playstyles at once. I'm not sure how useful this would be for other players, but I have muscle memory with this at this point.

First, the "main" style, as it were. This one I mostly use now and built around my secondary style.

WASD - Strafe movement (or, I guess, just regular movement now)
Mouse - Looking around (obviously. Vertically locked in 3rd-person, I use 1st-person to look up and down.)
Right Click - Jump
E - Spin

Not quite the 2.2 defaults, but they serve me well. I'm able to quickly move around, easily control my camera to look around. I do have a secondary control scheme, which used to be my primary control scheme thanks to 1.09.4. It's specifically built for keyboard-only play, but doesn't involve Analog Mode at all. Because of how I've set up my controls, they work off the same inputs so I don't need to rebind anything whenever I move my hands.

Arrow Up/Down - Move forwards/back
Arrow Left/Right - Turn camera
A/D - "Strafe" Left/Right (aka: Move Left/Right)
PgUp/PgDown - Look Up/Down
X - Jump
Z - Spin

Yet, I still feel confident enough with these controls to do Egg Rock Zone without that many deaths. It's probably the muscle-memory I've acquired over the many years. Plus, even with these controls, I feel like I can aim my speed thoks with relative ease. This control scheme also feels way more comfortable to use during the NiGHTS special stages. I find myself naturally moving my hands to my arrow keys whenever I start one.

Do I recommend this control scheme? Eh, probably not. Couldn't say why though, as it's served me very well.

I did try Analog Mode before in 2.0 or 2.1 (mostly from curiosity, more than anything), but I found the camera to be pretty awful and it was difficult to control. With an improved camera, maybe it could be better - I particularly like what Fickleheart cooked up on the previous page.
 
My first post yay, I wouldn't leave this thread without me arguing on it.

I elaborated my message before reading CobaltBW's because I was waiting for my account to activate, but basically I agree with everything he said:

These days I have been arguing about bringing analog control back because it was my main control scheme in 2.1 and that would accommodate new players. But I fell on the devs experiment of forcing analog mode players to get out of comfort zone and try to work with the default control scheme and I have been practicing it and loving it since I set jump/spin on the bumpers and I can really feel the improvement.

I understand the devs intentions and that this is the optimal way to play, specially because of what pv2 (I think that's his name) said yesterday on discord, there are people that stick to analog mode and won't get out of their comfort zone to see how good the default can be when practiced, and that can happen to many new players.

But still, I don't think that's enough reason to remove or even hide it, because it accommodates many people like me that comes from 3D platformers and play with a gamepad instead of giving up by trying the "tank controls" (which the tutorial and directionchar in 2.2 already solves some of that) or for those that don't want to play controlling the camera manually most of the time, I only had an issue with analog mode which is when moving to the side and trying to control the camera to the other side and the camera would keep on fighting in which side it would go, it was more frustrating in bosses. But I see some potential for improvement for the camera in analog mode for it to be more viable and accommodating, because honestly it isn't so bad: https://youtu.be/0PxKv2ck500

This is a video from my channel from when I only used analog mode as my control scheme and in this video I didn't even manually moved the camera at all, it felt great and fluid. It's so good to turn while the camera follows you, letting more circular movement without having to manually control the camera.

The "analog control" name could also be misleading for some people imo, in my case I thought that it was a "workaround" to make controls better for gamepads with analog sticks, because of that I would wanna suggest to bring "analog mode" back by separating it into two options: Auto Turn Camera (Off/On) and Hability Direction (based on the camera direction/based on the character direction).
And when changing its options the game would warn the player giving reasons to not change it (because it was for those good reasons which people told me on discord that made me practice the default controls). The devs could even make these options be unlocked by completing the tutorial.
I think it's better than hiding/removing without explaining when many people already liked it.

Also thanks CobaltBW for asking analog mode players for feedback the other day instead of being rude telling us to "quit" or "just use keyboard & mouse". And you, Rob, for bringing this opportunity for us to give direct feedback.
 
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I'll preface anything I have to say here with how I have always used mouse and keyboard for SRB2, and I think that control setup is absolutely the best one for this game, offering quick movement and precision at all times. I've used mouse and keyboard since 2006 and also I've bounced off of analog controls several times despite sincerely giving that control scheme a shot on multiple occasions.

(and my points are generally going to be regurgitated from what I said in the #controls-debate channel on the discord server, so they are here for a clearer record of my thoughts)

On the discord server, I brought up that I felt that relying so heavily on Keyboard & Mouse as the default control scheme would cause accessibility issues for people without a mouse, such as laptop users with a touchpad. However several people in the discussion confirmed they were able to play the game just fine with the default keyboard tank control setup. They certainly won't be pushing any time attack world records like that they did admit, but it is good to know my initial concerns were unfounded there.

I've gotten some family and friends to try out SRB2 2.2 who haven't played SRB2 before at all, and generally I've observed some initial confusion about the controls, or just difficulty playing, which then becomes rapidly improved to competency with mouse and keyboard during THZ1. GFZ right now seems to be doing its job of teaching people how to play and giving them a chance to experiment then improve. I've also observed that the GFZ boss is doubling as a 'can you strafe' exam for new players trying to deal with the pinch phase, which is why I think I've seen improvements occur in THZ1 because those players had to get to grips with the mouse and keyboard controls more intimately to beat that boss.
This is very much a good thing though, it shows that mouse and keyboard works for a new player set up if they're willing to try out.

I think a toggleable option in the controls menu to allow abilities such as Sonic's thok or Knuckles' glide to go in the direction the character is facing, rather than the direction the camera is pointing in, would go a small way to alleviate some of the issues people are having with a lack of analog control.
 
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My only real complaint about the current controls is thok / glide not going in the direction the character is facing, feels disorienting. I gave it some time but just couldn't get used to it so I switched Character Angle option to "Camera", my problem with it is that I'm very used to having the character thok / glide in the direction they're facing so I'd like to see the character face the same direction the camera is facing while the character is rolling in air so it at least gives us a better idea where thok / glide is directed or aimed at. though I doubt that's going to make a big difference.
 
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Is there really complaints about the controls this much? I literaly see just 1 difference compared to 2.1, the characters align to the movement so it gives that 8-directional movement rotation, and that's it, the thok, gliding, and flight remain the same as well. I've never really used analog since it's just harder to control so I'm kinda glad it's gone. We're just stuck with the default control scheme which is totally fine by me.
 
It seems like mothership-phoning metrics was exactly built for this kind of thing. Aside from ideological issues, GDPR has kind of torpedoed being able to automatically poll all users, anyway.

I use WASD+mouse for 1st person multiplayer, and keyboard-only ('Arrow keys+'/' for lack of a better description) for 3rd person views. Yes, I am a crotchety old fart. Stop rolling your eyes.
In fact, I think it's impossible to perfectly replicate my control scheme in 2.2. I've been able to get it to work well for Sonic & Tails, but gliding & climbing with Knuckles, plus the minecart, still requires specific use of the strafe keys. I will say though that I love the autobrake, and the player angle facing the camera. I do wish the abilities didn't use the camera angle for direction, though.

You're going to look at me like my head is screwed on backwards, but people complaining about the control scheme here is not the problem itself, it is a symptom. "Yes, whatever SSN, go back to your retirement home. Your dementia is setting in again." The problem is that the level designers are playing the game using the speedrunner-tuned FPS controls to play the single player campaign. That control scheme, as stated before by STJr, gives you the ultimate level of precision, and for that, they are absolutely correct. What they've forgotten though is that it also takes a lifetime to master...many of these folks are now younger than SRB2 itself and have had the luxury of developing their skills at playing the game from the cradle. Much like well-founded scientific observations of it being easier to learn a language as a small child than an adult, these folks that have 'grown up' using the scheme and it is their 'first language', so to speak. For example, despite not playing Doom for quite a long time, I picked it up again for a short bit a few months ago and still felt pretty comfortable with the original Arrow+Ctrl+Alt+Space controls. It's not because that scheme is particularly good, but it's because I grew up with it.

Alright, so there's the explanation. So why is it an issue that the level designers use the control scheme of ultra-precision? It's because that scheme, due to its precision, artificially lowers the difficulty of the game. Someone else playing the game using analog, or the (seemingly non-existent) original controls will encounter a MUCH higher difficulty level. Honestly, I would not have been able to SURVIVE getting through most of the new stages without playing as Tails. It was so hard; various parts weren't fun, just cheap. Arriving at Egg Rock Zone felt like I could exhale and take it easy. I can elaborate more about what I found cheap elsewhere.. I'm digressing with the topic at hand.

Half of the reason I continued to use my crappy control scheme for SP is that I knew it artificially handicapped me and counteracted the years of experience I had playing the game and being able to anticipate what to expect next. I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but I'd recommend the level designers play their maps during design using a control scheme that may not be the most comfortable for them. If you're building your maps while playing it like a speedrunner, you're building it for just 1% of your audience.
 
Honestly, my thing is, is that the default control scheme isn't quite **MY** preference, but it's the majority, and that's okay, but...

Rather than 100% "appealing" to those whom felt negatively about the controls, why not just keep everything as optional as it was before, if not just improve it?

I mean, heck, if not that, then make it so that there's an option for those whom feel for it, that the camera will automatically turn when moving left and right..!

I've noticed the pros and the cons to both modes, and feel like some sort of convergence between the two would literally result in the ultimate control that would make both players feel at home regardless of what setup they initially came from.

Analog's auto turning and character direction based actions combined with the Directionchar's smooth right stick/mouse based camera turning would make the game a whole lot better for the controller player side.

The auto turn and directional actions would of course be optional towards those oriented toward the standard form of play, just like directionchar.

Also, knuckles greatly benefits from "analog" mode, give gliding with it a try, feels really nice.
 
The biggest gripe that I have with the controls is that there's no option to swap the strafing and turning controls when gliding as Knuckles.

Note that I play with a DualShock 4 (a PlayStation 4 controller, comparable to Xbox 360/One controllers as I don't use the gyro-/tilt-controls nor the touchpad).


For keyboard and mouse play, yes, A and D to strafe slightly while gliding feels good, as one can just easily move the mouse to change the full gliding angle... but for gamepad play with a face button for jumping (and probably keyboard-only play, too), the lack of an option for the above is bad.


It would be nice to change an option in the settings to make it so that the left stick can handle movement and the right stick can handle the camera in most cases, but swap the strafing and turning controls specifically while gliding, to make it easier to glide with a face button and still turn with a stick comfortably (while still giving an option to strafe in the glide, using the right stick, if necessary).


If the left stick is the main part of movement most of the time, it'd be nice (and more comfortable) if there was an option to have it like that while gliding, too.


Other details about my controlling experience:
In 2.1, I played with analog mode disabled, because that the "turn left/right" joystick axis makes the player move left/right instead of turning the camera in analog mode, and I wanted to be able to turn the camera with the right stick.
At that time, I played with face buttons for jumping and spinning, since that's what most platforming games do/did, and I had the bumpers/shoulder buttons for Lua scripts' custom actions.


Due to not using analog mode, I was already well at home for a lack of it when 2.2 launched, since I wasn't using it before.
Though after a whole playthrough as Tails and half a playthrough as Knuckles, I got tired of having to push my thumb against the Cross (equivalent to Xbox A) button to keep gliding while using the same thumb to move the right stick in order to change directions while gliding.
So, because that I got tired of that, I bound the right bumper (PlayStation R1 / Xbox RB) to jump and the left one to spin, so that I could more easily turn while gliding without it being uncomfortable, and then I kept playing like that, although with the face buttons still also bound to jumping/spinning as well.



Beyond that, my only other personal nitpicks about the controls are these:
- When spindashing, the spindash orients to the same angle as the camera, ignoring directional movement control input. This feels bad. It's fine to let it angle with the camera when not pressing a direction, but if I press leftwards while revving up a spindash, I want the spindash to launch me leftwards when I release it, not forwards.
- When standing still, the player will turn to face the same way as the camera, making it hard to turn the camera around them and view them from the front, which, this being a 3D platformer, should be possible if the player isn't in "lock-strafe" mode at all times (which they are not, as by default, they turn about when moving). This is basically just a cosmetic problem, though.
- Something else, but I've forgotten it while writing the rest of this post.
 
Okay, So I tried the gamepad out again using the dev's recommended layout, (Jump on bumper, twin sticks, no analog) Moving Sonic feels okay, not great but I could get used to it. What's prefect on WASD feels a little slippery on the stick but the biggest problem is the camera. The right stick is way too sensitive causing the camera to fly all over the place, especially when trying to look up and down. There's got to be a camera sensitivity slider like camera speed has so I can reasonably control my camera without getting seasick.
 
This is the intent of the thread. Analog mode is god-awful, but clearly there are parts of analog that appeal to people. It'd be way better to add control options to allow for directional abilities or some kind of mediocre automatic camera than it would be to keep that broken implementation, but we need to know why people are willingly choosing it. Thank you for your well-thought out feedback.

And thank you for listening.

As a final bit, I find myself agreeing a lot with SSNTails's post, and I feel like that raises another point: I don't mind playing a control scheme not attuned to 100% accuracy, because I'm not quite interested in being a super-pro speedrunner of the game. I just want to play a fun Sonic game, and I assume that's what most people want as well. lol

Maybe the control schemes can be separated by "simple" and "standard"? 'Simple' being the analog replacement that emphasizes easy control and is recommended for casual players, and 'standard' being the current controls which emphasize accuracy and is recommended for speedrunning. I dunno, just throwing darts here.
 
Actually going a bit more into analog mode, I didn't really like moving the mouse left or right moving the characters to said directions, if the mouse could rotate the camera isntead, that would improve the mode a lot.
Also I believe the issue with Knuckles gliding on spot could be fixed by just limiting the turning rotation? It seems to work fairly well in the current default control scheme, so I doubt it can be a huge problem now with analog.
 
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I think one of the biggest issues is that especially with the new directionchar update, if you hold back, you see your character run towards the camera, but unlike any 3D platformer, the camera will NEVER turn around.

Fixing that(make it optional preferably) or giving the player a 180-turnaround option like Resident Evil would be a big step. Most of us somehow mastered Sonic with Resident Evil controls, but I can't blame anyone for gravitating towards the more intuitive control scheme.

As for removing analog entirely....bad idea. Just print a message that analog mode is unsupported, incomplete, not recommended, yadayada, and keep it as a semi-hidden console command so new players will at least try to learn the normal controls.
 
The only thing I originally liked about the original analog mode was the fact that the animations lined up with the input I was giving. So Sonic would walk left if I held left. The control scheme hasn't "really" changed since 2.1 if I dual stick it, but the animations just feel important to me. The only real issue was the camera.


If I could recommend some kind of change, I don't think analog needs to be re-introduced. I think instead some form of automatic camera change after looking in a specific direction would be helpful, because the Analog camera isn't very good. Unlike the regular camera, old analog would get stuck at walls and made some form of platforming a nightmare because of horrible camera angles.


Though on the topic of control schemes, hold fly would be really nice. It's great that you all are going out of your way to introduce accessibility features like closed captioning but a "control feedback" I would very much like to push would be the ability to hold fly. I don't know about you, but I don't like getting a hand cramp trying to mash the jump button to fly, and a hold fly alternative would still allow people to mash if they want to, but not force others to do the same. I'm not asking for much, hold fly does not negatively affect the game. Especially so if it's only an option.
 
Do you think that somewhere in the future, you can implement the use of motion controls for the gamepads that have it embedded, like the Nintendo Switch Pro Controller?

I know it sounds strange, but I'm prettyy much a beginner with keyboard/mouse controls. Now I know, you can't deny the precision you can get with this control scheme, but the gamepad has always been a more approachable controller option. And given how you can make motion controls work with the camera along with an analog stick (take Splatoon for example), I was wondering if there's a way to make motion controls work for whatever gamepad comes with gyroscope. Unlike having to use the stick or messing up with the mouse, using motion controls for the camera would make for a much smoother experience for gamepad players, especially in online multiplayer.
 
+1 to adding options to tune camera turning speed

This isn't really related to the big Analog Mode debate people are having, however I feel like I should mention it now that we have a thread for this type of thing. I'm a KB-only player who doesn't use Analog Mode, which means having tank controls for the camera. The current speed is enough to get me by in most cases, but there's still the odd situation that leaves me wanting an option to make the camera turn quicker. Then there are CEZ2 and HHZ, which run like crap on my PC and leave me wanting an option to make the camera turn quicker.

+1 to Ability Angle option

Back when DirectionChar was ported to 2.1, I tried it out and I didn't like it at all. I didn't give it much further thought since it was going to be an option anyway, and left it at that. For 2.2, I decided to give it another fair shake, and as I was playing CEZ I realized what my problem with it is. It's as it's been mentioned many times at this point, how unnatural it feels to have Sonic facing the camera but shoot in the exact opposite direction when thokking. It just doesn't feel good. I've kept Character Angle set to Camera since then. I don't think I'll ever switch it back, but having the option might help bring people over from the old Analog Mode, since that seems to be the goal.

On that topic, I like the suggestions mentioned in this thread about rebranding the mode and separating its functions. Like I said, I'm not an Analog Mode player so my input on this matter is kinda limited, but from where I'm standing, that seems like the best way to handle Analog Mode going forward if the current implementation is problematic.
 
Okay, so having read through the thread myself, I'll add my own viewpoints as an analog main for years. For reference my setup is an Xbox 360 control, left stick movement, face buttons for jump and spin, and the left and right bumpers to move the camera left and right for small adjustments in a level.

For me analog mode is part muscle memory, but also has the natural feel for what a 3D platformer would be. The biggest thing I want out of analog mode, should it return, be revamped, or anything else, would be to focus on the fact that the camera follows the player automatically, this is the biggest thing for me when compared to the other current options in camera control/movement.

SSNTails makes this sort of thing clear, in that perhaps it is due to muscle memory, even if not the most optimized way to play. Which also does call back to the big thing with 2.2 being that the controls were very tailored for keyboard and mouse, which makes sense, but trying to adapt that setup with controller proves troublesome as other users have pointed out already.

Overall I would say the "confusion" for new players calls for a re-evaluation of what is causing that confusion for them and adjusting it by a means of making sure the options are clear to understand. Maybe that is renaming it from analog to something else like "auto follow camera" I would find that more useful than removing it all together.

I am fully aware of the stance some take in "more options is not always better" however I would say that if the option already exists, and it does not hinder in any way the other options or the game itself, why remove it entirely? Improve it sure, leave it hidden, fine. But to remove it entirely sounds like overkill when we have seen now many users with years of experience in this game to voice the concerns about the removal of analog showing despite the flaws, it is something actively used.
 
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