Dr.Pepper
Member
I know this has been discussed before, and hate digging it up out the grave myself, but many n00bs will never shut up about it and NEVER understand why it's impossible, primarily because they can't make any sense of the over-detailed reasons Logan gave us. :P Telling n00bs the DS doesn't have enough RAM or can't handle float-point math isn't enough. They will always come back with retarded reasons to feed their side of the arguement. We need a really loong list of reasons why a DS port is impossible to prevent this from happening again.
So here are a few 'dumbed down' reasons why a DS 'port' of SRB2 is virtually impossible and why it should never happen, covering all of the bases. This will cover reasons that have been stated before, and much of what I've learned on tthe subject.
1. 'wii cud us dsdoom rit?1'
a. DsDoom hasn't been actively worked on for more than a year, runs slower than dirt, doesn't even have primitive midi playback, and no filters for the obviously scaled down graphics. Basically, DSDOOM sucks, still think it's a decent base for a SRB2 port? Thought not...
b. Let's compare Dooms basic minimum requirements with SRB2's...
Doom: 30 mhz processor, 8mbs RAM
SRB2: 300 mhz processor, 32mb RAM
NDS's specs: Two 30 mhz arm7 processors, 4mbs RAM.
The only reason why the DSDoom port could happen is because the NDS obviously has enough power to handle a 13+ year old PC game, but only after the author spent whole months stripping down Doom's code to run within a meagor 4mbs RAM.
SRB2 requires ten times the processing power and 4 times the RAM that DOOM needs. I'm still surprised the Dreamcast port was possible, but even then, SRB2DC still lagged horribly, and had no sound, and that was just the Dreamcast port! If the most powerful console of its time couldn't handle a homebrew port of SRB2, how much less possible does a DS port look now?
c. Don't even think about mentioning RAM expansion carts, We could go on forever about how slow 8-bit RAM is. The RAM in any expansion cart just isn't fast enough, and most DS homebrew users have only slot-1 setups. So what is everyone supposed to do, buy a RAM cart, or throw away their R4 cards and get some other flash-cart?
It would be cheaper in to get a used PSP than pickup a (sometimes bulky) slot-2 homebrew cartridge just to play SRB2 on your DS! The extra expense of a RAM cart or M3 Pro might drive too many users away from the DS port. Most would rather hunt down a used PSP to play SRB2 on instead.
d. Currently, homebrew tools aren't that powerful yet anyway, it's going to be a long time before they can fully 'unlock' most of the DS's true power and capabilities.
If an SRB2DS port is EVER going to happen anytime soon, you'll need to get your greasy gloves on the official NDS DEV kit from Nintendo, which would truly take full advantage of the DS's hardware and always be far more powerful than any homebrew devkit. Although Nintendo will only provide the dev kit to real game developers (Example, Ubi-Soft, EA games...etc) with a stable financial history, anyone else can chew their own thumbs off.
e.If anything, a C 'port' can't happen, Lordis(creator and programmer of jEnisis DS) said himself that while developing jEnisis, all of the code in the C port of his java-based Genisis emulator had to be rewritten in ASM code, because it ran too slow on the DS. From what I understand, ASM is basically as close as you can get to a processor's inner workings without programming in binary, and nobody does that anymore. :P
In other words, SRB2 can't be 'ported' to the DS, because the C code would have to be completely rewritten just to suit the arm7's architecture, to get any real speed at all.
Now who do you think is going to be stupid enough to spend months, even years becoming familiar enough with the DS's inner workings just to port a single game to a specific platform, AND work on it without getting payed? Count me out. :P
f.'we culd hav a framscip mod, tat wuld halp, rite?'
Wrong, the DS hardware isn't capable of frame skipping last I checked. Besides, Sonic is all about speed, losing even a few frames per second would make SRB2 nearly impossible to control at high speeds.
g.we culd has a pagefile on CF card, tat'd mak up 4 noe ram rite?1
Read/write speeds of flash memory is even slower than RAM carts, I think? It would take forever to perfect that kind of memory management on the DS, because the game has to load/unload bits of unused/used data into/from the pagefile constantly. Playing SRB2 like this would mean spending whole minutes for levels to load or reload if you die, and it would burn out your microCF card in a few weeks anyway. (because of the constant reading/writing, obviously.)
2.Let's just say STjr was able to get their hands on Nintendo's official devkit, what would the SRB2 DS experience be like? Horrible I think! Why do I believe that? Here's why:
a.The DS has a screen resolution of 256x192 pixels on both screens, while DOOM's screen resolution is 320x200. The DS's resolution is pretty close to DOOM's, but as any DSDoom player will tell you, the scaled down graphics are very blocky and makes small text very hard to read. SRB2 is already blocky enough at 320x200 and lots of detail is lost. It would look even worse on the DS (because SRB2 would have to scale down its 320x200 resolution to fit in the DS's screen), maybe even too bad to tell rings or enemies apart in close range, except by their color. xD
The only way to work around the blocky software renderer would be to create a new hardware graphics renderer coded specifically for the DS's video hardware. But as we have seen with SRB2's OpenGL mode, it would lead to new and serious graphical glitches, constant crashing...etc Even with lots of effort, it would never be perfect, or stable.
b. Even if wifi was possible, you wouldn't be able to join the same games as PC players obviously, and it would lag worse than a PC with a dial-up connection, I bet.
c. you can pretty much forget multiplayer altogether, it would suck on the DS anyway, especially when trying to tell your team mates apart from the other team, because of the crappy resolution. 'lik dud wher r u?//!/?!' Lots of users would complain about the touch-screen controls for mouse-look too. I myself hated MPH's touch-screen controls and would have sold my copy if it weren't for the 'dual-hand mode'. Why couldn't those freakin' idiots at Retro Studios put the main view on the bottom screen, and used the Select button for switching weapons? That would have made more since, to me anyway.
d.NIGHT's mode would never happen, do I need to say why. :P
e.because of the great effort it would take to make SRB2 run on the DS, WADs probably wouldn't work, at least not without converting them first to make it compatible with the DS version. WADs would probably have to be converted into a new format altogether.
f.Both of the DS's processors would be too busy under the strain of rendering video output for OGG playback. You'd probably get stuck with no audio at all or worse...listening to crappy midi tunes, with a midi mapper that sounds worse than the one that's built-in to Moonshell. xD
g. Socs would probably have to be thrown out altogether to get a little more speed and less RAM usage, you can forget getting almost any custom SRB2 level to work properly.
h. By the time DS homebrew tools are powerful enough to make this even remotely possible, Nintendo will have released a more powerful portable. There's no point in trying to make it happen on the DS if you can just wait a few years for a better/faster portable to be released. i.There's also the possibility that Nintendo's next portable won't be powerful enough either. Nintendo has ALWAYS cheaped out on their portable hardware, (the Virtualboy being the best example, if only they had used REAL screens instead of red leds...) even when the technology was easily available or used by competitors. While Sega's Gamegear had a great backlight, 2096 colors and a TV Tuner, Gameboy users had to wait another 5 years until the GBC was released just to get any color at all! (and everybody made a big deal out of it too. :P) Nintendo is well-known because of their games, not bleeding-edge hardware.
It doesn't matter how you look at it, a DS port IS impossible, and wouldn't be confortable/convenient or enjoyable even if it were, basically, it would suck. Just wait on the PSP/GP32 port or get a cheap laptop. (There's also a chance SRB2 could get easily ported to the iPhone, that thing can run circles around the PSP. :P)
Although a port is impossible, you could use Win2DS to remotely control SRB2 on your PC through your DS. The video quality sucks and has no sound, but it is soo fun to play while on the can, I am not kidding. xD (Google it for the download link, n00bs. :P)
If there is any wrong info in this post at all, please feel free to shoot/correct me. Although if you stubbornly argue with these points on something that I did get right, you might just look dumber than grammatically-challenged cat, which is the perfect description of a n00b. :P
Will this finally tell all n00bs to shut up about a pointless port that can never happen...an do i getz cookiz nao?//?/ *shot*
So here are a few 'dumbed down' reasons why a DS 'port' of SRB2 is virtually impossible and why it should never happen, covering all of the bases. This will cover reasons that have been stated before, and much of what I've learned on tthe subject.
1. 'wii cud us dsdoom rit?1'
a. DsDoom hasn't been actively worked on for more than a year, runs slower than dirt, doesn't even have primitive midi playback, and no filters for the obviously scaled down graphics. Basically, DSDOOM sucks, still think it's a decent base for a SRB2 port? Thought not...
b. Let's compare Dooms basic minimum requirements with SRB2's...
Doom: 30 mhz processor, 8mbs RAM
SRB2: 300 mhz processor, 32mb RAM
NDS's specs: Two 30 mhz arm7 processors, 4mbs RAM.
The only reason why the DSDoom port could happen is because the NDS obviously has enough power to handle a 13+ year old PC game, but only after the author spent whole months stripping down Doom's code to run within a meagor 4mbs RAM.
SRB2 requires ten times the processing power and 4 times the RAM that DOOM needs. I'm still surprised the Dreamcast port was possible, but even then, SRB2DC still lagged horribly, and had no sound, and that was just the Dreamcast port! If the most powerful console of its time couldn't handle a homebrew port of SRB2, how much less possible does a DS port look now?
c. Don't even think about mentioning RAM expansion carts, We could go on forever about how slow 8-bit RAM is. The RAM in any expansion cart just isn't fast enough, and most DS homebrew users have only slot-1 setups. So what is everyone supposed to do, buy a RAM cart, or throw away their R4 cards and get some other flash-cart?
It would be cheaper in to get a used PSP than pickup a (sometimes bulky) slot-2 homebrew cartridge just to play SRB2 on your DS! The extra expense of a RAM cart or M3 Pro might drive too many users away from the DS port. Most would rather hunt down a used PSP to play SRB2 on instead.
d. Currently, homebrew tools aren't that powerful yet anyway, it's going to be a long time before they can fully 'unlock' most of the DS's true power and capabilities.
If an SRB2DS port is EVER going to happen anytime soon, you'll need to get your greasy gloves on the official NDS DEV kit from Nintendo, which would truly take full advantage of the DS's hardware and always be far more powerful than any homebrew devkit. Although Nintendo will only provide the dev kit to real game developers (Example, Ubi-Soft, EA games...etc) with a stable financial history, anyone else can chew their own thumbs off.
e.If anything, a C 'port' can't happen, Lordis(creator and programmer of jEnisis DS) said himself that while developing jEnisis, all of the code in the C port of his java-based Genisis emulator had to be rewritten in ASM code, because it ran too slow on the DS. From what I understand, ASM is basically as close as you can get to a processor's inner workings without programming in binary, and nobody does that anymore. :P
In other words, SRB2 can't be 'ported' to the DS, because the C code would have to be completely rewritten just to suit the arm7's architecture, to get any real speed at all.
Now who do you think is going to be stupid enough to spend months, even years becoming familiar enough with the DS's inner workings just to port a single game to a specific platform, AND work on it without getting payed? Count me out. :P
f.'we culd hav a framscip mod, tat wuld halp, rite?'
Wrong, the DS hardware isn't capable of frame skipping last I checked. Besides, Sonic is all about speed, losing even a few frames per second would make SRB2 nearly impossible to control at high speeds.
g.we culd has a pagefile on CF card, tat'd mak up 4 noe ram rite?1
Read/write speeds of flash memory is even slower than RAM carts, I think? It would take forever to perfect that kind of memory management on the DS, because the game has to load/unload bits of unused/used data into/from the pagefile constantly. Playing SRB2 like this would mean spending whole minutes for levels to load or reload if you die, and it would burn out your microCF card in a few weeks anyway. (because of the constant reading/writing, obviously.)
2.Let's just say STjr was able to get their hands on Nintendo's official devkit, what would the SRB2 DS experience be like? Horrible I think! Why do I believe that? Here's why:
a.The DS has a screen resolution of 256x192 pixels on both screens, while DOOM's screen resolution is 320x200. The DS's resolution is pretty close to DOOM's, but as any DSDoom player will tell you, the scaled down graphics are very blocky and makes small text very hard to read. SRB2 is already blocky enough at 320x200 and lots of detail is lost. It would look even worse on the DS (because SRB2 would have to scale down its 320x200 resolution to fit in the DS's screen), maybe even too bad to tell rings or enemies apart in close range, except by their color. xD
The only way to work around the blocky software renderer would be to create a new hardware graphics renderer coded specifically for the DS's video hardware. But as we have seen with SRB2's OpenGL mode, it would lead to new and serious graphical glitches, constant crashing...etc Even with lots of effort, it would never be perfect, or stable.
b. Even if wifi was possible, you wouldn't be able to join the same games as PC players obviously, and it would lag worse than a PC with a dial-up connection, I bet.
c. you can pretty much forget multiplayer altogether, it would suck on the DS anyway, especially when trying to tell your team mates apart from the other team, because of the crappy resolution. 'lik dud wher r u?//!/?!' Lots of users would complain about the touch-screen controls for mouse-look too. I myself hated MPH's touch-screen controls and would have sold my copy if it weren't for the 'dual-hand mode'. Why couldn't those freakin' idiots at Retro Studios put the main view on the bottom screen, and used the Select button for switching weapons? That would have made more since, to me anyway.
d.NIGHT's mode would never happen, do I need to say why. :P
e.because of the great effort it would take to make SRB2 run on the DS, WADs probably wouldn't work, at least not without converting them first to make it compatible with the DS version. WADs would probably have to be converted into a new format altogether.
f.Both of the DS's processors would be too busy under the strain of rendering video output for OGG playback. You'd probably get stuck with no audio at all or worse...listening to crappy midi tunes, with a midi mapper that sounds worse than the one that's built-in to Moonshell. xD
g. Socs would probably have to be thrown out altogether to get a little more speed and less RAM usage, you can forget getting almost any custom SRB2 level to work properly.
h. By the time DS homebrew tools are powerful enough to make this even remotely possible, Nintendo will have released a more powerful portable. There's no point in trying to make it happen on the DS if you can just wait a few years for a better/faster portable to be released. i.There's also the possibility that Nintendo's next portable won't be powerful enough either. Nintendo has ALWAYS cheaped out on their portable hardware, (the Virtualboy being the best example, if only they had used REAL screens instead of red leds...) even when the technology was easily available or used by competitors. While Sega's Gamegear had a great backlight, 2096 colors and a TV Tuner, Gameboy users had to wait another 5 years until the GBC was released just to get any color at all! (and everybody made a big deal out of it too. :P) Nintendo is well-known because of their games, not bleeding-edge hardware.
It doesn't matter how you look at it, a DS port IS impossible, and wouldn't be confortable/convenient or enjoyable even if it were, basically, it would suck. Just wait on the PSP/GP32 port or get a cheap laptop. (There's also a chance SRB2 could get easily ported to the iPhone, that thing can run circles around the PSP. :P)
Although a port is impossible, you could use Win2DS to remotely control SRB2 on your PC through your DS. The video quality sucks and has no sound, but it is soo fun to play while on the can, I am not kidding. xD (Google it for the download link, n00bs. :P)
If there is any wrong info in this post at all, please feel free to shoot/correct me. Although if you stubbornly argue with these points on something that I did get right, you might just look dumber than grammatically-challenged cat, which is the perfect description of a n00b. :P
Will this finally tell all n00bs to shut up about a pointless port that can never happen...an do i getz cookiz nao?//?/ *shot*
