New GFZ1 Track...

Frostav said:
Why would a song for a Metal Sonic race not reference the closest thing he has to a theme song?
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It's only been his "theme song" in recent years. Metal appeared in many, many games before Generations, never referring back to Stardust Speedway. Sonic 4 gave him an original and pretty good theme, which got reinforced in one or two spin-off games afterward, but that's the only other time he's been assigned a recurring theme. Generations reused the Stardust Speedway theme because his boss fight there takes place in Stardust Speedway. It was only appropriate. Seemingly, after that, Sega decided to keep referencing that one race in CD like it was the only thing he had done before his appearance in Generations. To me, it's never felt like a proper theme. It's always felt like nostalgia pandering to the same thing over and over again. There's more to Metal than Sonic CD, something Sega seems to have forgotten.

Aside from all that, you might as well ask why the rest of SRB2 doesn't reference other recurring themes from the franchise. SRB2 should be able to stand on its own as an entirely original Sonic game, at least with the main story levels. It should do what Sega has been afraid of doing since the release of Generations, which is to not reference older games in the franchise as a crutch to cheaply appeal to long-time fans.

CobaltBW said:
Part of the reason I went with such a dramatic departure on ERZ is because I felt the old tracks didn't give me anything useful to work with. The identical solo taking up the entirety of both acts felt like bad form, so I didn't want that.
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You call it a solo, but I would call it the leading melody of the tracks. It's the core driving element of those songs, not just a guitar solo. Removing it from them is like removing the beef patty of a hamburger. You're left with something fundamentally incomplete. It's no wonder you felt you didn't have anything useful to work with after throwing it out. And I'm not sure by what you mean when you say you wanted to make ERZ sound more like "Sonic music". Sonic has always had a wide variety of musical styles under its belt. You had hip-hop, pop, rock, all sorts of inspirations. To me, old ERZ would be right at home in the Adventure games or even Heroes.
 
TripodRanger said:
It's only been his "theme song" in recent years. Metal appeared in many, many games before Generations, never referring back to Stardust Speedway.
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I do feel this is a bit unfair though, as not counting spin-offs (Fighters, R, Free Riders), cameos (SA1, SA2), and games that are non-canon to my knowledge (Triple Trouble, Knuckles Chaotix), he really only made one appearances between CD and Generations: Sonic Heroes (S4EII was actually after Generations, contrary to what I initially thought before looking into it)

And considering two of his appearances in recent years were Generations and Mania, games that literally had you go back to Stardust Speedway, where his boss fight in his first appearance was, I honestly see why the song is so closely tied to him. Hell, even S4EII used it during a race against him during the Death Egg Mk.II level. It's like how Green Hill is used a lot in relation to Sonic himself, with it being the first zone from his first game (I know it's overused by SEGA at this point but the point still stands). Hell, even SRB2 still uses Green Hill - it's theme is used for Sapphire Falls in Match mode.

That being said, I do still understand where you come from, even if I personally think it's no problem. As far as I'm concerned, it's a Sonic fangame, so I don't mind a reference to official songs here and there or even a full official song used, as I'm still happy the thought was put in to at least try to make an original soundtrack. It only makes me happier for the soundtrack to be as good as it is.

TripodRanger said:
You call it a solo, but I would call it the leading melody of the tracks. It's the core driving element of those songs, not just a guitar solo. Removing it from them is like removing the beef patty of a hamburger.
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To build on your analogy though, most two-act tracks in the game were like completely different burgers, with the same base burger and bun but different sets of condiments that make each taste similar yet unique.

ERZ was like two burgers that are the exact same except one bun had sesame seeds on it and the other didn't.

Both ERZ themes used, at least from what I heard, the same exact guitar solo with no variation, with only some slight variation in the background during the solo and a different intro. Most of the other zone themes atleast had some big changes in act 2. From tempo changes, to new additions to the melodies, there was more to work with with the other zones, hence why the new ones have more similarities to the originals than ERZ. Even then, ERZ's new themes still reference the old one in several places, they just had to add more new parts to be like the other new remixes. Not to mention things that needed changed that CobaltBW mentioned. I've not taken any in depth classes in terms of music theory, but from the sounds of it there were problems with the chords and bassline that needed ironed out.

And don't get me wrong, I love the old ERZ themes too. Music can make or break a game for me, and back when I first started playing SRB2 back in 2.0 I played ERZ for hours despite the zone frustrating me because I loved the music that much.
 
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TripodRanger said:
You call it a solo, but I would call it the leading melody of the tracks. It's the core driving element of those songs, not just a guitar solo. Removing it from them is like removing the beef patty of a hamburger. You're left with something fundamentally incomplete. It's no wonder you felt you didn't have anything useful to work with after throwing it out. And I'm not sure by what you mean when you say you wanted to make ERZ sound more like "Sonic music". Sonic has always had a wide variety of musical styles under its belt. You had hip-hop, pop, rock, all sorts of inspirations. To me, old ERZ would be right at home in the Adventure games or even Heroes.
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A solo that functions as the leading melody is still a solo. Classic Sonic music in particular is characterized by melodic motifs that are established in each zone. Egg Rock had none, because its melody, by nature of it being a rambling solo, does not center around any particular melodic idea.

And I'm aware that changing the melody fundamentally changes the chemistry of the music. That's kind of the point, though. I didn't think that a solo was the appropriate centerpiece for both acts, so I changed it. Genre has nothing to do with it. (If anything, the new ERZ2 sounds even more like Sonic Adventure.)
 
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Tyrannic said:
Since this thread has kinda become the unofficial soundtrack discussion thread for 2.2, I might also give my two cents on this matter.

It is really difficult for me to differentiate between which part of a track I really like because of the overall quality of the composition and which parts I am primarily fond of for nostalgic reasons. There have been instances playing through 2.2 where I found myself being positively surprised by some of the extended tracks with higher sound quality and better instrumentation, at other parts I felt that the reimagined takes on classic tunes strayed too far from the originals even when considering the changes and additions made to the associated zones.

It has been mentioned before that some of the design decisions in 2.2 (not only regarding sound design) make Sonic Mania come to mind and that certainly isn't a bad influence. However, when looking at the music, I feel like some of the more adventurous compositions do clash a bit with the intended themes of the levels. ERZ2 sounds too upbeat, RVZ1 really suffers from the decrease in BPM especially considering the speed-oriented gameplay even in the remade version. AZ1 takes the components of the somewhat simplistic original and goes just that tad too far in the other direction, it's too busy for my taste. This criticism can be generalized somewhat, as I feel that overall some of the leads can seem a bit overindulgent, but maybe that's just me.
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I actually quite like the upbeatness of the track--not only does it help me from tearing my hair out at how damn hard ERZ2 is, it reminds me of Final Egg in SA1. Not composition-wise, but in that the music is upbeat and triumphant because Sonic isn't the kind of guy to be all trepidatious and on his guard when storming the fortress of the bad guy--he's a wise-cracking hero who knows he's gonna tear through this fortress like it's nothing and kick Eggman's ass. The levels in SRB2 and SA1 that actually do have the whole "dangerously storming the bad guy's base, unsure if you'll survive" feel are Castle Eggman and Sky Deck, and so they have far more ominous (CEZ)/intense (SD) songs.

Also, in regards to the ERZ1 debate, I have no nostalgia for the old one and quite like the new one more than it (I listened to it recently to see what the fuss was about).
 
SSNTails said:
I'd just like to put on the record that SRB2's theme being based on the 'Sonic & Knuckles' track from Virtual Sonic was discovered posthumously. We were several years on into development when I finally got my hands on that CD (young generation can't relate to the 'net back then and the inaccessibility of information) and was just piddling along, listening to the CD when all of a sudden HOLY SHIT.
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Huh? How did that happen? Who based the SRB2 main theme on the Sonic & Knuckles theme if not you or Sonikku?
 
Unknownlight said:
Huh? How did that happen? Who based the SRB2 main theme on the Sonic & Knuckles theme if not you or Sonikku?
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David Bulmer wrote the initial set of the music for the game. (Old) intro, title screen, greenflower 1 & 2, and boss.
 
SamVision said:
is terrible.



No offense to the artists involved, but this new "version" of the track not only sounds completely different, it is also utterly inferior to the previous version. The original was a nice soothing melodious piece that felt like an appropriately chill introduction to the game. This new version seems to have taken a much worse approach and sounds like a mess. Even the indev version on youtube sounds better.
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Old ones sound not good and the new ones are much better and i like them.does not sound like a mess u opinionistic person. I disagree with your opinion alot.
 
I'm just incredibly impressed that the sound team could make this soundtrack sound like actual Sonic music to me, considering it felt a bit dull and bland as my time with 2.1 came to a close. GFZ1 now sounds upbeat and cheerful as opposed to the melancholy dreeriness of the original, which isn't how you should give a first impression of a Sonic game IMO. Sonic, even when he has a dark and dreery start to the story, still manages to stay determined and upbeat himself. He's speeding through zones after all, so the music should match that pace.

GFZ2 always sounded a bit better in my mind but needed a bit of tweaking and this song along with the trailer hit all the right notes for me.

DSZ1 and 2 both nail the atmosphere of an underwater level for me now, while the original felt a little flat in comparison, despite the name being Deep Sea, there didn't seem to be much depth in the music.

The special stage themes are just... absolute bangers each and every one, they fill me with nostalgia for the original special stage music (which, when coupled with my first playthrough being in multiplayer, you could imagine my surprise when they linked up) and are catchy as heck. As soon as Flooded Cave is uploaded to the main channel, I'm shoving that in my sleep playlist.

The boss themes are awesome and the main boss theme reminds me a lot of Sonic Adventure's Eggman theme so that gets a plus from me.

Egg Rock 1 is a little rocky for me (heh) but it gets the job done, act 2 really shines in my eyes though as it reminds me of Titanic Tower Act 2 and has that classic ERZ motif. It really rocks!

The speed shoes music is another case of transforming a meh track for me into an absolute hit, and the super theme... GOSH THIS THING IS LONG! It sounds fantastical and heroic and long enough to not get repetitive when playing longer levels, as opposed to the original which was basically just the title screen music slightly extended.

I sincerely hope that the rest of the music tracks (most notably the rest of the multiplayer tracks) get the same treatment that these songs got!
 
I've pretty much been blown away by GFZ's 1 and 2 music so i don't know why you don't like it. The entire soundtrack is just awesome... Though, there are some tracks that just don't work me.

First of all, DSZ's 1 and 2 music is works enough but really not rise to the original one where the music is just more angelic .

Second, RVZ. It sounds less intense then the old one. I like the used of its prehistoric style music but it doesn't hit me well.

And third, ERZ 1 and 2. I don't like it. It sounds like every generic final level music. The original 1 and 2 maybe repetitive but the music is like its own thing. Slow smooth electronic beats with much focus sick guitar solo pretty much give Egg Rock its own identity and i love that in every way. (Though maybe cause it doesn't fit the current ERZ we have right now)

I'm maybe wrong about this, these are my opinions so take it with a grain of salt
 
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Given that 2.2 is still fresh from the oven and its soundtrack therefore equally so to the public, I do have to wonder how much of the reactions here are knee-jerk to the fact that the soundtrack has actually changed at all. This goes both ways I think, whether it's "FINALLY, I was sick of hearing the old music for the last two decades, about time it changed" or "WHAT, the old music was perfectly good, why did you change it".

For that reason, I wonder how people's opinions on the soundtrack will turn out in a few years, once 2.2 has properly settled in. Maybe it'll be the same, maybe it'll differ a bit, who knows?
 
Honestly, yeah, though admittedly, I just can't go back to the old Egg Rock songs. Frankly, I think it's all great, and my only disappointment is Black Hole not using SPEC8, and that was fixed with a quick soc for me.

I also wanna say that, since music-only mods don't trigger gameismodified, that having new songs is just objectively better, since the old songs are just an easy wad away, so both soundtracks now exist, whereas if Cobalt and Tapeworm and such hadn't made new songs, only the old songs would exist. Not that I would replace literally any of the new songs, but still, if you preferred some of the old songs, just have a wad to replace them in.
 
Not going to lie when I first heard the wip version of GFZ 1 I was so worried that the soundtrack was going to remove all of the smooth melodic lines of the original and replace them with some weird electronic / genesis styled mess. Luckily though once I started playing I was blown away. While I still prefer something about the softness of the OG GFZ, I can not deny that the new version are a massive improvement.

The only track that I just can not get into is Eggrock. No matter how hard I try I just can not get into these tracks. While its a common point of controversy I still believe that the solo is the heart of the track and without it in the forefront, or some kind of similar "epic" melodic line it just doesn't stick to my ears. Both start great but lack that big "oomph" moment. Similarly, the metal sonic race theme just didn't do it for me, but as a short 90 second race I didn't mind it much at all.

Frozen Hillside sounds like a Spyro 3 track which is pretty rad. I thought it was weak at first but I've grown to like it.

A real gem though is Haunted Heights, it is ridiculously catchy and the production is awesome. I love that that sort of string synth that carries the backing part of the track. Especially love the break down part at 00:48 that has that backing choir, just a really standout track.

In terms of the main campaign the one I keep returning to is Deep Sea Act 2, it is fantastic and a wonderful improvement on the original. I'm wondering thought what kind of synth did they use for the opening descending line, that really lite synth. Similarly I'm wondering what synth they used for that spacious part at 0:43.

Overall the new soundtrack is really good and in many cases better, more complex and more interesting than the original versions.
 
Honestly, the only old tracks in which I really prefer to its new versions are THZ1 and THZ2. While Shane's take on THZ isn't bad, don't get me wrong, I still prefer the older aesthetic of Techno Hill. I've talked about new THZ with some people in the official discord and I was surprised I wasn't alone, THZ1 and THZ2 was always to me one of those tracks that didn't really need to change for 2.2, although maybe with some minor changes here and there.
 
Please keep the current Metal Sonic track, I freaking love it. I agree with Frostav, you just can't have too many Stardust Speedway remixes XP

BTW, I tried listening to the old music for comparison by disabling digital music in options, and the midi music sounded absolutely terrible. It sounded much worse than the digital music, and even the 2014 SRB2 OST (which I believe contains mp3 recordings of the original midi tracks). Why is that? I've heard that midi music tends to sound differently depending on the sound card, could that be the reason?
 
I'm very late, but I want to say that I personally can't understand for the life of me why anyone would ever prefer any single song in the game's old soundtrack to the 2.2 version. I'll go over what I see as the biggest improvements, which some strangely see as the biggest downgrades. Warning: lots of text incoming.

Greenflower: The old version of Greenflower's music is downright insulting compared to the 2.2 version, especially the second act. Pre-2.2, Act 1's music has a lead section with a simple melody and backing in G major but then goes into F minor of all possible keys for the B section. F minor is almost on the opposite side of the circle of fifths (for those of you who don't know music theory, it's a way to organize all 24 major and minor keys by how much they have in common) from G major; such a key change can work in the right circumstances, but it feels very weird for the first zone of a Sonic game. Act 2's old music is mostly the same but with some different melodies (with some clashing notes in the B section!) and somewhat stronger instrumentation. 2.2 upgrades both acts of Greenflower's music so well it transcends words. The B section stays in G major now, with logical and lively continuations of the main section's chords, and is followed up with further sections to help make Greenflower Zone Act 1 truly feel like a modernization of SRB2's music. Act 2's new music kicks the prior act way into high gear, with much stronger and more energetic instrumentation than before and a faster tempo, with the chords varied by having them go faster in the main section and slower (more time spent on each chord) in the B section and following parts. I guess I should respect nostalgia for the old version, but I think the new version is objectively better.

Arid Canyon: The old Arid Canyon music is pretty good and really catchy, but feels kind of out-of-place compared to the rest of the pre-2.2 tracks. This may be bias from having heard the new version plenty before the old version, but I think the old Arid Canyon music sounds kind of incomplete and more like a short stock music loop borrowed from elsewhere than a pre-2.2 SRB2 song. The old version starts straight with what sounds like a B section, with a fourth chord instead of a root chord, and then goes into a chorus section without going back to the main section (the verse, you can think of it that way). The new music for Arid Canyon Act 1 fixes all those problems and considerably expands the original song's composition. The instrumentation may be slightly less country-oriented, but I think that was a more than fair change to help make the song fit better in SRB2's soundtrack. Act 2's music increases the country style to beautiful effect, introducing swing rhythm and new groovy chords to make it a worthy followup to Act 1.

Egg Rock: I'd argue that this zone's music got the biggest upgrade of all in 2.2, even though some people seem to vastly prefer the old one for some strange reason. The old Egg Rock Zone theme (both acts) is really repetitive, especially in terms of chords. It consists mostly of average-sounding synths, except for the live-recorded guitar which badly clashes with the rest of the instrumentation. Act 2's old music doesn't expand upon Act 1's too much, except for some stronger synths to make the music feel somewhat more tense. The new Egg Rock music fixes every single problem I have with the old versions. Act 1 keeps the structure and rhythm varied (I especially love the brief triple meter interlude), and introduces plenty of new melodies played by different instruments: electric piano, some cool synths, and a live guitar that's much, MUCH better integrated into the mix than the old version (probably because of the higher production quality overall). Act 2 does about the same things with the first act's tempo that the new Greenflower Act 2 does: faster pace overall and much stronger instrumentation, but with some parts slowed down to take more time on each note/chord to build tension beautifully. Act 2 has a much stronger guitar presence than Act 1, and it's integrated so perfectly in the mix.

I'm sorry for dumping out three walls of text on a months-old thread, but I really like rambling about stuff like this. I could write a whole paragraph on what's improved about the new version of practically every song, but I just wanted to give my personal opinions on three big ones.
 
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