Monster Iestyn
Fangtastic
Okay, I've split this section of the Sonic 4: Episode 2 to become it's own topic, because clearly this part of the thread is not about that game, is it?
(Split from: Sonic 4: Episode 2) Sonic Advance 2 discussion
- Thread starter Dark Metal
- Start date
- Status
Has nobody ever told you that this argument doesn't work? Here's why:
- It's not in any way a counterargument. The argument "X is a flaw" can only be countered by proving that X is not a flaw. "Don't play it if you don't like it" acknowledges that X is a flaw. Therefore, you agree with me.
- Another way to put it: Your argument basically boils down to "The game is only of interest to those who are interested in it." This is a tautology. My argument merely states that I'm not interested in it and why. The only thing your argument accomplishes is to agree with me that I'm not interested in the game. You're not countering but rather supporting my argument.
- The "don't play it if you don't like it" argument falsely assumes that the person in question actually plays the game. I don't play Sonic Advance 2 at all (except for the sake of this discussion), therefore your argument accomplishes nothing.
- I demand that the game be enjoyable without self-imposed or optional challenges. Previous Sonic games were very enjoyable even if you "merely" tried to get to the end. If Sonic Advance 2 is boring when I try to do that, that's a problem with the game, not with me. It does not deliver what I expect from it, therefore I don't play it. Again, you agree with me.
I don't. Where are you getting the idea from that I'm buying these games when I'm clearly indicating that I'm not interested in them?
Due to the way the two fish are aligned, there is only a very small window of opportunity to walk over the bridge unharmed. If you don't stop to aim, it's rather unlikely that you will make it without being hit. You're telling me that thanks to an enormously unlikely coincidence, you managed not to get hit once by any of the numerous fish in the level. Either you're lying or you will never be able to reproduce this again.
Bbop800
BboP
Well, yes, there's those. But I was talking about how the Genesis games didn't use it in every single stage, like Episode 1 did. Zones such as Chemical Plant's boost pads were more of a gimmick than a main feature in the game.
Final Radiance
Member
Not to mention they're used scarcely, there's not much more than perhaps just 4-5 at most, whereas in Advance 2, it's littered with springs and boost pads all over the level.
Last edited:
Autosaver
Member
You didn't buy Sonic 4/not buying Episode II?
I'm 100% I didn't get hit by the first fish. I then noticed there also was a second row. I feel like I may have rolled into those ones. I tried to reproduce the results and you're right, I most likely won't be able to reproduce the results. (Oh crap, you have to press the down button two times now!) Ha ha.
I think we were talking about how Sonic 4 was mostly automation which brought up previous Dimps works.
Last edited:
Sergeant Brown
An Eggman Fan
Sonic Advance 1. Egg Rocket Zone. Compartment n°3. Lots of speed boosters there.
Also excuse me, but you're just bloody exaggerating. Boost Pads were not all over the levels. In fact they were rather sparse. Even in Techno Base, the zone that I consider to have the most boosts pads, they weren't extremely close to each other.
Monster Iestyn
Fangtastic
Yeah, I could see that.
Exactly. Is that surprising?
Okay, whatever. The exact number of jumps isn't really relevant to my point anyway. My problem with Hot Crater Zone in particular is that it lacks both platforming and a gimmick. It consists almost entirely of slopes, loops and rails, with a few secrets and enemies sprinkled around and a very occasional anchor used to pull me up to a higher part of the stage. The only real interaction comes from deciding which path I want to take, which is ultimately irrelevant because none of the paths really contain anything. This might be tolerable for the first zone (see Sonic 2: even though I dislike Emerald Hill Zone, it's short, has quite a few secrets and much better levels follow immediately), but by the second zone, I want to see some action. Even Advance 1's second zone, although it suffers from the fact that you can avoid almost everything by keeping to the lowest path, tries its best to entertain the player with interactive gimmicks.
Sergeant Brown
An Eggman Fan
Let me be clear on one thing: Sonic Advance 2 is the first sonic game to put more emphasis on speed than platforming, and if you were an old school sonic gamer playing this game for the very first time you still wouldn't know how to jump off rails at the very end to get yourself a nice vertical boost and being able to pull off tricks each time you jump off a jump pad, rail or spring by the end of Leaf Forest.
It's therefore only natural that it needs two zones to make the player feel comfortable with this game.
Also yes it's surprising you didn't play Sonic 4, because if you did you would've noticed there's at least one gimmick per act. And yes, they're interactive.
It's therefore only natural that it needs two zones to make the player feel comfortable with this game.
Also yes it's surprising you didn't play Sonic 4, because if you did you would've noticed there's at least one gimmick per act. And yes, they're interactive.
As one of these "oldschool Sonic gamers", I still didn't "know how to jump off rails at the very end to get yourself a nice vertical boost and being able to pull off tricks each time you jump off a jump pad, rail or spring" by the end of Hot Crater. The first two zones didn't introduce them to me in any sensible way. Which is not a big deal, because they're optional (or at least they would be if Sky Canyon didn't suddenly require you to use them. I'm not the only person who was utterly frustrated by this zone because I didn't know about the tricks yet, but that's another story). To introduce such optional tricks, you could hide secrets in the first zone that require these mechanics to get to. Maybe Leaf Forest does this, I don't know. But by making the levels so automated that you can beat them by holding down the directional keys and jumping about three times per stage, you're not introducing anything. Quite the contrary, you're actually preventing the player from finding about these mechanics because you're encouraging him to non-stop rush through the levels.
Me not playing Sonic 4 has nothing to do with my dislike for Sonic Advance 2. I never said that Sonic 4 is automated, because I don't know; I never played it.
Last edited:
Sergeant Brown
An Eggman Fan
Well I could see how they could make you "know how to jump off rails at the very end to get yourself a nice vertical boost" by putting lots of rails (like in Hot Crater) but with decently long horizontal parts at the end and with an upwards arrow.
Now telling you to "pull off tricks each time you jump off a jump pad, rail or spring" is another story, and I'll congratulate you if you find a way that isn't like showing the buttons you need to press to pull them off.
Now telling you to "pull off tricks each time you jump off a jump pad, rail or spring" is another story, and I'll congratulate you if you find a way that isn't like showing the buttons you need to press to pull them off.
Simple: You make a section that requires you to use that trick and that can't be skipped in any way. Just make sure it doesn't have a death pit.
Why should a game require me to read the manual if it can easily teach me everything along the way?
Don't play any RPGs any time soon with that kind of mentality. :P
Although with regards to Sonic Advance 2, it's a fairly valid point. Super Mario Bros. was pretty much laid out perfectly to introduce various facets of the game from World 1-1. Try going left? Can't. Try running right without jumping? Oops, you ran into that Goomba. Run into a pipe? Jump over it, get a feel for just how tall your jump can go. Things like that. There's precedence within the genre.
I don't recall any point in Advance 2 that taught me about the trick mechanic gently before running into Sky Canyon, where you're required to use it under penalty of death.
Although with regards to Sonic Advance 2, it's a fairly valid point. Super Mario Bros. was pretty much laid out perfectly to introduce various facets of the game from World 1-1. Try going left? Can't. Try running right without jumping? Oops, you ran into that Goomba. Run into a pipe? Jump over it, get a feel for just how tall your jump can go. Things like that. There's precedence within the genre.
I don't recall any point in Advance 2 that taught me about the trick mechanic gently before running into Sky Canyon, where you're required to use it under penalty of death.
Dark Metal
ZNemeald
Valid point, I agree but how did you know that Knuckles can glide and Tails can fly in Sonic 3?
This one spot killed me at least ten times before I figured out that there was a trick key. It's by far the worst part of SAd2. You should not have to read the manual to understand the game mechanics in a platformer. This is the 21st century and game cartridges have more than enough space to outright tell you via a tutorial should it be necessary, and for a Sonic game that shouldn't even be necessary. One of the early stages could have showed off the feature with by forcing you to use it and placing an on-screen prompt to make sure that you know how to do it, because later on in the game they're going to require it. I'm not a huge fan of putting button icons on-screen, but when a mechanic is that important to the game they really need to make sure you know it exists.
Now personally, I did moderately enjoy SAd2, but that's because me and a friend at the time were trying to beat each other's times in Time Attack, which the game IS good at. If you're just trying to play through the game to win, SAd2 has some terrible game mechanics, and absolutely fuck getting all the emeralds without some kind of guide.
Obviously I wouldn't apply that mindset to RPGs.
I, uh... double jumped? Even if somebody is not aware of the fact that double jump abilities are common in platforming games, they'll probably double jump accidentally at some point during the first minute of playing the game.
Autosaver
Member
I thought the mechanics in Advance 2 were so easy to figure out that you didn't even have to learn it/read the manual. I'm sure me playing other Dimps titles made it easier for me to understand how to play. Coming from you guys that started with Advance 2 or just didn't play other titles, then I can see why you may have had troubles.
Thankfully, future games made by Dimps DID have some sort of tutorial. Well, at least Sonic Rush Adventure did. There is a stage that teaches you tricks, boost, air jumps, etc. Sonic 4 Episode II even has on screen monitors that tell you what to do to activate your new maneuvers.
Thankfully, future games made by Dimps DID have some sort of tutorial. Well, at least Sonic Rush Adventure did. There is a stage that teaches you tricks, boost, air jumps, etc. Sonic 4 Episode II even has on screen monitors that tell you what to do to activate your new maneuvers.
Uh, I don't think the tricks should be compared to Sonic 2/3's abilities. Since all it requires is to double tap the jump button, I'm sure not many people had trouble with it.
Final Radiance
Member
Perhaps I was over exaggerating, but I was simply just comparing the Advanced series to the Genesis.
You know, in the Genesis games:
- They're not in every level
- They're not used mostly around the level, regardless of how little it is, there's stil a noticable amount in the advance series
Last edited:
- Status