How SRB2 approaches 2 Button gameplay

Soft Tangent...

I thought about it the other way -- What would it be like, or would it be possible, to make SRB2 completely one button?

If the shield powers were to work like Classic, then only Sonic benefits from their versatility, but they cancel out Thok (or tbd ability). Other characters only benefit from the passive shield power. Tails gets to fly, but he doesn't get to set off the nuke blast unless he's hit.

The real question is, how do you spin/roll/spin dash? The one "X" button jumps; pressing twice is jump ability.

So then maybe it's better to think of it this way -- How do you replace "d-pad down" for 3D?

Tap X - jump
Tap X + tap X again - jump ability

Hold X - roll on ground (if moving), crouch (if stationary)
While rolling, Tap X again to begin spin dash and hold to charge

Only ability this removes is being able to jump out of a roll. But it keeps everything strictly 1 button gameplay, in terms of ability.

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

Ideally, I would've wanted shield abilities to be on a different button, similar to how Mania set turning Super to the top face button. I get why they didn't do it, but as it currently stands I almost never want to get a shield while playing as Sonic.

Interesting. I do like activating Super Sonic being a different button.

While I obviously adore the Drop Dash, I'm trying to think of a shield ability in Mania that I don't like... I like the S3K abilities equally. I know Mania had new shields in there, but ... damn, I can't remember off the top of my head; only thing I can think of is that it was nice having the blank S2 shields lol.
 
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That wouldn't work. The only way for the game to tell the difference between a tap and a hold is to wait a moment after the player presses the button to determine what action should be performed. That can't possibly work in a twitchy platformer like SRB2. There would be lag between pressing jump and actually jumping.
 
?? It can't tell the difference between tap and hold?

Maybe:

L stick down + X could work as roll (or crouch if stationary)

Then while rolling, X again to spin dash immediately or hold to charge spin dash.

Jump, then L stick down is jumping backwards in space.

In this way, L-stick controls how Sonic's legs move in directional 3D space. X button represents the power/force of momentum from his legs.

Stationary or forward/lateral, X is a vertical propulsion of feet off the ground and tucking the legs, X+X is a power propulsion using the air as a base to propel horizontally.

Down/back + X is tucking, then propelling/spin dash with X again.
 
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?? It can't tell the difference between tap and hold?

Replying to this part specifically...

I'm not talking about just SRB2, I'm talking about real-life physics. To have a responsive jump, Sonic has to jump the moment the button is pressed.

So, the player presses the button. Sonic jumps. The player keeps the button held down for another second. The game now detects that the button is held and Sonic should've spindashed instead... while Sonic is in midair over a pit. How do you reconcile that without adding lag to the jump button?
 
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Replying to this part specifically...

I'm not talking about just SRB2, I'm talking about real-life physics. To have a responsive jump, Sonic has to jump the moment the button is pressed.

So, the player presses the button. Sonic jumps. The player keeps the button held down for another second. The game now detects that the button is held and Sonic should've spindashed instead... while Sonic is in midair over a pit. How do you reconcile that without added lag to the jump button?

Thanks for the example, I see what you're saying. Rest of my previous reply answers question with an alternate combination idea!
 
I really don't get why you're questioning some of the most basic and fundamental things about SRB2. These button functionalities have stayed the same throughout the game's long history for a reason. So much about the game has changed over the years that by this point, the few things that haven't changed are fundamental to SRB2's identity.
 
1. They figure it out, like they figured out how to spindash or roll in the old days, how they learned to cancel their jump in SA, etc.
2. LW Bounce for Sonic, Tails and Amy already have one, Knuckles recurls in the air and can start another glide ala Adventure, and Fang just actually shoots in the air.
But none of these are needed, LW bounce is absolutely just wanting more unneccessary power for Sonic, same for Knuckles recurl. Fangs probably the only one I'd actually argue for having an air move.
 
Re: cookiefonster,

Questioning is a way of analyzing is why, and that's fun for discussion and debate. On one hand, the fundamentals of SRB2 are beyond reproach because they are perfect. On the other, we are wondering, yes yes, but how could it be ... even better?

---------- Post added 04-27-2020 at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-26-2020 at 11:47 PM ----------

Re: strawman's imaginary argument: "Who asked you?"

Nobody! Just that there's a message board for a game labeling itself "v2.2" implying a future version; suggesting it's incomplete and in the process of changing and developing.

"v5.5" might never happen, maybe "v3.0" will call SRB2 complete. But any future changes from how 2.2 exists currently -- previous versions don't need to be wiped from existence, right? 2.2 can always be available regardless of any new changes in the future.

So, why not question/speculate/pitch? We do it in hypothetical discussion anyway for games that are called complete
 
I really don't get why you're questioning some of the most basic and fundamental things about SRB2. These button functionalities have stayed the same throughout the game's long history for a reason. So much about the game has changed over the years that by this point, the few things that haven't changed are fundamental to SRB2's identity.

Eh... the jump/spin buttons have always been the same, but otherwise the controls have arguably been one of the least consistent parts of SRB2. The defaults change with basically every major version. Even when not considering Standard vs Analog vs Simple, you can check out the bug report section and find SSNTails complaining that his control scheme was patched out from 2.2.
 
Eh... the jump/spin buttons have always been the same, but otherwise the controls have arguably been one of the least consistent parts of SRB2. The defaults change with basically every major version. Even when not considering Standard vs Analog vs Simple, you can check out the bug report section and find SSNTails complaining that his control scheme was patched out from 2.2.
The default controls aren't at all what I was referring to. I just mean the general ideas of what the movement, jump, and spin buttons do.
 
The reason S3K could replace your ability as Sonic is because Sonic's ability was god-awful. The insta-shield was borderline useless to most players because of how terribly it was explained. I didn't understand how to actually use it until a decade later, and I played S3K to death as a child. Sonic might as well not have had an ability at all. Therefore, the shields giving you new abilities was a net positive all the time.

That's not true in SRB2. All of the characters have important double jump abilities that you would not want to replace. If we replaced your double jump ability, the correct answer for most situations would be to never grab a shield, ever.

I think that, more broadly, the reason Sonic was designed the way he was in Sonic 3 was to give Sonic power-scaling and gameplay variety, and to accentuate Sonic's differences from Tails and Knuckles without changing his core gameplay too dramatically.

Some recently unearthed Sonic 3 prototypes had the drop-dash mechanic before implementing the insta-shield; the switch suggests to me that the team avoided giving Sonic a mobility-altering core ability in order to eliminate this trade-off mindset which you've highlighted.



The cleanest solution to all of this for SRB2 probably would have been to give Sonic the insta-shield and make Sonic the only character who can use shield abilities, once again accentuating Sonic's gameplay differences from the other characters while also freeing Amy to use the air hammer on spin without any conflicts.... But with our current campaign, this would only highlight Sonic's damning lack of vertical mobility without shield actives. Our game and level design is probably too far along for this to be a practical option anymore.
 
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The cleanest solution to all of this for SRB2 probably would have been to give Sonic the insta-shield and make Sonic the only character who can use shield abilities, once again accentuating Sonic's gameplay differences from the other characters while also freeing Amy to use the air hammer on spin without any conflicts.... But with our current campaign, this would only highlight Sonic's damning lack of vertical mobility without shield actives. Our game and level design is probably too far along for this to be a practical option anymore.

This would allow for Sonic-specific emblems at least. I feel that the most damning indictment against Sonic's current ability set is that he's the only character where it's impossible to create emblems only he can access.
 
Some recently unearthed Sonic 3 prototypes had the drop-dash mechanic before implementing the insta-shield; the switch suggests to me that the team avoided giving Sonic a mobility-altering core ability in order to eliminate this trade-off mindset which you've highlighted.
Avoiding a mobility trade-off was always part of the design because the drop dash in the Sonic 3 prototype was actually mapped to holding up after jumping. That's quite an awkward place to put it considering what the ability actually does, but I imagine the developers were trying to make use of an otherwise mostly unused directional press while preventing any conflict with shield abilities. Of course, it wound up scrapped in the end anyways.

I feel that the most damning indictment against Sonic's current ability set is that he's the only character where it's impossible to create emblems only he can access.
I don't think this is a relevant issue at all. It's fun flavor for level design sure, but you can also just use a skin check if it's important to restrict a section to Sonic. The breakable walls that already exist in the game are just glorified skin checks.
 
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I don't think this is a relevant issue at all. It's fun flavor for level design sure, but you can also just use a skin check if it's important to restrict a section to Sonic. The breakable walls that already exist in the game are just glorified skin checks.

You're not wrong, but part of the magic of the current emblem design is that the "skin-check" is made implicit through the level design, and it's up to the player to decide which character is optimal for collecting that emblem based on the logic and physics of the game world itself.

You can make Sonic emblems using an explicit skin check, but at that point it feels sort of like an admission of failure -- that since there is virtually no way to hide a Sonic-only emblem from all of the other characters using game geometry and special bustable sectors/objects etc., the designer must force the player to work for a certain emblem that at least one other character would be able to reach more easily than Sonic. All the more salt in the wound when you consider that all five other characters can take exclusive paths now, not just Tails and Knuckles.
 
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You're not wrong, but part of the magic of the current emblem design is that the "skin-check" is made implicit through the level design, and it's up to the player to decide which character is optimal for collecting that emblem based on the logic and physics of the game world itself.

You can make Sonic emblems using an explicit skin check, but at that point it feels sort of like an admission of failure -- that since there is virtually no way to hide a Sonic-only emblem from all of the other characters using game geometry and special bustable sectors/objects etc., the designer must force the player to work for a certain emblem that at least one other character would be able to reach more easily than Sonic. All the more salt in the wound when you consider that all five other characters can take exclusive paths now, not just Tails and Knuckles.

The simplest version of a "Sonic Exclusive Emblem" I could think of would be a room that isn't high enough to be cheesed by Tails's fly, can't be climbed up by Knuckles, and doesn't give enough space for Fang to bounce away.

The emblem would be locked in a thok-sized hole that could only be enter via a thok, and in order to get to that hole you would have to bounce on enemies within the room.

Conceptually, I think it's a lot harder to design than I may think, but it's there. No other character in the game can enter a spin-sized hitbox with their abilities.
 
The simplest version of a "Sonic Exclusive Emblem" I could think of would be a room that isn't high enough to be cheesed by Tails's fly, can't be climbed up by Knuckles, and doesn't give enough space for Fang to bounce away.

The emblem would be locked in a thok-sized hole that could only be enter via a thok, and in order to get to that hole you would have to bounce on enemies within the room.

Conceptually, I think it's a lot harder to design than I may think, but it's there. No other character in the game can enter a spin-sized hitbox with their abilities.

Easy fix to that- make Roll/Spin Dash exclusive to Sonic's abilities.

"Spin" becomes "Action" button, dependent on character. Gun for Fang, hammer for Amy, as it is now.

Knuckles gets punch instead. Tails swipe for Tails.
 
SBR2's having all new shields and emphasizing them to a larger degree that is out of sync with Classic or otherwise Sonic is a little bit like the game design equivalent of fan-fic that introduces Poochie the Hedgehog, Sonic's cooler older brother, and everything is about him now, and when he's not there, you really wish he was. It reframes everything to focus more on the new totally bitchin unique thing.

I feel like this is an over-exaggeration of the role shields play in this game. Shields are items which appear sparingly and are permanently lost when you take damage, until you can find another one, if you even can. No obstacle in the game requires use of a shield, and their only purposes are to make the game easier for players struggling to get past hazards, and allowing skilled players to make use of their passive- and active-skills as a reward for not taking damage and losing the shield. The entire game can be completed without ever picking up a shield, if the player is skilled enough.

Right. So, is SRB2 "Classic Sonic" or is it making concessions to work in 3D?

SRB2 is an attempt at interpretting the design fundamentals of Classic Sonic into a 3D space, which sometimes requires concessions, such as the addition of the spin button. And additionally, SRB2 is made by a team of individuals with their own opinions on game design, not just for Classic Sonic but in general, so they make adjustments where they see fit, such as opting not to make the input for a character's innate special ability overlap with the shield ability, requiring the player to make an unnecessary choice between the two. I don't really see how having the option of a jump ability and a shield ability simultaneously is too drastically out of line with Classic Sonic.

The reason I make both comparison and differentiation between Classic Sonic and the idea of SRB2 being "Classic Sonic but in 3D" is that the "but in 3D" part is the justification for why certain things are as they are in SRB2, despite the fact that they are different in Classic Sonic.

I don't think "SRB2 is like Classic Sonic" and "SRB2 is not a Classic Sonic game" are necessarily conflicting viewpoints. SRB2 attempts to do things that Classic Sonic does, but in 3D. SRB2 also does not do some things Classic Sonic did because of the limitations, comparatively, of being a 2D game, whereas SRB2 is 3D, and can expand upon those things and make them more useful, more polished, etc.
 
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No other character in the game can enter a spin-sized hitbox with their abilities.
Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are all set to their spinheight when jumping/flying/gliding, it would ironically be easier for Tails or Knuckles to get in the hole.
 

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