Special Stages Thoughts and Criticism
- Thread starter Pyrakid Wolfo
- Start date
I think the most interesting aspect about the NiGHTS stages has more to do with its forced 2.5D axis than it does the rest of the core game mechanics. There's no reason why we should necessarily be copying off of the official Sonic games, especially considering that SRB2 already has a full 3D perspective.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
On that note, what if we made the special stages platforming challenges like I suggested in my previous post, except they are fully 2D sections? Especially if the physics are being adjusted to feel more like the classic games, it could make for a nice homage to how those games played while also giving the 2.5D more of a reason to exist outside NiGHTS mode.
Agreed 100%, I'll be happy if I never have to go through those again.
GrayAngel
Member
I'd rather not replace NiGHTS stages outright. Too much work went into them to just be discarded. Plus, they are fun once you get the hang of them. But if there were to be Sonic 3 & Knuckles style Bonus Stages added, those could maybe make use of 2.5D platforming. But I'm not sure if that idea is worth the effort, since many would probably just ignore them anyway. Maybe if there are some unique powerups you can only get from them, like new shields or something? Might also make that one emblem you need the Armageddon Shield for in Azure Temple Zone a little bit easier if you can get it from a Bonus Stage too.
I've said this many other times in the past:
I love playing NiGHTS, and I love that it's in SRB2. However, I don't like it as the Special Stage format because it kind of undermines everything that's fun about NiGHTS. The gameplay style is a huge time sink. NiGHTS also is *wildly* different if you run through through it, compared to taking your time to score attack it. It loses a lot of the appeal just trying to get it over with... but doing that takes way too much time from the actual game.
I understand that taking extra time to complete them is a Special Stage staple with Blue Spheres; you can beat it normally, or go for all the rings and get a Perfect. The main difference for me is that it's a hell of a lot quicker, and that both approaches to Blue Spheres are enjoyable. A rushed run to get the Chaos Emerald in NiGHTS can take longer than getting a Perfect in Blue Spheres. Getting a Perfect is also just... Blue Spheres Hard Mode. It doesn't change how enjoyable the mode is, it's just if you already like it and want extra challenge. Whereas rushing NiGHTS is pretty much a completely different experience from score attacking it, and it's a lot less fun to rush it. There's probably at least one person in here who are complaining about NiGHTS not being fun because they haven't even tried doing score attack and just think rushing the Emerald is lame. And they'd be completely right! :p
My ideal scenario would be keeping NiGHTS as bonus content since there has been a lot of effort poured into it and it's legitimately good, but it just doesn't work as Special Stages. I sometimes literally boot up SRB2 to play NiGHTS, because it's honestly one of the best NiGHTS fan games out there, nothing else comes close to it. But I don't really want to play both gameplay types in one session, they're at odds with each other.
I love playing NiGHTS, and I love that it's in SRB2. However, I don't like it as the Special Stage format because it kind of undermines everything that's fun about NiGHTS. The gameplay style is a huge time sink. NiGHTS also is *wildly* different if you run through through it, compared to taking your time to score attack it. It loses a lot of the appeal just trying to get it over with... but doing that takes way too much time from the actual game.
I understand that taking extra time to complete them is a Special Stage staple with Blue Spheres; you can beat it normally, or go for all the rings and get a Perfect. The main difference for me is that it's a hell of a lot quicker, and that both approaches to Blue Spheres are enjoyable. A rushed run to get the Chaos Emerald in NiGHTS can take longer than getting a Perfect in Blue Spheres. Getting a Perfect is also just... Blue Spheres Hard Mode. It doesn't change how enjoyable the mode is, it's just if you already like it and want extra challenge. Whereas rushing NiGHTS is pretty much a completely different experience from score attacking it, and it's a lot less fun to rush it. There's probably at least one person in here who are complaining about NiGHTS not being fun because they haven't even tried doing score attack and just think rushing the Emerald is lame. And they'd be completely right! :p
My ideal scenario would be keeping NiGHTS as bonus content since there has been a lot of effort poured into it and it's legitimately good, but it just doesn't work as Special Stages. I sometimes literally boot up SRB2 to play NiGHTS, because it's honestly one of the best NiGHTS fan games out there, nothing else comes close to it. But I don't really want to play both gameplay types in one session, they're at odds with each other.
I've had similar ideas workshopped in my head. I think with enough work it could be turned into something.
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
I'm not sure how I feel about putting bonus stages where you can get shields into SRB2. If the stages are to be entered at star posts or something, it feels like it would make record attacking levels significantly different from playing them normally, since record attack doesn't have star posts. Also, those stages would fit better in SRB2 if whirlwind wasn't by far the best shield (don't @ me).
Also, despite the issues I have with NiGHTS special stages in their current form, I'd be really sad if they were taken out or relegated to some bonus content. They're fun levels, just a bit weird to intersperse the single player campaign with.
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Seaballer
unstoppable NiD fangirling
oop sorry I almost missed this
elaborating a bit more, I think both have their own merits. NiD is very arcadey, so the mentality of "having to work hard to get a combo" applies very well, but I think the way the special stages spoonfeed you your combos with a bunch of items back to back really gets the adrenaline going, and this "emulation" of speed fits really well; after all, it's a Sonic game
both NiD and SRB2 NiGHTS are great, they just show off their awesomeness through different methods (though anything is more enjoyable than JoD LOL)
and I use d-pad because I can't grind for unreasonably high rainbow a records on controller, it's too slippery, and srb2 as a whole wasn't really ever built for controller up until recently lol
Pyrakid Wolfo
Member
If we're doing anything 2.5D we need the 2.5D engine revamped, currently (harsh but its my belief) the 2D physics feel not very good. Apparantly in 3.0 they're gonna revamp the 3D physics which will definitely improve the game, but i hope they go the extra mile to make the 2.5D physics feel "good" at least if not "great", "awesome", "outstanding", or "AMAZING".
StellarStardust
I am the perfect and elegant maid~
I'm gonna be honest, apart from SS7... I actually really like the NiGHTs stages, but I feel like they don't fit as special stages in my opinion due to feeling out of place compared to everything else. I think this may be the same case as the Puyo Puyo boss CPZ2 has in Mania??? I feel like if this has to be replaced with a different idea completely, that the NiGHTs stages should be moved to be a unlockable of sorts at least. Mainly because there's so much work that's been put here that shouldn't go to waste. Also bonus stages for SRB2 sound nice.
GrayAngel
Member
Aren't Special Stages always out of place in Sonic games? You never do half pipes in Sonic 2 apart from them. Or do Blue Spheres in Sonic 3. Or chase UFOs in Mania. They've always been these challenges with completely different mechanics from the rest of the game. SRB2's Special Stages are at least based on another SEGA title.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
This is largely true, but compared to most other Special Stages, SRB2's are rather out of place as well. Special Stages are usually just minigames that are rather simple and straightforward. NiGHTS however is fleshed out to the point that it could be (and is) it's own entire game, and has an entire skill ladder to climb.
I generally agree with the notion that NiGHTS mode shouldn't be outright removed, it is a fun side distraction. However, something more straightforward would probably work better, and indeed something that plays more closely to the primary gameplay would be innovative in that the player wouldn't be thrusted into an entirely new gameplay style that they have to master just to unlock the Chaos Emeralds, something that the majority of other games don't do (The only potential exception I can think of is Rush Adventure).
This is why I like the idea of 2.5D platforming challenges for the special stages. While the physics we have for 2.5D now leave a lot to be desired, with enough refinement it could become a very fun game mode. 2.5D being restricted to special stages in the main campaign would give 2.5D a reason to exist without being invasive in the main levels, and the mode would still be there for anyone who wants to make custom levels in that style. Anyone who still likes the NiGHTS levels could then still play them, they would just have to access them through the NiGHTS Mode menu.
StellarStardust
I am the perfect and elegant maid~
Exactly what I mean. Usually, special stages are straight to the point and build the difficulty by adding more as you go along(sometimes) or more complex layouts. Navigate through a rotating maze, collect rings in a halfpipe, collect all the blue spheres, that sort of thing. But NiGHTs... is too fleshed out to be a special stage imo. Not saying that the stages are bad, nothing of the sort actually. Just that maybe something else should take it's place as the special stages, that's all.
Steelie
Haunted by a couple big mistakes
Frankly its drastic departure from SRB2's gameplay style and the sole fact I could never enjoy them put me into the camp that wants them gone from the main game for good. It's prime bonus content material, both from its atypicality and how much effort was put into them in the first place, but I don't believe they should be left as special stages. Not to mention any criticism I ever threw in its way was met with stubborn "git gud" commentary which only demotivated me further and made me grow personal disdain for them. Something like Mania's special stages would work much better, both with SRB2's gameplay style as well as aesthetic, though that's up for debate.
BizarreWolf
Member
Personally, I really like the NiGHTS stages, especially because it's the only experience I have with NiGHTS, so I would be really disappointed to see them removed from the game entirely. But I do agree that this gameplay style does not fit well for Special Stages.
In the official games, they are minigames. They are short and don't take long to beat. SRB2's special stages, however, take way too long, more so if you try aiming for A ranks. Even if you mess up, you're forced to wait for the timer to run out, unlike special stages in other games, which generally kick you out immediately.
Maybe the gameplay style could still work though if the special stages were greatly reworked. For example, instead of having to go through a long course, the spheres would be scattered in a much shorter arena, the Ideya Capture would be located near the spawn, and the stage would end as soon as you get the emerald. Non-emerald stages would still follow the standard NiGHTS format, though.
In the official games, they are minigames. They are short and don't take long to beat. SRB2's special stages, however, take way too long, more so if you try aiming for A ranks. Even if you mess up, you're forced to wait for the timer to run out, unlike special stages in other games, which generally kick you out immediately.
Maybe the gameplay style could still work though if the special stages were greatly reworked. For example, instead of having to go through a long course, the spheres would be scattered in a much shorter arena, the Ideya Capture would be located near the spawn, and the stage would end as soon as you get the emerald. Non-emerald stages would still follow the standard NiGHTS format, though.
Saturn Ross
The Local Bird-Brain
The Special Stages as they are right now are, honestly my favorite in any Sonic game. Mania is a close second for how well it fleshed out CD's special stage style, and in a way, I feel that kind of mentality can apply here- the NiGHTS special stages are incredible fun, but they can be fleshed out further and improved upon, like the jump from CD to Mania.
I do agree that they are fairly long, but when you get into Dream Hill and Alpine Heights, the length makes sense as they're full stages instead of bonus levels. The main 7 levels can be shortened ever so slightly, as I'm happy with their length personally but I see why others find them too long.
Honestly, my major gripes are with how it's very very easy to miss spheres and rings by a few pixels and how some look visually.
If the spheres slightly gravitated towards Sonic, like when you get the Nightopian Helper, you could focus more on speeding through the stages and get that awesome feeling of flight from the original game- compared to getting angry at Dusty Canyon and Magma Caves for missing just one sphere and missing out on an emerald because of it.
Speaking of Magma Caves... it could get a serious visual overhaul to use assets from the main game better, and not blind me with redhot lava- which hides a few flame hazards partway in and that kills my runs in that level far too often, either because I need to go exceptionally slow or I hit fire that I couldn't see clearly- and both cut down the timer. As for other stages visually, they could benefit from slopes and maybe easier to see hazards.
The other stages are just fine, difficulty-wise. For example, Egg Satellite is hard as hell but in a fun way- you can clearly see the lasers (which for the record, you can bounce off them at specific angles without taking damage), and the shrinking gimmick is neat! I however have yet to play Black Hole, and apparently that one is too hard for far too many.
I do agree that they are fairly long, but when you get into Dream Hill and Alpine Heights, the length makes sense as they're full stages instead of bonus levels. The main 7 levels can be shortened ever so slightly, as I'm happy with their length personally but I see why others find them too long.
Honestly, my major gripes are with how it's very very easy to miss spheres and rings by a few pixels and how some look visually.
If the spheres slightly gravitated towards Sonic, like when you get the Nightopian Helper, you could focus more on speeding through the stages and get that awesome feeling of flight from the original game- compared to getting angry at Dusty Canyon and Magma Caves for missing just one sphere and missing out on an emerald because of it.
Speaking of Magma Caves... it could get a serious visual overhaul to use assets from the main game better, and not blind me with redhot lava- which hides a few flame hazards partway in and that kills my runs in that level far too often, either because I need to go exceptionally slow or I hit fire that I couldn't see clearly- and both cut down the timer. As for other stages visually, they could benefit from slopes and maybe easier to see hazards.
The other stages are just fine, difficulty-wise. For example, Egg Satellite is hard as hell but in a fun way- you can clearly see the lasers (which for the record, you can bounce off them at specific angles without taking damage), and the shrinking gimmick is neat! I however have yet to play Black Hole, and apparently that one is too hard for far too many.
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
The more I think about it, the more Dusty Wasteland is my favorite of SRB2's special stages by a long shot. It feels very to the point compared to the others, with a strict sphere limit and cactus hazards keeping you on your toes and really feeling like a tense special stage. Doesn't overstay its welcome or drag on with crazy gimmicks. I wish the other special stages were more like Dusty Wasteland in execution—makes sense because layout-wise, that one is the newest, having been completely remade from its 2.1 version.
sluggard
Formerly "RomioTheBadass"
I think the current Special Stages are fine, but I find myself deliberately avoiding finding tokens after first playthroughs, I feel like the Special Stages drag on for too long and aren't very "special" to play after first playthroughs.
I do agree that Dusty Wasteland is really good though, you have less time to get the emerald and it feels a lot more exciting to play. If future releases ever decide to update the rest of the Special Stages more I hope they're going to be more like it.
I do agree that Dusty Wasteland is really good though, you have less time to get the emerald and it feels a lot more exciting to play. If future releases ever decide to update the rest of the Special Stages more I hope they're going to be more like it.
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