The issue is that with the way srb2 works currently, you can't really gain and/or retain speedbecause of the friction in the game.
Sonic's Ability Discussion
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BlazeHedgehog
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Just happened to be around the forums and decided I could probably put my two cents in here.
1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok?
I think it's fine. When you look in the directions Sonic Team's gone with Sonic, it fits. Sonic 2 was improved by the Spindash for helping Sonic recover lost momentum. Sonic 3 toyed with the ideas of letting Sonic charge a spindash in mid-air (aka the drop dash), or give Sonic some kind of air dash. It's all about implementing natural ways to recover lost speed more quickly. There's nothing wrong with it.
2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could?
The real controversial thing I'd say is that I like the homing attack. Especially in SRB2, even if the thok is fine, Sonic feels really disadvantaged compared to Tails and (more notably) Knuckles. SRB2 really feels like a game built for Knuckles first, when Sonic is meant to be the headliner. I know people will call the homing attack OP, but Sonic currently feels under powered, so giving him some more strength BESIDES "go fast air dash" is fine in my books.
That doesn't solve the problem of mobility, though, I guess. The bounce attack or a double jump would also help a lot, but those wouldn't be in keeping with the idea of helping Sonic recover lost speed. I'd suggest maybe the thok could also have a kind of double jump ability, like maybe it angles you up when you use it (like a long jump) but I don't know if that would make distances harder to judge or not.
3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle?
This is where I should probably abstain because I've been playing SRB2 since a time before you could even play as Tails or Knuckles. It was kind of sink-or-swim for me, so I had to get used to playing as Sonic as there was no other option. But that also has given me the unique perspective where I've sort of watched this game transform in to something that is blatantly a more rich and rewarding experience for the characters with a greater range of mobility. Sonic and the thok is fine conceptually, but the game doesn't always feel like it was made for him.
1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok?
I think it's fine. When you look in the directions Sonic Team's gone with Sonic, it fits. Sonic 2 was improved by the Spindash for helping Sonic recover lost momentum. Sonic 3 toyed with the ideas of letting Sonic charge a spindash in mid-air (aka the drop dash), or give Sonic some kind of air dash. It's all about implementing natural ways to recover lost speed more quickly. There's nothing wrong with it.
2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could?
The real controversial thing I'd say is that I like the homing attack. Especially in SRB2, even if the thok is fine, Sonic feels really disadvantaged compared to Tails and (more notably) Knuckles. SRB2 really feels like a game built for Knuckles first, when Sonic is meant to be the headliner. I know people will call the homing attack OP, but Sonic currently feels under powered, so giving him some more strength BESIDES "go fast air dash" is fine in my books.
That doesn't solve the problem of mobility, though, I guess. The bounce attack or a double jump would also help a lot, but those wouldn't be in keeping with the idea of helping Sonic recover lost speed. I'd suggest maybe the thok could also have a kind of double jump ability, like maybe it angles you up when you use it (like a long jump) but I don't know if that would make distances harder to judge or not.
3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle?
This is where I should probably abstain because I've been playing SRB2 since a time before you could even play as Tails or Knuckles. It was kind of sink-or-swim for me, so I had to get used to playing as Sonic as there was no other option. But that also has given me the unique perspective where I've sort of watched this game transform in to something that is blatantly a more rich and rewarding experience for the characters with a greater range of mobility. Sonic and the thok is fine conceptually, but the game doesn't always feel like it was made for him.
Solid SOAP
Member
Agreed. I like Sonic as a "hard" character but I think utilizing Tails like this would go a long way. I like the idea that Tails is easier to activate, but more restricted. I recommended a similar change a few pages back.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
It just makes a lot of sense when you think about it. We have mostly all been focused on changing Sonic's air ability to something like Double Jump or something similar, or expanding on the moveset with new moves activated via spin in midair or etc. However, Sonic as a character actually has an additional option. You can have Tails following him. This is a great opportunity to have the "easy" character assist Sonic so that he's not so hard, while still keeping the gameplay different from playing as Tails directly. In addition, it's a great opportunity to introduce the player to the Custom 1 button in a way that is easy to memorize and use, so as to make addons that make use of the button easier to transition into.
Magnemania
Member
Tails being somewhat tedious to activate encourages players to at least look at a platforming segment, decide whether they have the confidence to try it, and potentially even give it a few attempts before skipping it with Tails.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
While I can appreciate the mindset behind this design, I would rather Tails being tedious to use rather than tedious to activate to encourage this kind of behavior. Players are drawn to Sonic games generally with the expectation that they are going to go fast. A mechanic that requires you to go full stop and then jump to activate is a little overkill when it comes to a mechanic, it goes a bit too far and instead of just encouraging players to give a platforming segment a fair shake first, it's at extreme risk of making players not want to use the mechanic hardly at all. Especially when you can just play as Tails and get access to better flight anyway.
This is why I lean more in favor of a nerfed but more accessible Tailsbot. Make it less viable for skipping sections but still exist as a height gaining and corrective tool to help beginners. A significant reduction to how high Tailsbot can carry Sonic and an inability to move forward with the carrying would make it so Sonic's only mobility options after Tails grabs him are to jump out of the grab and possibly thok, limiting the usefulness for skipping sections but making it entirely possible to use for recovery or for getting up to a ledge a little bit out of reach.
izzy
has died
By holding Spin before hitting the ground after a Comet Dash, you can retain some of your speed and get another Comet Dash charge so you can control yourself.
I'm liking time gear's idea of more accessible, weaker Tails. Maybe even Tails shouldn't gain height at all, or only gain a little before leveling out and maintaining height. This way it would be more of a corrective tool for missed jumps rather than allowing a player to skip obstacles entirely.
This seems like a good opportunity to shamelessly plug my sonic and tails reworks, where tails does almost exactly that (except 3 times instead of 1 time)
Unknownlight
Member
I disagree with changing Tailsbot rather than changing Sonic. It has more to do with player psychology rather than effectiveness.
The whole purpose behind changing Sonic to be more accessible is to make the game more fun for brand new players. It's fun to be good at a game; it's fun to feel powerful. Using Tails feels like cheating. Even though it helps new players not get frustrated as much, it doesn't make them feel satisfied with the gameplay.
The whole purpose behind changing Sonic to be more accessible is to make the game more fun for brand new players. It's fun to be good at a game; it's fun to feel powerful. Using Tails feels like cheating. Even though it helps new players not get frustrated as much, it doesn't make them feel satisfied with the gameplay.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
I disagree. While using Tails might feel like cheating the way he works now, that definitely does not need to be the case. This is the precise reason why I feel he should be nerfed. So that he feels like a helpful tool Sonic has at his disposal rather than an outright cheat you can abuse.
The problem with changing Sonic's moveset directly instead of changing Tails is that you are forcing change on people who have gotten used to playing Sonic a certain way for decades, so it better be amazing change or people are going to be turned off by it. Tails on the other hand is an accessory to make use of. It allows Sonic to stay as an advanced character without alienating new players who wish to use him, as they can make use of Tails' assist mode to help them out when needed. Advanced players can play as Sonic alone, Beginners can play as Sonic and Tails. Therefore, Sonic is accessible regardless of how big of a veteran you are and doesn't give anyone (Or at least anywhere near as many people) a feeling of being considered less important by the devs than anyone else. The only real risk of alienation with this move is people who want Tailsbot to be overpowered and to be able to carry Sonic really high and far.
Moose the Fat Cat
Member
I still have not read an explanation for why this is controversial? It seems to be the clear solution. The Thok is fun. The Thok isn't the issue.
The issue is that --- has there ever been a first-time player who hit those 3 springs in Greenflower 2 on the first attempt?
Ever? If that percentage isn't 0%, I'd be honestly shocked if it were much higher.
Think about the way Tails solves that issue for Sonic... it's frustrating! You want to be able to jump on the springs! Springs are Sonic's whole thing!
The game suggests to the player, this is your opportunity to learn to aim your jumps and control your momentum when propelled by spring physics. I would suggest, that is a lesson that is going to alienate potential players because it is odd to assume that the player needs to learn to hit springs as Sonic; the assumption is this comes naturally.
So, how to solve?
—Change nothing?
Someone said "if it's broke, don't fix it" -- you know, if Sonic (in a Sonic game) is not accessible to new players, then something's not working.
—Rework the entire game design and physics?
Unless you're changing the game to 2D or making Sonic significantly slower, this will never totally solve the issue.
—Rework Sonic's thok to have a greater deal of accuracy and control?
Maybe. That's what's being attempted now through various mods. The Thok is only a problem if it's trying to replace the Homing Attack, conceptually. The Thok is an aerial version of "Boost" or "Spin Dash." It's not an unguided version of "Homing."
—Simply add the Homing Attack in addition to the Thok?
For some reason this is "controversial" but I haven't seen an explanation that makes sense as to why that is.
I've seen timegear explain that it would break the level design, and others suggest that homing ruins it for long-time players. I've seen Mystic's posts explaining that it's his preference to keep the "game feel" -- which is to say, that "Classic" Sonic remains with his "classic" moveset not to incorporate anything from the "modern" Sonic games. That a Homing Attack, even the unchained version from the Magnet shield, would simply empower the player too much.
That's fine as a preference, but to impose it as the only acceptable way to control "true" Sonic in a 3D environment... because of some fan culture war of "classic v modern"... it's just needlessly limiting the overall success of this project. (And I get it, a lot of fans prefer things to be exclusive and don't like when their favorite indie thing gets popular, but that's obviously not the logical choice, it's the emotional one.)
It* prevents SRB2 from being a very unifying Sonic game that blends the best of "classic" and "modern" into a cohesive 3D Sonic that feels true to its roots and demonstrates a very convincing new path forward for level design in a Sonic game.
*
It = Sonic's self-imposed additional difficulty by excluding Homing despite the obvious benefits to the new player.
Homing is like "Automatic or Manual" for Sonic's jump attack. I understand driving manually is better for the purist. But some people prefer to drive automatic so they can better enjoy the scenery, rather than the gear work.
Homing being over powered is a virtue. Sonic should be the most over powered character.
---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 AM ----------
The problem with this particular viewpoint is it's, in my humble opinion, extremely bad. This is just the "sunk cost" fallacy, or the "tradition over progress" viewpoint.
Moveset changes can be implemented as optional. Decades-long players will still play; their preferences can still be available. Even if they're not in the base game, the decades-long player is going to be more adept at finding what they want through Mods than the new player. Right?
The point should be to be welcoming new players, not drawing a line between these two groups, like they can't co-exist. There are many solutions, but very little is possible when the opposition is coming from a tribal mentality of "us vs them."
time gear
Eternity in an hour
It's not so much that the Homing Attack is overpowered (It's not) or even that it would break level design (Rather, the level design in SRB2 simply isn't made for it so Homing attack itself is less useful than one would imagine. You can't hit anything with it you wouldn't be able to hit anyway). The problem is that the Homing Attack fails in one critical regard compared to other moves in the game: Mobility. Because the levels aren't designed around homing chains, the Homing Attack doesn't help the player reach anywhere they can't get to by simply jumping normally or by thokking instead. As a result, compared to the thok it is much more limited on account of the fact that it will always activate if there's a valid target in range. You either use the homing attack, or you don't have any other option other than to jump normally. Regardless of if it only targets badniks or can also target things like springs, this brings you at risk of using it when you don't want to and potentially dying because of it.
SMS Reborn attempts to solve this issue by making it so it doesn't home in on valid targets unless you press a button to activate the lock on. This is an interesting idea in concept, however trying to hold a button other than jump down to make the double jump action different is rather awkward.
There's also the problem of how the homing attack hits enemies at the same speed every time and bounces up the same distance every time, only compounding the problem of how the homing attack doesn't contribute to mobility. The attraction shield solves this issue and isn't character bound. Needing to find the shield to make use of it also allows the devs to decide when they want to encourage the player to make use of this particular mechanic in the level design and when not to.
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to Homing Attack as a toggle for if the player really wants it, but Mystic seems generally opposed to adding in toggles for things like this so I really wouldn't get your hopes up for it.
Overall, between Homing Attack and Thok, the thok is simply just a lot more useful a lot more often than the Homing Attack would be. The Homing Attack simply doesn't provide much in the way of a platforming utility since it can only hit things lower than Sonic himself, whereas the thok gives Sonic easy access to a burst of air speed that can help him cover great distances regardless of the presence of things to hit with it. The only way the homing attack would help with platforming would be if there were simple enemies placed on platforms for the player to home into to help them land on the platforms, but this isn't really much different from homing chain mentality and isn't as practical as the open ended nature of the thok.
You're misunderstanding me. No such tribalism is what I am trying to convey. Quite the opposite, actually. By modifying Tailsbot instead of Sonic himself, you have the potential to satisfy both types of players. New players have a utility to make use of to enjoy playing as Sonic, old players have the familiar playstyle they have used for decades. I don't really see how this is tribalism or "tradition over progress". I have never had a "tradition over progress" mindset, I just feel like progress shouldn't come at the expense of tradition when tradition works just fine. The thok is fine. It could probably use a few tweaks, but it doesn't need to be transformed into an entire different move. Simply changing Tailsbot to focus on new players allows whatever changes are made to the thok to be done with efficiency in mind rather than purely making him more accessible to newbies, as this goal is already achieved by changing Tailsbot.
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This is an actually unrelated issue, I think. The key on most of SRB2's spring chains is to do *nothing*, but if you're still holding a movement direction for even a few frames after hitting the first one it'll throw the whole thing off. This could be solved by implementing classic Sonic's Horizontal Control Lock.
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time gear
Eternity in an hour
Small little nitpick here but you quoted me, but that's actually a quote from the post above mine.
Tailsbot is fine as he is IMO. The fact they made him work just like in the 2d games is an impressive achievement, don't botch him now.
The 2d games didn't need to make Sonic dependent on Tails for platforming, so SRB2 shouldn't need to either. I feel they should fix Sonic so that he's easier to handle and more platforming-friendly instead. If oldbies miss the thok, they can always give it to Metal Sonic, or make it an add-on.
The 2d games didn't need to make Sonic dependent on Tails for platforming, so SRB2 shouldn't need to either. I feel they should fix Sonic so that he's easier to handle and more platforming-friendly instead. If oldbies miss the thok, they can always give it to Metal Sonic, or make it an add-on.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Myself and quite a few other veterans are heavily against moving the thok to a character that needs to be unlocked, and it would be far worse to be restricted to add-ons since those disable progress. To understand how we feel about it, imagine if Tails was your main and suddenly he was given the Double Jump instead of his fly and swim ability one update, and to make use of the old fly ability you had to unlock another character or worse, use an addon that disables progress. Players have been using thok Sonic for decades, and to suddenly not have access to their preferred playstyle right off the bat would be incredibly jarring, especially when there are other ways to make Sonic more accessible to new players than to remove or heavily change the thok.
To make such a change would be to make such players feel as though their preferences are considered unimportant by the devs compared to the prospect of attracting and keeping new players. This is why something such as changing Tailsbot is preferable, it allows Sonic to be more accessible to new players without giving players who like him just the way he is the middle finger.
Wosh
Idiot
I really don't understand how a homing attack would make Sonic easier though. I thought that Sonic's problem was that he can't gain extra height by himself or recover vertically at all which makes later platforming challenges very difficult and punishing for new players. A homing attack isn't going to change that though, it's fun and satisfying sure but it doesn't fix the core issues with Sonic being too difficult for new players. Homing onto springs doesn't really make the game that much easier, it's just fun. Killing enemies with it also doesn't really help the core issue, it's just satisfying. It also would become difficult when so many enemies aren't designed around it. You aren't going to be homing attacking those shield guys or the turtles or Crushtaceans any time soon. And if you're in an area with enemies and springs, chaos inevitably ensues. I just don't think it's going to really help Sonic where it counts, it would require level design changes and also a rework of the magnet shield ability. A jump dash or a higher jump or something would at least solve some of the issues Sonic has for newcomers and give him a break in the more demanding levels.
Edit: I wrote this before seeing newer replies by time gear that basically say this but better lol. Still, I agree with the sentiments.
Edit: I wrote this before seeing newer replies by time gear that basically say this but better lol. Still, I agree with the sentiments.
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Unknownlight
Member
You totally misunderstood what those three springs are trying to teach you. You are not supposed to manually aim spring jumps. Springs always chain together correctly as long as you don't touch the controls whatsoever. The lesson it's trying to teach is that you always have control over your character, even during spring jumps. In that particular case, if you're doing a speedrun, it's faster to avoid the third spring.
Overall, I think the spring physics are a mistake. There should be half-second grace period between touching a spring and regaining control over your character.
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