It's all kinda a dead-end argument anyways because a new player wouldn't have made it back to the platform no matter what Sonic's ability is. In order to make it back with the thok, for example, the new player needs to be able to realize they've made a mistake and then turn around to use their ability backwards. That's something an experienced player can do in quick order, but it's not something a newbie will have the reaction time and muscle memory to accomplish. In all of those cases involving Sonic, the newbie would fall into the pit.
It's important to remember that we're not talking about what experienced players can do with the thok or any other ability. We're talking about what a novice can accomplish with the ability. Thus things like saving themselves with twitch reaction time aren't a relevant part of the equation here.
Regarding the homing attack and jump-thok, it feels like you're on the right path with how to think of them, but stop short before thinking about how the issues can possibly be resolved.
With the homing attack, you don't necessarily have to have Sonic lose all horizontal momentum after hitting an enemy, and it doesn't necessarily need to be chainable either. Could even make Sonic exit his jump frames after using it to make it him vulnerable, and differentiate it from the magnet shield.
As for the jump-thok, it's definitely always going to reset both your horizontal and vertical momentum, but it doesn't necessarily have to make you slow down horizontally.
For both though, the issue of needing a twitch reaction to save yourself, unfortunately, comes from the abilities currently always targeting the direction you're looking. On a controller at least it's far slower to turn around using the right analog stick to use the ability than it would be to hold back on the left analog stick and use it.
I read Mystic's post and gave it some thought and wanted to attempt a full reply. It's fun to think about. Everything is a matter of opinion, but it's fun to think and talk about, and it's cool to read everybody's take on it.
Where I'm Coming From:
—When did I join? A month ago? Been playing for a month or two? Playing 2.2.0 on Mac OS on Switch gamepad. Newbie. Been sharing my thoughts for the fun of it and also I feel like newbie is a good perspective to share. Some opinions have evolved and changed as I replay more or reconsider.
—Completed the game as S&T and K, though not Azure Temple still; replayed but didn't complete Fang/Amy/Metal/Sonic/Tails solo runs. Mostly replay as either Sonic & Tails or Knuckles on the complete files, as they are the characters I enjoy most anyway. I've been hunting for emblems, and even with the hints still unsuccessful on most of them, but then I usually just end up making up missions for myself. "Kill all enemies" or "get every ring" allow me to hang out in favorite Acts and find new things and run in a route made circuitous and new with the new objective.
—I love this game. It's become a slight manic obsession that is starting to wear off but I already feel like it's become my favorite in the series, or top 3. It's without question the best 3D Sonic game that I've ever played. It's made me revisit the modern games on Xbox recently... SA1, SA2, Unleashed, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic CD, Generations, Forces... all of these games suck, honestly. I loved some more than others, and SA1 and SA2 more at the time. Still haven't played Heroes. Anyway. I've tried going back. It's a mistake. They're unplayable now. Honestly. Also, by the way, SRB2's camera is infinitely better than SA1 and SA2, by a mile, an infinite mile. The modern games don't have camera issues because they're linear and have as much to explore as the Sonic Dash mobile game. So, if what you want to do is run around as Sonic, exploring various Zones and spinning through robots to free the animals from the evil egg-shaped industrialist, like the Genesis games but in 3D, I haven't found better than SRB2. Maybe there's other ones I haven't played, Sonic Utopia and most other fangames don't have Mac versions. So it's very awesome that y'all dedicated time to the Mac OS port because it connected me with the most enjoyable 3D Sonic game.
There's a lot of salient points in there, a lot of things that I agree with whole heartedly, and some things we don't agree on... although I was surprised how much closer we are than further apart!
Overview before getting into the post, point by point.
Goal: Make Sonic more user-friendly, particularly for new players, without alienating existing core base. Goal: Any new move must be Simple to understand, Easy to use, and Gets Along well with the existing level design. Simple, Easy, Gets Along.
1. You favor Double Jump
2. You also like Jump Thok
3. Your least favorite is Homing Attack
4. Any changes to vanilla Sonic's ability would require level design changes
Overview of my response
1. Awesome, I love the double jump!
2. Hell yeah, I love the jump thok!
3. All due respect but I think you are overthinking it
4. I think the levels can just be the levels as they are, at least in relation to Sonic's ability. The levels can / ought to still be designed with Thok-only in mind, particularly if (as many have suggested) Metal assumes that moveset. The levels are designed with the hardest character in mind; Sonic is the hardest character but with Thok++ becomes the easiest character. New moves for the newbies are toggle-able, like autobrake; lock-on technology controls in the menu to turn off everything except Thok. That might seem gaudy, like Sonic 3 & Knuckles in the 32X with the Sega CD Neptune but for the controls. But I think it's actually very Simple, Easy, and Gets Along perfectly well. It's cheesier, easier, squeezier peazier.
tl;dr New and Improved Suggestion:
Triple Dash
Hey kids! Sonic now has three dashes for three dimensions!
Controls:
Spin = Spin (hold to charge a Spin Dash)
Jump = Jump (press twice to Double Dash)
Jump, Spin = Air Dash (powerful mid-air burst forward in the direction you're facing) or Shield Ability (when equipped)
Two buttons!
Menu options:
Auto-Aim: ON/off (targets double jump at the nearest enemy, item, or spring)
Autobrake: ON/off
Spin Dash: ON/off ("spin" becomes roll only or Thok)
Double Dash: ON/off
Air Dash Override: on/OFF ("on" cancels Shield Ability in favor of Thok)
Thok only: on/OFF (replaces Double Dash; can't be used with Auto-Aim; recommended for advanced players)
For Metal Sonic, his menu options are set with Thok only ON. But you could, maybe, also turn Metal's handicaps on to match Sonic's, it's just not default. (It's kinda like in the OVA where Metal can mirror Sonic exactly!)You still need to have the option where Sonic can go against Metal in BC2 where both only have the thok (and Metal's spike burst power), I think, even if a Double Dash would make the upside down volcano room significantly less painful. Which, I'm saying, is a good thing!
So, this thread seems to be missing the point in a lot of places. The problem is that Sonic is way too difficult for new players to use. New players select their character based on who is their favorite, not what the description text says they should do. That's the core issue, and this core issue has been around for a long time. It turns out that in early 2.2 development, when we were first discussing having Metal in the game, one of the suggestions was exactly the thing I'm championing now, moving the thok to Metal and replacing Sonic's ability with something less newbie-hostile. The core issue both then and now is "what do we replace Sonic's ability with?"
New players will always choose Sonic in a Sonic game in the Sonic franchise, official or unofficial. It's a law of the universe, it's unavoidable.
So first off, let's remember some basic goals. Any new ability for Sonic needs to be the following:
Simple to understand. This doesn't necessarily mean simple overall and lacking depth, but it needs to be easy to grasp initially such that players don't struggle to figure it out. Unlockable characters are allowed to be complicated conceptually, but Sonic is part of the basic three and needs to be simple enough to figure out quickly.
Easy to use. This isn't the same as simple to understand, either. The thok is very simple to understand. Press jump twice and you go fast. It's not easy to use, though. We need the new ability to be easy to use effectively right from the start.
Work well with our level design. This sounds silly to say, but we've got a lot of levels that already exist designed around the abilities we already have. While minor changes can be made to levels that exist to support the new ability better, whatever the ability is would need to work well even in unmodified stages.
Keep what makes SRB2 unique. This is a lot more complicated than the other three and primarily has to do with how it affects momentum, so I'll get back to this a little later with some examples.
There's a lot to digest out of that, so I'm just going to start listing some abilities that people have brought up and check them against that list.
Homing Attack
This is a commonly requested ability for obvious reasons. It has become official Sonic's standard ability for a long time now. It's simple to understand and almost tooeasy to use. The first problem is that the homing attack not only doesn't mesh well with our level design, it encourages a completely different, more linear style of level design we don't want to encourage. When using the homing attack, enemies, springs, and other targetable objects become non-interactive beyond being that target. The player's goal becomes to mash jump through the targets as quickly as possible to move through a chain of objects efficiently.
It's easy to use, which is great! That's something we want. I don't feel like it's a mismatch with the level design; just the opposite, I like the way it guides through the level. It feels like a handicap but it's a nice option to have. Don't think of it as a homing attack, think of it as Auto Aim.
As for mashing, it's optional. You don't necessarily have to be doing that, and you'd only be engaging with what's already there -- the enemies, the springs or boxes -- it just helps guide the clumsy camera (well, what can feel like a clumsy camera to a newbie; more accurately it's my clumsy ass with the camera).
That it'd be easy is a virtue. Sonic should be easy. It's okay to be easy. Lower the gates! Let people in! SRB2 will still harder than any other Sonic game, both by vanilla default, and even more so with expert mode (thok only) possible within the menu options.
It would allow the new player to start with the training wheels on, and then also be able to experiment with what they like best and move to Thok only. I think it's all just one Sonic, but sometimes he's fighting with one arm tied behind his back because he enjoys the challenge.
Stopping to check something actually becomes counterproductive since so much efficiency is lost from landing and jumping again. This is entirely what led to modern Sonic's level design, being completely linear and based around optimizing the homing attack through areas that absolutely mandate its usage.
Emphasis mine; that's a big claim! I dunno. Otherwise I completely agree. What I don't like about modern Sonic level design is exactly what you're saying — linear, scripted, flashy but empty. Honestly, Modern Sonic gameplay is basically just the mobile Sonic Dash runner when you get down to it. You're running in a straight line non-stop, boosting and occasionally you roll or jump and homing attack. Scripted on a loop that increases in difficulty; it's like Pacman with Sonic. Anyway it doesn't matter because SRB2 is very clearly nothing like Adventure/Modern or any fangame in that model from the start.
I think all of your critiques on Adventure/Modern's level design and homing's usage are all on point, but they don't apply to the SRB2 levels, which are not linear, by design, and nothing changes that, even a guided auto aim. Even if you added a bunch of awful on-screen text, and voice over from a Chao with a squeaky voice, and Sonic saying "Aw yeah! Press jump twice to double jump, then spin to thok! Juicin'!" and also a non-stop in-picture Twitch stream of
The levels speak for themselves! I don't feel like levels would need to be drastically altered other than whatever revisions are already underway for the issues already known. It's about how the player engages with the levels, which are fun and open and multidimensional and thoughtful and interesting. But you can give the player more of a helping hand and it doesn't need to be breaking anything.
SRB2 plays nothing like Adventure/Modern because of the level design; SRB2 having Auto Aim doesn't make the game resemble Adventure/Modern any more than both feature a blue hedgehog that runs fast. It's in those games because it makes sense for 3D space with a jump spin attack. That the Modern games became something else entirely with more homing focused straight forward level design doesn't matter. SRB2's levels are the attraction. They don't need any changing, I really don't think, not on any fundamental way. Double Jump Thok with an optional Auto Aim is just giving newbie Sonic's a way to be overpowered cheese if they so choose. And that would be okay!! For veteran players, all of this can be menu toggles. New players will absolutely appreciate it. If they say, agh this is too easy. It's there in the menu.
Mods can add whatever else, drop dash and so on.
Two button gameplay
Jump, then Jump = "Double Dash" (double jump)
Jump, then Spin = "Air Dash (thok) / Shield Power (when equipped)
Auto-Aim (on/off) (homing for the double jump)
Auto-Brake (on/off)
Auto-Complete (you just watch someone competent do a run of the level first before you play, this started as a joke but now....)
Another problem is that it completely resets momentum. One of the things SRB2 tries to do wherever possible is to not reset parts of momentum that are not necessary to change. For instance, vertical springs don't need to reset your horizontal momentum, so they don't. Diagonal springs need to reset both horizontal and vertical, so they do. A huge part of what makes SRB2 what it is is that everything tries to keep your momentum as much as possible. In fact now Knuckles's glide, the previous exception, is following this as well. The homing attack is basically the exact opposite of this design. This is the reason why the attraction shield's activation doesn't reset momentum after usage, and the previous paragraph about level design is why it cannot be chained.
I guess it's a matter of opinion, I personally don't feel like it's a problem when I play with a homing mod. It helps me keep my momentum, it helps me move through the levels at a quick pace, even the difficult parts -- which is great because going fast as Sonic in SRB2 is a tremendous amount of fun. I wouldn't change the levels at all, at least not just for the sake of homing/auto aim.
True, any of this and especially homing does make Sonic a bit hoppier, but I don't think that's bad or unnatural or a mismatch for the Genesis.... Sonic is a Hedgehog, who are known for rolling into spiky balls. The games' momentum and design call to mind pinball because that's what it is - it's Speedy Mouse Mario as a pinball platformer. Slopes and bouncing on enemies/boxes/springs feels very very pinbally. And that's kind of what's missing from SRB2 -- it definitely nails the platformer part of Sonic, better than any game in the franchise. It could stand to be a bit more pinball, and the Homing Attack is like an extra bumper to account for the extra dimension.
Also, with regard to the Homing completely resetting momentum, this could be side-stepped if the Thok is on Jump + Spin, in conjunction with Homing as double Jump, since the Thok restarts with full speed, keeping the momentum seemingly unbroken.
Run full speed toward a pair of Crawlas. Jump, homing, homing, thok to pick up the run where I left off.
Finally, unlike a lot of the other suggestions to follow, there's an extra reason why the homing attack isn't being considered: you can already play a ton of 3D Sonic games that follow that formula. Just pick up one of the tons of official Sonic games if that gameplay style is what you're looking for. There can and will inevitably be mods for SRB2 that implement the homing attack, but our goal in vanilla isn't just to make an unofficial version of what SEGA is already making. We'd rather embrace something else and create something unique and different, like we have been for over two decades.
We need to forget about the baggage of homing attack. It's just Auto Aim. It is Auto Complete but for jumping in a platformer. It doesn't need to be anything more than a handicap option. It's a matter of opinion I guess but I don't feel like it breaks anything, I like it how it just helps direct your jump where you're intending to go. It's a crutch, but it's not automating the experience overall.
Open your heart, live and learn! It doesn't matter that it was in Adventure or Modern. I, personally, do not want that, and I don't want SRB2 to move its level design in that direction, at all! So, again, don't change the level design for the sake of homing. Homing works in SRB2, imo, ironically because it's not built with it in mind; it's why it feels, delightfully, like a cheat code. It's like playing Sonic 1 with the Spin Dash turned on, or the Spin Dash and Drop Dash turned on... the levels were definitely not built with them in mind. But I can tell you that Sonic 1 is much more fun to replay with both of those moves turned on.
It's good to empower the player, overpower them even, especially in a Sonic game! And especially in a Sonic game based in part on Doom, which is ALSO the most fun when you're ridiculously overpowered and mowing down demons, and best of all, Doom's difficulty is easily scaleable and optional.
The overall mindset that easy mode is somehow inferior... it's maybe the part of SRB2 that shows it's age the most. Nothing against Tails or the Character Select copy, but if a Sonic game is seriously suggesting that the best option for a beginner player is to not play as Sonic, it just feels like it's missing the bigger point. I know you know this; hence the conversation.
And I agree with your assessment on Homing and Level Design in Adventure/Modern. But I think there's a forest-for-the-trees blindspot with Homing in SRB2, by associating it too strongly with "other" Sonic and creating a bit of an unnecessary correlation and bias.
The goal isn't to spike the ball on Sonic Team Senior... not when the design and overall feel of SRB2 has already run up the score... the goal is to make Sonic simple, easy, gets along with the level design. Adventure/Modern has dull level design that overly services the Homing Attack, which is bad. SRB2's level design does not serve the homing attack whatsoever, which is good! Player gets the advantage.
I understand you think the Homing Attack breaks the level design, but I don't think you're giving the level design enough credit — they can withstand an easy to use accessibility option.
We just need to... rebrand it.
Double Dash Auto Aim: It's Not Homing!tm
Drop Dash
This is another commonly requested ability since Mania came out, being an official attempt at giving classic Sonic a new ability. However, there's even more wrong with this idea in SRB2. The drop dash is in fact quite hard to understand, being a delayed ability you press and hold for, requiring some time to activate in the air. It's also hard to use effectively, requiring you to hit the ground after holding to get any benefit from it. Additionally, while we have them now, slopes are not a constant in our level design to enable the drop dash to allow you to gain serious momentum going downhill after using it, limiting its use in our levels compared to Mania. Basically, the drop dash ends up just being a clunky, weaker thok. The problem we have with the thok isn't the power level, so the drop dash ends up adding extra steps for a weaker, even harder to use payoff. That's exactly the opposite of what we're attempting to accomplish here.
I will note, though, that in terms of theming and keeping SRB2 unique, the drop dash doesn't go against what SRB2 is about. It's simply clunky and even harder to get used to than the thok.
Fair enough! I don't really disagree, though I'd still probably enjoy an option that makes it possible to swap the Air Dash/Thok for the Drop Dash.
The former plays more aerially, the latter more on the ground. Both viable and fun ways to engage with the level design. Either way it's still a Triple Dash!
Jump Thok
This one has really vocal fans, but there are some significant issues here from a game design perspective. Understanding and ease of use aren't the issue, as the jump thok is pretty easy to understand and use. The level design handles it just fine, too. The problem is that momentum preservation thing. The jump thok resets momentum entirely by design. This makes sense considering it's a combination of a double jump (which resets vertical momentum) and the thok (which resets horizontal momentum). This makes the standard double jump, which I'll get to later, superior because it allows you to actually combine it with other effects, such as the spindash.
I'm on board! What about allowing both of these at the same time? Double Jump and Jump Thok? (See above!)
Insta-Shield
This is the last of the ones I'll go over that we shouldn't use, but I think more people at least understand why the insta-shield isn't in consideration. Sonic 3K proves quite dramatically that understanding is a massive problem. I know many people who beat the game without understanding any of the uses. Once the player understands what's going on, it's not too hard to use, although it does require good timing. That timing isn't all that hard in 2D but becomes incredibly difficult in 3D perspective. We tested this extensively for the force shield's ability in 2.0's development, and even in modes like ringslinger where reflecting projectiles and blocking damage sounds great in theory, it's extremely weak in practice. There are indeed places in our level design where the insta-shield could be used cleverly, but it's such a narrow mechanic that it's not viable overall.
Double Jump
Finally, this is the option I actively suggest. It's easy to understand and use, and has the benefit of being good for platforming while not trivializing things. I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of depth it has just because a lot of people have been using similar mechanics with the whirlwind shield for ages, but most of the time people aren't limited to just the double jump so many of the deeper things to do, like spindashing into it, aren't explored much. There's nothing wrong with it in our level design and it interacts well with the momentum mechanics we already have.
The only real issue is that it's simply not exciting. A double jump is such a basic part of video gaming at this point that nobody is going to gush over it. On the other hand, it's a staple of the genre and even has precedent in classic Sonic's official early 3D implementations in Sonic R. I think this is the way to go, barring a new, better idea we haven't thought of yet.
I'll gush over it, promise! Especially if the Double Jump had an automatic aim assist option, and still allowed the Thok on the other button, all of which could be a menu toggle, like autobrake, for the discerning veteran player.
New, better ideas
So, on that thought, I'd like to point out that the reason I'm suggesting the double jump isn't because I necessarily think it's perfect. We talked about using the double jump five years ago and decided against it after all. I'd love to hear of some miracle brilliant idea that solves our problems, should it exist. I just want to remind everyone before they spam their pet ideas in this thread that all four of the points above need to fit. In particular a lot of the ideas people put forth are exceptionally complicated and would overwhelm both newbies and my ability to write a description explaining it on the character select screen. Also, as a reminder, SRB2 is a strictly two-button, three-axis game. Even if your idea is otherwise flawless, if it requires a third button or replacing jump-spin, it's not going to fit our needs.
Strong agree except I do think Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles could have Jump+Spin abilities. Two buttons, jump and spin. Jump modifies jump and modifies spin. Two buttons and lots of versatility that feels intuitive and logical and overpowers the 3 characters who should be most overpowered.
We already have enough problems getting Amy working in our setup, after all.
It's kinda unfortunate we didn't go for changing it in early 2.2 dev and see what happens, but that's how it goes. We did at least discover that editing the thok doesn't really help, and just makes everyone super irritable. We're definitely not just reducing the power level of the thok because that is not the issue, no matter how much people complain about it. The point is that the thok is fun for a lot of people; if it wasn't fun we wouldn't still be here 20 years later, considering we designed around it and only it for a majority of those 20+ years. We just need to stop starting newbies with it because it's the most difficult ability to use and master, just like how we don't start newbies off in Azure Temple or Black Hole either.
I definitely think the Thok should stay, even in vanilla Sonic's advanced moveset (renamed the "Air Dash"), without change. The level design and the thok are both good! Neither need to change!
All that needs to change is acknowledging that, while good, it is very difficult especially for new players. How to make less difficult but keep the good? Overpower the player's first character with Simple, Easy, Greatly Accessible moves while maintaining simple and intuitive two button gameplay.
It's important to remember that we're not talking about what experienced players can do with the thok or any other ability. We're talking about what a novice can accomplish with the ability. Thus things like saving themselves with twitch reaction time aren't a relevant part of the equation here.
A novice wouldn't be able to do this? Turning backwards to save oneself is an extreme use case, but there's plenty of situations where using a tool that quickly sets Sonic's horizontal and vertical momentum in any direction to a consistent amount helps with platforming.
For both though, the issue of needing a twitch reaction to save yourself, unfortunately, comes from the abilities currently always targeting the direction you're looking. On a controller at least it's far slower to turn around using the right analog stick to use the ability than it would be to hold back on the left analog stick and use it.
If needing to turn around to save yourself from a poor jump is a problem for novice players, a simple backflip move would solve that quite easily. Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse at this point but it just seems to me like the most simple way to address that problem without necessarily needing to change physics/level design. Not that such things shouldn't be changed if deemed necessary, it's just that a backflip ability would allow a player to reverse their jump and they wouldn't have to touch the camera at all.
For clarification since my proposition seems to be getting compared to Pointy's ability a lot, I'm not talking about a straight port of that ability. I'm talking about a normal double jump (or one that's more of a hop like Modern Sonic) that can also be a backflip. The backflip would only be able to send the player backwards, not sideways or diagonal or anything like that. It would purely be a correction tool. This is the mindset I had thinking it up: Taking Sonic out of his spin state would clearly convey to the player that this is purely a mobility utility for when you mess up, and not something to attempt to attack enemies with. The move would function as a simple correction tool for when you realized quick enough that a jump isn't going to work out and you need to reverse it without turning the camera.
Giving Sonic a corrective ability (backflipping and exiting spin state to undo a wrong jump) doesn't sound like a bad idea, now that I think of it. It could do a good job giving him some leeway for those who find him way too difficult compared to Tails and Knuckles without editing anything that was already in his move set, and maybe also help make Metal Sonic more of an expert-oriented character if he doesn't have that ability. The one problem is that I wouldn't want this backflip ability to be something you can do by accident, like if you're attempting to thok at an unusual angle to speed through a turn or something.
The game is and has been designed around thok for 20 years. To replace it implies (to STJr, at least) remaking every map in the game and throwing out 20 years of muscle memory for the entire community.
This does not sound like a bigger compromise than rebuilding the game around slopes and then coming up with 2 unlockable characters that are absolutely unwieldy with them. I think veterans can sacrifice their one-character muscle memory for the sake of newbies having an easier introduction to the game.
This is way too many people just micdropping this like it's self-explanatory. This ability deserves serious consideration as a replacement for Sonic's and seeing it being dismissed so trivially when even the SA1 homing attack is given the right to defend itself is a major disappointment.
Pointy's momentum flip is easy to understand and use. You get instant visual feedback that the ability will fling you in the direction you're pushing the buttons to, visibly proportional to the momentum you put into it, and that's invaluable for when newbies see themselves in peril and instinctively press backwards to save themselves from a miscalculated jump. Being able to propel yourself sideways offers an opportunity for refinement when dodging bosses and enemy fire, not to mention it looks floaty, snappy and fits Sonic just fine. I refuse to let this ability just get swept under the rug until it gets proper consideration.
That said, I am content with getting the thok moved on to Metal at least in the aesthetic sense, since I don't care much about Metal or how better his gameplay could be. Metal is an artificial creation built to surpass Sonic, so an artificial speed boost that instantly puts him on toe-to-toe with Sonic is more than appropriate.
I think the main problem with the homing attack isn't even what Mystic said, it's that the homing attack is focused downward. It's meant to hit enemies below you. It doesn't help with vertical movement, and I think any thok replacement should be useful enough that new players are encouraged not to abuse Flight Call as much.
I think the main problem with the homing attack isn't even what Mystic said, it's that the homing attack is focused downward. It's meant to hit enemies below you. It doesn't help with vertical movement, and I think any thok replacement should be useful enough that new players are encouraged not to abuse Flight Call as much.
While I agree regarding the Homing Attack, I'm more of the mentality that any mobility changes made to Sonic should be made in addition to thok, rather than to replace it. When it comes to the topic of Sonic's inability to vertically keep up with other characters, a double jump (or hop) is a far better solution than a homing attack for generally the reason you stated, as well as a number of points brought up before.
Generally what puts me so strongly against the homing attack is it's more often than not inability to hit something Sonic can't already reach unless the level design follows homing chain mentality. If you make it so it can target more than badniks, you could even often end up accidentally hitting something you don't want to when you are just trying to make use of midair mobility. For example, a horizontal spring nearby a bottomless pit such as the ones in Arid Canyon.
The (probable) best solution to the homing attacks problems is already in the game in the form of the attraction shield, so I'm much more inclined toward exploring the potential of the double jump as an addition to Sonic's moveset.
This does not sound like a bigger compromise than rebuilding the game around slopes and then coming up with 2 unlockable characters that are absolutely unwieldy with them. I think veterans can sacrifice their one-character muscle memory for the sake of newbies having an easier introduction to the game.
I'm assuming you're referring to Amy and Fang; if you are, then being unwieldy with slopes is exactly why these two sometimes have alternate paths to get around areas that would otherwise need you to spin up a slope.
Also, Fang has his own unique way of interacting with slopes: downward slopes give his bounce a gigantic boost, while upward slopes tend to negate the bounce unless you already have enough momentum AND the slope isn't very steep. As for Amy, I won't deny that she and slopes go together like oil and water.
This discussion got so heated that I decided to put my 10 rings into this
First of all, the original questions:
1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok? Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?
Personally as of now I'm so used to it that I'm completely fine with it. I value fun over balance so I won't go into judging it.
2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?
This question is... hard. This may be a strange argument but I think it's because unlike other characters Sonic doesn't have a signature move at all: S1 and S2 gave him none; S3K gave the subtle Insta-Shield; Advance series tried to give him as much as possible (Insta-Shield, Homing Attack, Mid-air dash...); Sonic Battle has Sonic Ballet - essentially a weaker version of SRB2's JumpThok; Adventure series started the staple of Homing Attack, but even that is not entirely consistent: Adventure itself had an untargeted weak air-dash, Colors have a Double Jump instead, Lost World adds Focused Homing Attack on top of that, '06, Unleashed and Generations give an untargeted air-dash that kills horizontal momentum entirely and Forces goes back to Double Jump. And Mania introduces Drop Dash.
3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle? Was the thok so weird you were forced to play as Tails first, or could you handle it normally?
No. Being the "yet another fanboy who chose Sonic because he is the titular character" I was stubborn enough to force myself to get used to Sonic's gameplay (which was neither newbie-level easy nor expert-level difficult).
Now, elaborating into some suggestions.
Letting it stay as it is - obviously will not solve the problem discussed here. Someone mentioned the inconsistensy with the direction the character facing and thok always going forward - yes, that threw me into the pit often enough too.
Homing Attack - one of the most fan-favourite abilities that as a stand-alone ability has nothing to do with SRB2. In the the official games where Sonic had it as his main he also had another ability with the purpose of actually going fast (be it Spindash from running, The Run Button, Mach Speed sections or yet another fan-favourite - Sonic Boost). Just like CA_SWIM, Homing Attack is more like a secondary ability, if you ever want to use it. If it somehow still wins, then I'd recommend the momentum-preserving version introduced with Neo Sonic (kind of removes at least one of its flaws).
Drop Dash - Mania Hype clouds your minds. It was pointed out several times that Drop Dash is functionally inferior to Speed Thok and it doesn't resolve the issues discussed here either (on top of adding more). To be frank, Drop Dash is really powerful in 2D, where you can instantly turn around to dash in the reverse direction, but this is not 2D. Here Drop Dashing is much more difficult.
Double Jump - This ability is most definitely practical. But it's boring due to being a staple of platforming games in general. For those wondering - no, in SRB2 you don't really get to skip much with double jump (in fact, even less than with the Whirlwind Shield). Overall seems like it's the strongest candidate for Sonic's new ability, for better or worse.
Insta-Shield - I'll just tell you that back when I played Sonic 3 I had no idea Insta-Shield gives you a split-second of invincibility that is quite difficult to put to use.
Jump Thok - Not going to lie, I like this ability a lot. It's a very powerful ability due to being a hyrbid. And yes, you can experience the pros of one with little to no cons from the other (You don't get to mash buttons as often, nor do you have to experience "panic attack platforming" since you'll probably die immediately after the first panicked dash and calm down; the momentum depletion from Double Jump isn't even noticeable since Thok just sends you much faster than you can run anyway; by the time you actually get to the difficult platroming over a death pit you'll likely be able to estimate when exactly do you need to Jump Thok).
The thing is, it just doesn't seem to suit vanilla characters due to having this much power. At least not for me.
Momentum Flip - Back in 2.1 this threw me off for a direct opposite reason from thok right now - the character not facing where I want rather than the dash not going where I want. However with the introduction of DirectionChar mode this problem will likely just disappear (we'll see as soon as Pointy gets released) making this ability much more intuitive (since Sonic will dash in the direction he's facing). Maybe the fact that you uncurl during it makes it less desirable, but overall it's not going to be that bad.
Stripping Sonic of his air ability entirely and making him faster than other characters probably won't cut it. It will either make Sonic way to hard for "optimal" platforming or just plain unsuitable for more competitive play. Or both.
Triple Dash (Double Jump + Speed Thok as Jump+Spin ability + Spindash). Sounds more like a "yet another Sonic.wad" for me. This is just too many button combinations (yes, already) for a starter character. Spindash isn't even relevant here since it's a separate ability.
New, better ideas are something you are unlikely to get for the reason I stated in the second question.
Giving Metal Sonic CA_THOK while replacing Sonic's ability with something else - While playing around with 2.2 I found out that combining Thok with Dashmode/Boostmode makes it act the same way it did with Fsonic: making the thok much weaker and only able to use it's full potential during the Dashmode/Boostmode. Should this be a thing, it will not only prevent further discussions like that in the future about Metal Sonic (yes, there will be people like that), but will also fix the issue Metal Sonic has right now - his Hover that makes his other abilities obsolete most of the time.
Yes, I'm late to the party, but I just have to say it. The Popgun is a Spin ability. It's not wise to compare a Spin ability to a Jump ability.
I feel like saying that the thok as it exist in SRB2 looks more like the one in classic Sonic ROM hacks, rather than the air-dash from SA. Basically it isn't even designed for casual 3D gameplay
Double Jump - This ability is most definitely practical. But it's boring due to being a staple of platforming games in general. For those wondering - no, in SRB2 you don't really get to skip much with double jump (in fact, even less than with the Whirlwind Shield). Overall seems like it's the strongest candidate for Sonic's new ability, for better or worse.
Is there an existing double jump in the game that you're describing? The only double jump I'm aware of that's currently in the game is the Whirlwind Shield, so I'm basing my impresssions of the move on that.
You can't isolate elements of a character's toolkit by the inputs used for them. Are Amy and Fang's higher jumps their "ground jump" ability? Does Knuckles have a strictly worse "ground jump" ability than Sonic/Tails/Metal Sonic? There's hardly even any commonality between the inputs between characters; every character except Metal Sonic can use their second jump as an attack, Sonic/Tails/Knuckles/Metal can use their 'spin' as a means to gain speed whereas Amy's 'spin' slows her down and Fang's 'spin' can't be used while moving.
Might be a bit of a sidetrack since I agree it'd be good to give Sonic some form of ability that can be used as an airborne recovery - definitely in favor of Jump Thok, here - but Drop Dash really is a pain just for it being tied to the difficult-to-control spin movement. Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but if that were to be an available ability for Sonic at some point, would some more control to his spinning form be worth looking into? It'd make him a bit more unique in terms of ground movement, being able to keep the spin's speed and ability to harm enemies with much better control of the direction.
Just thought I might say it while all these abilities are being name-dropped.
There's been a lot of discussion on the different possible jump mechanics for Sonic, so I want to throw something onto the table that might strike a good chord for most of the interested parties:
This is a custom script I cooked up earlier today, and it basically functions as an input-sensistive jump thrust maneuver. For now I'll just call it the "air dash". Leaving the keys or stick alone results in a higher jump, but leaning in a direction will transfer some of that upward thrust in the direction of the player's input. It doesn't add much thrust, but the thrust is able to stack with existing momentum, allowing the player to propel themselves at pretty high speeds over long stretches of terrain.
There's a lot going on underneath the hood, so I think it'd be easier to explain the nuances by comparing and contrasting this ability against the other suitors.
Thok - The thok controls well with a keyboard and mouse, because a mouse allows for the kind of precision necessary to aim Sonic where he needs to be with a high speed thrust action. However, this plays worse on gamepad, where the camera is not as easy to maneuver with precision. Additionally, the thok naturally provides no vertical mobility. The air dash does provide vertical mobility, and its movement input sensitivity and more granular thrust amount means that it does work well on a gamepad.
Double Jump - The double jump is a direct contrast to the thok in that it resets vertical momentum instead of horizontal momentum. This does make it better for platforming, but it also removes Sonic's "speedy" attributes in the process. The air dash has more to offer here, allowing Sonic to perform an upward boost if no directional inputs or pressed, or to trade some of that height for an additive thrust in the player's input direction, giving it the best of both worlds.
Pointy's Momentum Flip - I believe the flip controls pretty well on a gamepad, but on a keyboard and mouse, it feels really sticky. I incorporated similar mechanics into the air dash so that gamepad users can adjust the angle of their thrust more granularly; however, the air dash is different in that it doesn't reset all momentum and is partially additive. This makes the momentum shifts a bit less extreme in comparison to the flip, while still being enough to help players correct their jumps with a backwards dash.
I've attached the file for anyone interested in judging the ability for themselves. I'm posting this in the hopes that it will move the discussion forward, rather than continuously retreading old ground. If you have any feedback, please be sure to state what control scheme you are using.
My main problem with the drop dash in my opinion is that I just don't really see it's usefulness in a 3D space when Sonic already has abilities that let him do everything the drop dash provides.
Rolling on the ground - This is already covered by the spindash, and the spindash could probably even charge up to go faster in the same time it takes to jump, charge the drop dash, and land. Even without charging a spindash, just running and then pressing the spin button to do the spin attack is better.
Quick access to speed - This is already covered by the thok, though this would be even more true if you were allowed to keep the speed you gain from the thok when you land. To replace the thok with the drop dash would be a flat downgrade, and an uninteresting one at that.
You even get access to much better aiming just charging a spindash instead, rather than trying to aim mid air before you land. Overall the drop dash is probably not really anywhere close to the best option here.
My thought process on the double jump is while on the surface it's the most boring option due to how many 3D platformers it appears in, I feel like how you handle it, how you set how it's used apart is where the interest comes in. Different games have different double jumps. Modern Sonic's double jump is different from the double jump in Crash 3, which is different from Sheila's double jump in Spyro 3, which is different from Mario's triple jump, and so forth. What makes it fun is how you use it to complement the game you are designing it for.
Preferably, I would like to see the double jump or whatever else is settled on be added to Sonic's moveset as an addition, rather than a replacement for something else such as the thok. I have occasionally seen the argument of "too many buttons" or "too many inputs" flying around, but as I have stated in previous posts I just don't really see this, even as an argument to be made in regards to beginners.
Crash Bandicoot for example. In Crash 3, you have a double jump, a body slam, a tornado spin, a bazooka that shoots wumpa fruit, a crouch, a slide, a slide jump, sprinting, etc. You are given access to a ton of different abilities, but I have never heard anyone say "Crash uses too many buttons and button combinations!"
In Spyro 3, Spyro has access to a charge attack, flame breath, gliding, flutter, skull bash, and in Reignited he can even do the roll dodge from Spyro 1. Again, I never hear anyone complain about how he has too many abilities/input combinations for a new player.
With all of that in mind, I don't really see how mapping a secondary ability to spin or custom 1 to help Sonic with his mobility in midair would be all that much for a player, even a new player, to keep in mind. Or heck, map double jump or whatever to the jump button and move thok to custom 1. I struggle to imagine how this would give new players any trouble with remembering the moveset, considering what players are easily able to manage in a number of other 3D platformers.
Edit: I tried out the file posted by Cobalt, here are my thoughts:
I feel it is something of a mixed bag. I find it to be useful in some regards, disappointing in others. I will elaborate: I tested on both keyboard and dualshock 4, standard and simple modes. For general movement I feel like it's useful in that it functions as a double jump when you are in more slow situations and as a steering utensil when moving faster. In both standard and simple modes however I feel that once you get moving too fast it becomes pretty useless as a correction tool for if you launched yourself off a platform before you were ready. You end up just sorta stopping or slowing down, which is liable to end up with you falling down somewhere you didn't want to go. It feels a little bit sluggish as well, in terms of building up speed.
Overall it feels more useful than thok for precise navigation but worse for speed and situational for use as a correction tool. I would however probably quite like it as a secondary ability.
I like the 'air dash'. Letting go of the keys to access the higher jump seems a bit unintuitive, though; the player's usually going to be pressing some movement key or holding the stick in some direction. It sounds like it'd be especially weird between players that use and do not use the automatic breaking, as letting go of the movement keys affects their momentum differently. I think it might make a bit more sense if it just gave the player more air at a low speeds? I'll have to give this a go.
I really like this. I really like how it can act as either a mini-thok or a double jump depending on your inputs. The main―possibly fatal―problem with it though is that it puts players with auto-brake on at a huge disadvantage.
Auto-brake forces two options: 1. minimal lateral movement but you can double jump, 2. you can thok in a direction but can't gain much height. Auto-brake off gives you the third (extremely useful) option: keep your lateral momentum and double jump.
A potential (but rather sloppy, I admit) solution would be to combine the thok and the "air dash" by having them on the same input, but to separate them by how long the button is pressed. A simple quick tap for the thok, which can also thok backwards for correctional purposes, and have it be the "air dash" when you hold the button down.
This would be rather inconsistent and sloppy so a better solution could probably be thought up, but I gave it an attempt nonetheless.
First of all, wow. This has been a really cool experience so far. When I made this thread I was expecting to see a buncha people talk about how the thok is unwieldy and unintuitive, and I definitely got that in the beggining - but now, Mystic and Sev, actual developers, are actively encouraging everyone to come up with a fun ability for Sonic!...
Not only that, Cobalt, the guy that (probably) took his Ringslinger thread as an inspiration to make the best alteration to multiplayer PvP, is also working on an alternative for the bustedness of the speed thok (probably) basing himself on this thread too.
For now I'll just call it the "air dash".
<snip>
I've attached the file for anyone interested in judging the ability for themselves. I'm posting this in the hopes that it will move the discussion forward, rather than continuously retreading old ground. If you have any feedback, please be sure to state what control scheme you are using.
To not confuse this with the SA1/2 Air Dash, I'll do y'all a favor and renickname this to the Air Thrust. Y'know, for convenience.
I've been playing around with the Air Thrust for a bit now and I really like this. My first impression of this was "it's a weird jumpthok-fallswitch hybrid" but after recollecting my thoughts for a bit I decided to put my own finger on this ability.
Mind you - I play with autobrake off. Looking at what Magnemania and Unknownlight said, that's probably important.
Comments - The air thrust is really simple to understand and gets along well with SRB2's design. Not pressing anything gives you a double jump that carries your momentum, and the thok part of it has true directionchar, meaning you actually get sent in the direction you're facing. It took me a while to get used to it because of that, but it's not a nitpick at all and I think it's a great change.
I had some issues with platforming on CEZ2 while using the air thrust because sometimes I would thok backwards instead of double-jumping. Maybe that's my own sloppiness, but I think the reaction window isn't very forgiving.
On the good side, giving Sonic this level of versatility means Metal Sonic got completely owned both in the race and in the battle. Good use of the ability means skipping a pretty considerable chunk of everything. You can also go down the gargoyle pillar path in DSZ1 easily now, too.
time gear said:
A simple quick tap for the thok, which can also thok backwards for correctional purposes, and have it be the "air dash" when you hold the button down.
From what I could see the thok is still present in the code. Pressing jump twice really fast while holding forward gave me the same effect the current thok has - maybe this can be abused by players trying to go fast, but I'm not even sure how this could be changed.
I really liked it overall though. After reading some posts in here, especially Magnemania's gif showcases, I can say that I'm now more inclined to something as versatile as the jump thok and the air thrust really does the job well.
I attempted combining the air thrust with an older version of the momentum mod (v5) by loading them both via a launcher to create the effect of preserving speed when you land. While not as immediately useful for speed as the thok, this I feel preserves the advanced feeling of Sonic by allowing his speed to stack over time if you can handle it (though admittedly still resembles thok spamming for a few seconds) while still managing to give Sonic more control over his mobility than before. It's not exactly a perfect solution for making Sonic more accessible I feel, but it does feel like movement in the right direction.
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