Trigger buttons do work correctly though. They're X-Rudder and Z-Rudder on the gamepad config screen.
But that's an entirely different argument; adding a third button in my opinion just adds unnecessary complexity to a button setup that already plays just fine.
They don't actually work correctly, at least on some controllers. It's not that you can't map anything to them, I'm well aware of how to map things to them. The problem is that once pressed once, they behave as though they are held down unless being pressed, in which case they behave as though they aren't being pressed. Letting go brings them back to acting held down again.
Why not just use the triggers for the camera, allowing the face buttons to be used for actions like in most games? Refraining from adding a third action button because some people are used to more eccentric old control setups like that sounds like the "tradition over progress" problem mentioned previously in this thread to me.
The homing attack in the Sonic Adventure games is designed with the ability to not require levels of precision accuracy to play. I'm willing to bet that's why it feels good. You get that satisfying feel of getting to bash the enemy you're targetting every time. You get a cool chase sequence and you get to dash out after a chain. You feel cool for having bashed a few enemies and can continue going forward at high speeds. It *feels* cool, it has a flow to it and the appeal is definitely there for it. I get that.
And to be clear about it, I'm only referring to the Homing as it is in the SRB2 Modern Mod.
Another poster mentioned loving Homing in the official games but not in SRB2. Personally, I'm the opposite — I don't like how Modern plays in the official games, and I hate "Homing" as it's usually used for these kind of pseudo-platforming gimmicks in Metal Habor, Final Egg, countless other official levels, but I love how it feels in SRB2.
However, homing attack has two drawbacks, and they're very major and conflict with our design philosophy. The first is that it absolutely trivializes enemies to the point where the only way to make them challenging is for them to actually become immune to you.
This is true. But trivializing enemies for the easiest character (ie, Sonic 3.0) would be a good thing, no? The enemies become more difficult with characters that do not have homing attack.
Instead of the game getting easier with the new characters, the difficulty progresses more linearly.
I mean, Fang's pop-gun is a version of the homing attack, and makes dealing with most (non-boss) enemies easier than other characters. So like, shouldn't Sonic be at least as powerful as Fang with enemies?
The second thing that it does is make it so enemies can take the place of actual platforming mechanics, thus encouraging low-effort and lazy level design that feels good for a bit until you start looking for the meat and potatoes of an actual platforming game.
The best example of this happening is Final Egg in Sonic Adventure 1. Ignoring the enemies for a moment, you have a particularly easy level that has a few sections you literally can't beat because there's no way to get from point A to point B. There's not actually much there at all. The level doesn't provide much in the way of challenges. It's really bland. But adding the enemies back in doesn't really fix this. The enemies act as the bridge for those sections you can't get across I mentioned earlier (acting to replace what should be proper platforming), and acting as a hazard by flickering on and off with their electricity, making it so you have to time your jumps. Now, that sounds neat in theory, but that actually just translates to you sitting and waiting for an enemy to become vulnerable, not doing anything in the meantime. This is not a good experience.
Yes, exactly. This is why it's good that SRB2 wasn't built for homing, and why it ironically works better in SRB2 than in any of the Adventure games. Precisely for this reason.
I think it could be seen as a happy accident, and also... harmonious? Sonic Team Jr nails the level design that we want in a Sonic game, and ST Sr got one thing right -- the homing attack.
It's kind of like using Spin Dash and Drop Dash in "Sonic 1" -- obviously, the game was not designed with these abilities in mind. Do their additions fundamentally, philosophically break the gameplay? Or do they improve aspects that were previously tedious?
Same with Homing in SRB2 -- you obviously don't need it to beat the game. But you can see why it's nice to have.
We don't design our levels or our enemies this way. We want our enemies to be something you have to engage with, and figure out. Learn how they work and beat them with skill and thinking. Not with automated targetting. Same with level design. We want engaging levels where you have to figure out how to approach the stage and the hazards it presents. Most importantly, we want to do that in tandem. The enemies and the stage should complement each other to make the game actually require skill and thought to beat. Homing Attack does not accomplish this. It causes the opposite to happen.
Totally understandable, but do you also see what I'm saying with viewing Homing as essentially a set of "training wheels" to make the most accessible character also the easiest mode (Sonic 3.0)?
The required skill is preserved for the higher difficulties of additional play-throughs, either as the extra characters, or as Sonic without utilizing the homing attack.
No doubt, the Homing Attack allows the player to breeze through some of these challenges, but like... that's okay! That's part of the fun of Sonic. You don't really engage with every platforming bit or badnik in classic Sonic levels unless that's what you're looking for in that play-through... it's usually more fun to zip past everything at crazy speed.
It's obviously a very tricky balance with Sonic, not just in SRB2... most official Sonic games struggle with these questions.
How do you make the player feel in control at high speeds while also not sending them into walls/spikes/enemies?
How do you make the player feel like they're earning the success without doing everything for them?
Entirely manual, unregulated control with that speed = player feels like a chump controlling Sonic until their skill improves. You know that "Sonic" ""himself"" wouldn't be running into walls and fucking up like this in a green meadow, so why are you, the player, so bad at this, you idiot? (Some version of that inner monologue)
Too much automation = player feels like a chump, watching Sonic do everything himself; it's all a cut scene and occasionally you tap a button. This isn't fun either.
SRB2 Sonic is all manual, official Sonic is all automation. Neither one is quite right. I think the sweet spot is, like, almost all manual, 75%, but with modern amenities like automatic brakes and power steering. Or, Sonic as he is now, with the addition of the... you know!
We're also already stretched really thin with 6 different characters + abilities. We're trying to figure out how to handle thok, which makes us have to consider how to do yet another ability. It does not make sense to try to make that ability be something that goes against our design philosophies when we already have a few ideas floating around that work within our current design philosophies. I want to be abundantly clear, I'm not saying homing attack can't be fun, but it is not something we are interested in including in the game because we strongly believe it would be a detriment to everything we've done so far.
Again, totally understandable, except that I think it's an incorrect assumption that Homing goes against the philosophy of SRB2*. Certainly I agree that there's no need to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
*
I'm talking about the philosophy of the game design as it is experienced by the player -- I'm not pretending to speak as a Dev, just holding that the user perspective is just as valuable as the creator perspective. I don't think "the customer is always right" but I also don't think "the creator is always right." Just to be clear where I'm coming from.
I don't think Sonic, the Thok, or the level design are fundamentally broken.
I don't think the Thok or the level design need to even revamped.
It's merely that Sonic himself is too hard to enjoy, and Homing/Doublejump (as seen in Modern Mod) greatly alleviates that difficulty**, while adding a new dimension of engaging with the level. I would think, philosophically, that's very well aligned with SRB2, as I experience it.
**
Repeating myself but just in case... the suggestion is Homing & Thok on separate buttons
I suspect Thok and MoMoDoHo*** could work very well together, without breaking anything in SRB2's design, other than Sonic's difficulty (which is only a theory since I don't know how to program and such a Mod doesn't exist)
***
Modern Mod Doublejump Homing... finally found a catchy name for this, eh?
---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 AM ----------
Why not just use the triggers for the camera, allowing the face buttons to be used for actions like in most games? Refraining from adding a third action button because some people are used to more eccentric old control setups like that sounds like the "tradition over progress" problem mentioned previously in this thread to me.
Why not just use the triggers for the camera, allowing the face buttons to be used for actions like in most games? Refraining from adding a third action button because some people are used to more eccentric old control setups like that sounds like the "tradition over progress" problem mentioned previously in this thread to me.
You could just be like me and have it mapped to both right stick and L/R buttons. Although I end up never touching the right stick, you could use this setup to have both consistent turning speed on L/R and manual turning speed on right stick for when either is more useful. This works fantastically with both hands, as you can quickly and comfortably move your right thumb back and forth between the right analog stick and the face buttons while having your pointer fingers on L/R at all times for the camera.
It might take some getting used to after using your current setup, but it feels so good and maximizes the number of buttons you have to work with.
That doesn't work. The constant L/R turning speed is equal to the max speed that the camera can move. If I were to set the L/R buttons to a normal turn speed, then I'd be unable to quickly whip the camera behind me with the right stick.
You can do it the other way around. You can set the L/R buttons to be fast and the right stick to be slow, but that's not what I want either because your control scheme inherently means you'll be mostly using the L/R buttons for camera control, and I usually don't want the camera moving crazy fast.
I was a bit unsure about replying to this one, Crum, because the post's tone seemed sort of severe... I was like, lol, am I allowed to respond to this?
So I apologize in advance if this post itself is aggravating! I can sympathize. Actually, I almost entirely agree with everything in your post — minus this bit on Homing definitely not being the answer, so I thought I'd provide a response.
To be clear — I'm referring to a specific type of Homing, which is the Modern Mod's Doublejump Homing (let's stick with MoMoDoHo for sake of clarity and brevity*).
*sorry that ALL of my posts are long... I'm obviously writing stream-of-consciousness, but do edit them and make these worthwhile, if not concise. In other words, I definitely put thought & consideration into these, but a lot of it is "thinking out loud," too. Mercy appreciated.
For starters, never mention the homing attack again in any context. Before you consider repeating it again, consider this list of flaws I've noticed in all my time doing character scripting or playing with mods:
[1] Overlaps with the attraction shield
[2] Getting the homing attack when you just wanted the air dash
[3] Will more often than not have you flying towards something that will hit you before you can hit them
[4] Inconsistent in where it'll hit enemies, either from the top or the side which actually matters in this game
[5] Serves no purpose in platforming that basic movement already does since it doesn't go upward
[6] Targets things behind walls causing it to get stuck or zoom toward the floor
[7] Targets TNT and mines by default
[8] Kills momentum, often requiring it to be chained or for you to use the air dash immediately after just to keep the flow going
[9] Only serves a purpose in enemy combat, something you can actually ignore a lot of the time in this game
[10] Can target things off to your sides where you can't see and won't know it's doing that, making you feel robbed of your control over the character unfairly
[1] Sonic's overall accessibility should naturally be a higher priority than any specific shield, enemy, or gimmick. IMO, the Attraction shield is not something that makes SRB2 special, and shouldn't keep Homing off the table.
Actually, what I think would be cooler anyway is to give Attraction the power of Nuke (making it like an EMP blast) and cutting Nuke.
There's too many different shields in SRB2 and not enough justification for all of them. So, Sonic gaining homing would actually help solve two nagging issues at once... and without adding any new functions, just moving around what's already coded.*
(Another benefit of porting Nuke's power to Attraction is that the concept of a "nuclear" shield doesn't vibe with eco-friendly Sonic; who knows what kind of radiation poisoning that blast is spreading? But an "EMP Blast" makes sense b/c it only impacts electronics, not the natural environment.)
*
I don't know anything about programming but I mean that these abilities are already present in the existing game or mods, and don't need to be invented from scratch.
[2] This is solved by mapping homing and thok to two separate buttons
(J+J for MoMoDoHo, and Thok on J+S)
[3] I haven't really experienced this to have any specific memory of what you're referring to here... but again we may not be talking about the same specific homing mod? I've noticed in some of the other homing mods (like Neo and Advance) that the radius seems wider* than MoMo's, and feels less natural.
*
I may be misdiagnosing what specifically makes varies for homing between those mods, but they definitely do appear to perform differently. It's why, despite preferring the sprite aesthetics of Neo compared to MoMo, I don't prefer playing Neo or Advance because the homing feels too "floaty"
[4] Same as above, but I want to try to respond to this point best I can, so let's use the example of Crustacean in Deep Sea, where I've experienced the homing reticule sending me into the enemy's claw instead of the hitbox.
I would say this works to the game's benefit... it's the same as how the Homing also targets the backwards springs in the CEZ-1 Bridge... it is essentially a way of teaching the player they can't always rely on the Homing attack -- and that even with that advantage, you still cannot blindly mash Homing to win.
[5] MoMoDoHo helps platforming in two ways: (a) the double jump allows for a significant amount of mid-air adjustment, and (b) can help a player reset get back on course by targeting a spring, monitor, or enemy (unintentionally flying off-course by Thokking to correct a jump is a common issue for 2.2 Sonic)
It doesn't disregard the platforming, like Tails' flight does. It just gives Sonic more aerial agility.
[6] No debate on this one. This is a flaw/glitch, and it's especially noticeable in the GF1 bit with the caged crawlas.
Ideally it would be fixable, if incorporated into base game. Even if it's not, as a Sonic gamer, I'm comfortable with a certain amount of glitchiness provided it doesn't break the game. I don't think this breaks the game any more than the floating platforms in CEZ-2 glitching into invisibility.
[7] Same as 4... this is actually a very good thing. It weans the player away from spamming Homing if they've become too reliant on that ability alone by ACZ.
[8] No debate, I just don't see why that's necessarily bad? It means Homing has advantages and disadvantages for use, and that it wouldn't be very useful in Record Attack.
[9] I'm surprised how often this point has been repeated when it's obviously not true. Homing's benefit extends to all objects in 3D space, not just enemies.
It means that when you're playing as Sonic, you're far less likely to completely whiff landing on a spring or a monitor that you intended to hit with your jump.
You're running toward the 3 springs in GFZ2, you over-shoot the bottom spring on your first press of the jump button.
As it is now, Sonic crashes into the wall and the must reorient to line up the spring and the camera's line of vision and take a second attempt at it.
But with homing, missing the jump doesn't mean hitting the wall, as you can simply just tap the jump button again as the reticule identifies the spring, and do the thing you meant to do in the first place.
Theorizing on player psychology and tests in game design:
As it is now, the first-time player feels like a chump, because the spring test is "pass/fail" and it's expected that the player will fail before being able to pass.
It assumes the best way to learn this is through rote repetition, failing and retrying. It also assumes this is a test the player must enjoy by making it mandatory before progressing. (Pass/fail tests can come later, they're plentiful in SRB2, and don't need to be as demanding in the second stage)
With homing, the player learns the lesson without feeling like a chump, because the test is now graded more leniently -- the player may have failed with the first jump, but the homing assist helped them move along without needing to repeat themselves. It assumes the best way to learn is through enjoyment, succeeding with help and retrying with less help. It makes no assumption on how the player enjoys the game, instead providing multiple methods to progress by default.
[10] Again I haven't actually experienced this myself in any way that I can recall... maybe we're playing with different homing mods, or maybe I'm not picturing what you're picturing? Philosophically, I would say that this is another example of the lesson in [4] and [7] which is that the player still must be expected to be mindful of the homing reticule, same as the camera direction for the Thok. That only seems fair to both the game and the player.
...
As this discussion has continued, I've been playing back and forth between Classic Vanilla and Modern Mod the last few days (tried a few other Sonic mods too) to test my own opinion.
Do I really believe what I'm saying? Does this version of homing really improve things that much? Am I crazy? As it turns out, I've concluded for myself that the answers are-- Yes, Yes, Maybe. It's only my opinion, but I think it's right! ;)
Top 5 reasons why I think this opinion is actually good to be coming from me, Moose, the cat who is fat.
[1] I have no skin in the game, other than I just really love SRB2 and want it to be the best ever and for everyone to love it. Discovering this game around the time that the Sonic Movie came out has reignited my enthusiasm for a hobby I thought I gave up on years ago.
[2] I can view it as "just a game" which can be a helpful vantage point to look at the bigger picture.
[3] I have 0 knowledge of any politics or previous assumptions/agreements that have shaped the game's existence. I know the basic overview of SRB2's origin, not the details.
[4] I don't know anything about the person who made the Modern Mod, or the people who make the SRB2 game, or how the decision making works.
[5] I'm not trying to promote my own work, or do anybody any favors. It'd be awful if I were trying to toot my own horn on this! I'm glad that's not the position I'm in... I can instead merely advocate for work that's already been done, and an opinion already widely held and shared, that deserves more recognition. (Then again, I suppose if I were capable of making the moveset mod I'm advocating, I'd probably post about it less, because I could just let the work speak for itself.)
Moose, regardless of how much you can justify your desire for the homing attack, Mystic is fundamentally against its inclusion. Crum implied this in the fourth page of the thread, and all of Mystic's posts have been in this vein. Mystic is one of the lead developers of the project and has been contributing it to for quite a while; they're allowed a few personal commandments at this point.
I generally agree that giving players aim-assist for springs and enemies is an improvement over the Thok, but there's just no value in arguing about it at this point. I've been attempting champion anything else. It's far more productive.
Magnemania, if you're implying that playing and debating Sonic fan games online is a waste of time....
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But, no, I hear you.
More productively, if someone with SRB2 programming ability ever makes a Mod that enables Thok + Homing as co-existing moves — I can guarantee you'll have at least one big fan!
That doesn't work. The constant L/R turning speed is equal to the max speed that the camera can move. If I were to set the L/R buttons to a normal turn speed, then I'd be unable to quickly whip the camera behind me with the right stick.
You can do it the other way around. You can set the L/R buttons to be fast and the right stick to be slow, but that's not what I want either because your control scheme inherently means you'll be mostly using the L/R buttons for camera control, and I usually don't want the camera moving crazy fast.
The way I have it set up is more of a happy medium. The camera doesn't whip around super fast with L/R, but it is more of a brisk, just right pace. Then on right stick, it's free to be as fast as I want it to be up to that same speed or as slow as I want. It feels quite nice. I recommend playing around with the sensitivity a bit.
I think one thing that's important to understand is that the vanilla game being inviting to players is an inherently positive function. All the mods in the world can aid veteran players in their quest for greater challenge, but if the base game deters most new players, than what's the point?
Most people I've introduced this game to were deterred by the controls, something a Sonic game should never do. The devs seem to wish to right that wrong.
The way I have it set up is more of a happy medium. The camera doesn't whip around super fast with L/R, but it is more of a brisk, just right pace. Then on right stick, it's free to be as fast as I want it to be up to that same speed or as slow as I want. It feels quite nice. I recommend playing around with the sensitivity a bit.
Sorry, nah. I'm not going to change my gamepad setup to one that gives me less control over my character just to accommodate your idea of a third action button. Your previous argument was better—the devs should fix the triggers.
They don't actually work correctly, at least on some controllers. It's not that you can't map anything to them, I'm well aware of how to map things to them. The problem is that once pressed once, they behave as though they are held down unless being pressed, in which case they behave as though they aren't being pressed. Letting go brings them back to acting held down again.
I think one thing that's important to understand is that the vanilla game being inviting to players is an inherently positive function. All the mods in the world can aid veteran players in their quest for greater challenge, but if the base game deters most new players, than what's the point?
Most people I've introduced this game to were deterred by the controls, something a Sonic game should never do. The devs seem to wish to right that wrong.
Bolded has been my experience, too (whether they play the tutorial or not). I would love to share this game with more people. I've certainly tried. Can't tell you how much I'd like to see a Sonic game bridge the gap to a wider audience, especially a fan made game with a full campaign and fuckin' incredible NiGHTS bonus stages and a killer soundtrack... would truly love to see it happen.
Over the past two months or so since I learned about SRB2, it's been an interesting challenge attempting to get friends/colleagues on board. I try to extoll the game's virtues and coach them along the initial hurdles as needed -- Play the tutorial. Give yourself time to learn the controls. Experiment with customizing them. Try some Mods. --- and, you know, just getting someone 'in the door' is a HUGE challenge (for anything! there are limited hours in the day and infinite entertainment options!) To then add self-inflicted barriers, like "Ah, actually, feeling clumsy as Sonic is a feature, not a bug..." it's too much water to carry.
Obviously SRB2 is "not for everyone." No kidding. It's a Russian nesting doll of niche interests. Sadly, as my hype honeymoon for the game wanes, I'm coming around to see the sober analysis of SRB2 is that it simply is not designed to reach beyond the community it's always been for -- the Hardcore Online Sonic Fan Who Prefers "Classic Sonic" But Would Like To See That In 3D And Possess Extreme Patience And A High Tolerance For Frustration -- and if you're even slightly outside of that demographic, the game is not interested in you. "This is how the farts smell here, learn to like it and call it dinner." (Beggars can't be choosers; Sonic fans long ago learned to subsist on less)
But, in fairness, just as one can't blame the new player for not having more patience to learn something new, I guess one can't blame the veteran player for not having more flexibility to learn something different -- they've been here for decades, and it is their property (well, not legally, but you know what I mean). I can see it a bit from both sides.
So... what's the point? Some bridges can't be gapped? Maybe not. On the other hand, in the year 2020 people are suddenly giving a shit about the DUNE books, so maybe nothing's impossible. Ah, that's it! Guys... all we need to do is get Oscar Isaac and Timothee Chalamander to sign on for the movie version, then SRB2 will finally get some long overdue recognition.
And yes, I know that's actually more likely to occur than Homing in vanilla ;)
At the end of the day, yes, exactly, we are making classic 2D Sonic into 3D. That's the stated goal. We are aiming to be as faithful to that ideal as possible. If there are issues with how we're going about doing that, sure, opinions and thoughts are welcome (as seen by the myriad of threads and responses since 2.2). But if your goal is to get us to change how we're doing things to be something that isn't that (as homing attack is distinctly different from that), then at that point we really don't have much left to discuss. We're trying to be a faithful recreation of Sonic in 3D, not bridge old and new understandings of what Sonic is.
Obviously SRB2 is "not for everyone." No kidding. It's a Russian nesting doll of niche interests. Sadly, as my hype honeymoon for the game wanes, I'm coming around to see the sober analysis of SRB2 is that it simply is not designed to reach beyond the community it's always been for -- the Hardcore Online Sonic Fan Who Prefers "Classic Sonic" But Would Like To See That In 3D And Possess Extreme Patience And A High Tolerance For Frustration -- and if you're even slightly outside of that demographic, the game is not interested in you. "This is how the farts smell here, learn to like it and call it dinner." (Beggars can't be choosers; Sonic fans long ago learned to subsist on less)
You're right, but there's a little bit of context you're missing here. Remember that SRB2 has been around, in some form or another, since before the release of Sonic Adventure. There were a lot of people who played the classic games as kids, discovered the internet sometime later, and downloaded SRB2 as their first 3D Sonic game. There's a not insignificant portion of the community for whom SRB2 is 3D Sonic, and Sonic Adventure onward is... something else.
As such, convincing the community to make changes to the core gameplay is almost as difficult as convincing classic Sonic fans to make changes to the 2D physics. After all, the 2D games' controls and physics can also be extremely frustrating for new players.
Honestly overall it's a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation regardless of what they do. Change Sonic's (and possibly Metal's) moveset fundamentally and people who like either of those two characters feel burned. Don't change Sonic's moveset and new players have the potential of being turned off.
From a strictly gameplay perspective, the easiest solution would be to just swap Metal to being unlocked by default and Sonic to being unlocked later, but realistically this can't work as setting the title character to being unlockable and one of the antagonists to being unlocked by default wouldn't blow over very well. Just swapping their movesets doesn't work either, because there's absolutely no way it makes sense for Sonic to hover outside super form.
It would be preferable that two characters don't get changed just because the devs aren't satisfied with one character's moveset, so a better compromise would be to move the thok to another unlockable character that isn't in the game yet. In my opinion, the best fit would be Espio. This way, Sonic gets freed up to have an air ability that is better for beginners, and Metal Sonic can keep the quirks that make him interesting and unique (Though potentially tweaked).
The direction I would lean in is a further along version of the Air Thrust that works better for recovery and leaves the player feeling more in control of their speed when using it.
Alright so as I've seen this thread popping like everytime I check this place, I've finally decided to make a statement on some of the stuff here. I don't see any need to make Sonic more accessible for beginners. It's just not fair, that's like ultimately having a complex fighting game character then dumb down the overwhelming moveset so newer players who 'LIKE' the character but don't choose to put forth the effort to learn how to use them properly.
Obviously less mistakes can afford to be made with Sonic as he has no other options of recovery or anything, but that's where prior knowledge comes into play. If you want any easier time just play Tails and fly over everything, or just use Knuckles and climb and glide over things. It's not rocket science.
As someone who enjoyed thok-fest races it just wouldn't be the same if sonic was left with double jump only seeing as Knuckles and Tails could easily blitz over several things. Mind you I haven't really played Fang, Rosy & Metal that much so I don't really have a good viewpoint on them but to strip Sonic of the one thing that can give him a relative way to keep up or take advantage of those slower characters who can take shortcuts even if it's a little longer just seems ridiculous.
It's far more satisfying to still beat those who can take the easy way out verses settling for something far easier, cause if that was to be the case I would have to argue Sonic's speed value would need to be increased to compensate for that, but even then with how the level's are designed it's like a double-edged sword as it could have it's positives and it's negatives.
It's far more satisfying to still beat those who can take the easy way out verses settling for something far easier, cause if that was to be the case I would have to argue Sonic's speed value would need to be increased to compensate for that, but even then with how the level's are designed it's like a double-edged sword as it could have it's positives and it's negatives.
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