What if we gave Sonic no ability?

time gear said:

I feel as though we have had this conversation before, but I would say Knuckles is harder than Sonic simply on account of having a lower jump height and as such, lower reach. The glide and climb sometimes helps, but enemies that have a height advantage to begin with are more difficult to deal with as him in general, especially flying enemies.

Don't forget that mobility through the stages is only one aspect of what makes a character easy or hard. Dealing with enemies is an important aspect too. Knuckles is easily the slowest character in regards to how he navigates, not considering shortcuts. This combined with his lower reach from jumping can lead to a bit of extra challenge.

This was a deliberate mechanic in S3K, Knuckles was the intended "Hard Mode" playthrough, with his paths often being a fair bit more challenging than the main path and his lower reach causing bosses to be harder and sometimes even requiring new patterns so he could complete them.

He's less difficult in SRB2 than he is in S3K, but I would still consider him a bigger challenge than Sonic.

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Knuckles is not harder to play than Sonic in SRB2. I can guarantee you that the platforming assistance and shortcuts provided via glide and climb heavily outweighs any long-cuts and combat disadvantages created by the lower jump height. To my knowledge this sentiment has been corroborated multiple times from new player feedback.

The degree to which character is more combat friendly is also debatable, considering the player can accidentally kill himself by 60-fracunit instathrusting into Fang when the roof is blown off as Sonic but not as Knuckles.

CobaltBW said:

The degree to which character is more combat friendly is also debatable, considering the player can accidentally kill himself by 60-fracunit instathrusting into Fang when the roof is blown off as Sonic but not as Knuckles.

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i agree with you, but in general i think knuckles is worse in combat. despite the fact that you can jump normally into bosses as both characters, when you thok you maintain at least some level of speed while remaining in a spinning state, but with knuckles you fly a short distance backward, completely helpless. both of these conditions can save or kill you depending on the situation, but i'm inclined to say that knuckles can get you killed more often.

or y'know i could just spindash jump into the boss maybe then i could actually clear cez3 more consistenly...

In most boss fights, Knuckles' helpless state doesn't matter, since the boss has already been put into flinch state. What actually matters is that the player is able to safely land after attacking, and the thrust from Sonic's ability inherently makes this more unsafe. There is a reason a cage was added to THZ3's fight, and it certainly wasn't because Knuckles needed to climb it. In arenas like ACZ3 and BCZ2, the collision rebound from the thok after hitting bosses is just another safety hazard for new players.

Which simply funnels me back into the main point, which is that Sonic's ability is strictly a safety hazard for new players.

SilverVortex said:

i agree with you, but in general i think knuckles is worse in combat.

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I mean, this makes sense, as generally in S3K, the bosses, although the same for both Sonic and Knuckles, Knuckles had harder bosses, fit for Knuckles ability so it would bring that extra level of difficulty to his route. In SRB2 like explained by CobaltBW, there’s isn’t that much of a difficulty spike in Knuckles route unlike S3K, if anything it’s easier, but I’d like to think that Knuckles still has some relatively hard bosses compared to the other characters. This is not counting the Thok for Sonic.

time gear said:

Knuckles is harder than Sonic

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- He can climb up one really tall wall and then fly over some of the biggest, most elaborate levels within 1-2 glides (acz1, acz2, cez1)
- Glide gives him near-infinite ability to correct mistimed jumps unless there are tons of noclimb walls
- His ability doesn't instantly cause newbies to fling themselves into danger
- This isn't s3k, meaning not all the levels have low ceilings that stop you from gliding over the whole level

Yes, he may jump lower, but unless the level has an absolute crapton of noclimb walls and low ceilings, knuckles can and will find a way to cheese any challenge the vanilla game has to offer (except the minecart sections, underwater breathing challenges, and gimmicky ERZ rooms)

Knux encourages cheese over all other strategies instead of encouraging players to learn the ropes and play for real (ie: have fun by interacting with each level's unique design). This also applies to tails. In some cases, it applies to metal.

CobaltBW said:

I mean, it's possible we won't shove it behind an unlock.... It's totally possible it won't be on any character. :P

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I'll start a riot.

Unknownlight said:

I'll start a riot.

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And I’ll join you.



Although I do think it should be a unlock or something. I’m not a dev by any means so I wouldn’t know what would be more balanced and healthier to add to the game so meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least keep the thok as a charability to use for custom characters

ClassicNC said:

At least keep the thok as a charability to use for custom characters

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You know, you could easily build the thok from scratch in lua by putting P_InstaThrust (player.mo, player.angle, player.actionspd) inside an AbilitySpecial hook.

Not that we'd ever have any reason to remove it from the hardcode, but I figured I'd point that out.

Weighing in here in the Knuckles discussion, I can assure you Knuckles actually has some of the easiest time with bosses. Once you understand how to control the glide, it essentially works like a slower, controllable thok which works wonders in allowing Knuckles to maneuver around bosses and really line up hits.

I'm fact, the only boss in which Knuckles even somewhat struggles with is CEZ3, but even that is minimized since you can just climb the walls.

The smaller adjustments and hitbox changes the glide gives Knuckles allows him to decimate The Fang boss fight, and Knuckles can easily dance around Metal Sonic and Black Eggman without worry of recoil on the speed of his glide.

> STJr: The thok might not be in the base game at all
> SRB2 Community:


Ok, yes... Twitter may not be representative of the entire SRB2 experience but. It's pretty clear that there's something about the thok that clicks with a lot of people. I'm totally on board that it ruins the experience for new players - anyone that doesn't think that is deluding themselves - but on the whole it definitely adds to SRB2. Sure it can easily be modded in, but you know that's not on the same level as including it in the game. When was the last time you really spent time with a character using CA_AIRDRILL? IMHO, thok deserves a place in base SRB2, for gameplay as well as cultural significance.

There is a much needed physics overhaul in the works. There's been some talk that the thok may not be compatible with the new style of physics - I'd like to see some specific discussion on that. It's likely that, sure, the thok can't be kept exactly as is, but what exactly doesn't work? What aspects of the thok, currently, lead people to support it so fervently, and how can that be translated to a new physics system? Here are some of my thoughts:

• The thok is by far the simplest and most consistent ability. It happens in an instant (unlike every other ability, which have more lasting effects), and does exactly two things: sets your horizontal momentum to 60*FRACUNIT in whatever direction you're aiming, and gives you back air control if you jumped while spinning, which is common to every ability but mostly notable for thok. Indirectly, it also forces you to let go of jump to use it, possibly cutting your jump - again, common to every ability (except twinspin!), but most notable for thok.

• The twitchy nature of the thok is part of the appeal - for me, at least. Even a top speedrunner is not getting perfect thoks 100% of the time, and that makes it feel really good when you are pulling off a particularly precise move. Even more so when it's instinctual, rather than a pre-planned route.

• This comes largely from two things: the instantaneous nature of the ability, and the current way ground friction is handled, where the timing of your bunny hops can help you conserve some part of your thok momentum. This latter interaction is where things would start to get funky with a system of gameplay where you can maintain speed on the ground past the normalspeed cap. I don't think letting Sonic keep his thok speed on the ground for free would necessarily be overpowered, and it would even cut down on the oft-criticized tendency to spam thoks (ok, why is this criticized? it's like telling tails not to fly.), but I don't think it would be fun.

ugh this is the part of the post where i can't reconcile how that particular, crucial, gameplay point could be replicated in the new physics system - maybe someone else can, though? in any case, I do think there should be more conversation on the specifics of what makes the thok fun (or not fun, if you roll that way?) and how it could stay fun or be made fun, rather than how hard or easy it is to use or anything like that.

Kaysakado said:

Sure it can easily be modded in, but you know that's not on the same level as including it in the game. When was the last time you really spent time with a character using CA_AIRDRILL?

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Allow saving with mods loaded and I can assure you using a mod to add the thok back to Sonic will be much more convenient than having to re-unlock Metal Sonic every time you add a mod with custom gamedata. Air drill isn't relevant since nobody cares about that ability in the first place. It's just a resource for custom characters that was made obsolete by lua before even debuting.

Kaysakado said:

There is a much needed physics overhaul in the works. There's been some talk that the thok may not be compatible with the new style of physics - I'd like to see some specific discussion on that. It's likely that, sure, the thok can't be kept exactly as is, but what exactly doesn't work?

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Thok is constant free speed for zero effort, which clashes badly with a reworked movement system based on exploiting level geometry for speed and applying skill to maintain that speed. It would be like playing Kart with a permanent sneaker on your item button.

Kaysakado said:

the current way ground friction is handled, where the timing of your bunny hops can help you conserve some part of your thok momentum.

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This is more of an exploit than a mechanic. It's unintuitive and extremely janky.

The way I see it the thok wouldn't work as well as it does now without the speed cap. The way it is now makes it a short burst of speed that you have to use well while you have it but removing the speed cap would make it more like an instantaneous way to go faster than your running speed until you run into something, and in my opinion Sonic shouldn't be running faster than his normalspeed unless he got that speed from the terrain. Maybe the solution would be to reduce Sonic's speed to his normalspeed only when touching the ground after thokking?

thok thread number two, let's gooooo!!!!!!!

God, this conversation never ceases to amaze me.

What I find most absurd about it as a whole is just the sheer amount of stuff that needs to be rethinked so Sonic can lose his boost button. If it becomes a double jump, where the fuck do I put the whirlwind shield? If Metal gets the thok, will dashmode get the boot? If the thok isn't in a vanilla character, will anyone ragequit the community?

It'll take a while before I can state how I feel on the thok properly but as much as I know how to use it and like how it exploits sloped terrain, the new momentum physics will probably not give us this sort of leeway. It's a fun ability for sure but I don't get why some people would get on their knees and beg for it to stay on a character that can definitely benefit more from something else entirely

On the topic of what to do with the thok under the assumption that the physics are being changed to be more momentum focused with a specific focus in using the terrain to gain and maintain speed, I would return to the idea I posted earlier in regards to the pure momentum redirection thok:

1. Thok cannot be used from a standstill to gain more speed than normal running speed.
2. If the player manages to move faster than that, it matches your new, current speed.
3. It can be used in midair even if you achieved airtime by launching off a ramp instead of by jumping.
4. Perhaps it could even be used multiple times per jump, though not necessarily an infinite number of times. More likely like two or three times.

In regards to players launching themselves backwards too far to their deaths during boss fights because of thok, these changes to how it works should help remedy that. Boss stages are usually pretty small and lack the ramps to make use of to gain more speed, so it's unlikely the player could manage to thok into the boss with more speed than just running and jumping, which should make it easier to control.

The overall intended use of the thok under these changes would be to use as a momentum changing tool midair. It would help players steer Sonic in midair but would be useless for gaining much speed to begin with.

If the Thok was to was to be removed. Sonic would be much slower than Tails and Knuckles, and then they would have to remove the Spindash for speed for Tails and Knuckles. Not only that we would have no reason to play as Sonic anymore. If Sonic could not Thok I would not play as him any more.

Kaysakado said:

There is a much needed physics overhaul in the works. There's been some talk that the thok may not be compatible with the new style of physics - I'd like to see some specific discussion on that.

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Part of me doesn't want to extrapolate too much from what we've been working on internally since things are subject to change, but a few key elements to the physics changes we've been experimenting with are as follows:

* Linear or decaying acceleration/friction curve with the ability for speed to be maintained past maximum
* Improved air control (1:1 with ground control, and shares the changes in acceleration curve)
* Changes to gravity and jump height

Acceleration and air control are probably the most important changes, because they make it easier for Sonic to reposition himself mid-jump from a standstill. Areas like ACZ1's ziplines at the moment can be pretty terrifying to Sonic due to the rigidity of air control, but with air maneuverability this becomes an absolute breeze. Gravity and jump height would also be pretty significant changes, making our physics feel less "floaty" and Sonic's verticality more comparable to the classic Sonic games.

As this relates to the thok:

To its credit, the lack of verticality of the thok becomes less of an issue with increased jump height since players can feel more comfortable using the basic jump for core platforming, reaching greater heights and being able to correct momentum without needing to activate a midair ability.

The biggest problem going against it is the fact that the thok boosts the player at nearly double their normal runspeed, and the movement rework allows him to keep all of that speed. Not only is this excessive from a sheer numbers standpoint, it works against the fundamentals we want to establish, i.e. using momentum and terrain to build up speed.

Physics changes also do nothing to rectify the issue of the thok being a KB+M biased utility. You cannot use the move as effectively without the fine and twitch correctional abilities that come with using a mouse, and you certainly cannot safely use it in a direction that isn't facing away from the camera. None of our other characters are this dependent on a specific control scheme as a crucial factor in their performance, and I'd argue it's part of what's holding gamepad back from receiving more of the attention it needs.

Lowering the thrust speed of the move down to 36 fracunits could make it scale better for gamepads and not break our momentum physics as much.... But nerfing the speed also makes the thok's sheer basicness a lot more readily apparent, and not in a very good way, I'd argue. At that point you might as well give Sonic the homing attack.

Momentum-redirective properties have been considered in the past, but we've found it comes with the drawback of making the ability feel less consistent.



The Sonic ability experiments we've been doing internally have been less focused on reimagining the thok and more focused on creating a core gameplay experience that feels "definitive" to classic 3D Sonic gameplay. A physics rework was a hugely important prior step before we could take this route, and I think it opens up ability design possibilities that wouldn't have been feasible or wouldn't have played as well in our current physics engine.

CobaltBW said:

Part of me doesn't want to extrapolate too much from what we've been working on internally since things are subject to change, but a few key elements to the physics changes we've been experimenting with are as follows:

* Linear or decaying acceleration/friction curve with the ability for speed to be maintained past maximum
* Improved air control (1:1 with ground control, and shares the changes in acceleration curve)
* Changes to gravity and jump height

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CobaltBW said:

As this relates to the thok:

To its credit, the lack of verticality of the thok becomes less of an issue with increased jump height since players can feel more comfortable using the basic jump for core platforming, reaching greater heights and being able to correct momentum without needing to activate a midair ability.

The biggest problem going against it is the fact that the thok boosts the player at nearly double their normal runspeed, and the movement rework allows him to keep all of that speed. Not only is this excessive from a sheer numbers standpoint, it works against the fundamentals we want to establish, i.e. using momentum and terrain to build up speed.

Physics changes also do nothing to rectify the issue of the thok being a KB+M biased utility. You cannot use the move as effectively without the fine and twitch correctional abilities that come with using a mouse, and you certainly cannot safely use it in a direction that isn't facing away from the camera. None of our other characters are this dependent on a specific control scheme as a crucial factor in their performance, and I'd argue it's part of what's holding gamepad back from receiving more of the attention it needs.

Lowering the thrust speed of the move down to 36 fracunits could make it scale better for gamepads and not break our momentum physics as much.... But nerfing the speed also makes the thok's sheer basicness a lot more readily apparent, and not in a very good way, I'd argue. At that point you might as well give Sonic the homing attack.

Momentum-redirective properties have been considered in the past, but we've found it comes with the drawback of making the ability feel less consistent.



The Sonic ability experiments we've been doing internally have been less focused on reimagining the thok and more focused on creating a core gameplay experience that feels "definitive" to classic 3D Sonic gameplay. A physics rework was a hugely important prior step before we could take this route, and I think it opens up ability design possibilities that wouldn't have been feasible or wouldn't have played as well in our current physics engine.

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Under the understanding that it's WIP and subject to change, perhaps a lua of the new physics could be released for the community to experiment with? It would let us test some of the existing proposals for how to replace thok to see what we like and have something more tangible to work with when designing new proof of concept files for moves made with the physics in mind.

My intuition tells me a more complete version of the Jump Thrust would probably work best as a replacement, though. It's one of the moves that feels the closest to being the thok without doing anything overly fancy, and has some double jump properties that could make it useful in that regard too.

OP345 said:

So Sonic not having an ability is a possibility? If the core gameplay experience includes level design then you could make Sonic have no ability and still be viable.

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While technically true, it wouldn't be graceful to make Sonic the only character whose jump button isn't assigned to a specialized midair ability. As I've said before, it would be a wasted opportunity to add gameplay depth to the character.

Or maybe have some kind of "assist mode" that, among other things, shows an estimated trajectory for the thok?