Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

MotorRoach said:

The pattern I've noticed in super forms seem to mostly rely on going into a warm/bright color, if the character isn't one already. Characters who are already a warm color scheme just go brighter (Tails, Knuckles), and characters who are more of a cool color have their color turn into their warm complementary.

This might be a bit of a stretch, but Shadow is some times depicted as a very unsaturated dark blue, while Silver's hue seems to lean a bit more towards blue, so it makes sense for them to be yellow while also a bit creamier and more unsaturated looking than Sonic's super colors.

Anyway, rambling aside, since Amy is already a very warm color much like Knuckles, I think it makes sense for her to have a brighter version of her own color already.

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I think it's simpler than that. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver all turn yellow because they are hedgehogs. Everyone else just shines a brighter shade of their original color. Tails and Ray shine bright yellow, and Knuckles and Mighty shine pink. Since Amy has never gone Super in any official games (and likely never will, unless she's a playable character in Mania 2), we can only guess how the rules apply to her. Personally, I like her going yellow, and her quills sticking out like Super Sonic.

Just take a look at this old gem a fan made. (I can't stare at it too long. Makes me feel old.)



Pink Super Amy is acceptable too. Just seems comparatively boring.

I think Motor's makes more sense. Also for me, it looks almost kinda weird seeing Amy glow yellow, I dunno.

So, I have a question, before asking about supers and wether the rest of the cast should have them I wanna ask: what do the devs want SRB2 to be? To me, that should define the reasoning behind any decisions made to the game, at least the core experience.

The way I see it, they made it as its own thing, separate from both classic and modern Sonic games, just a fangame that tries to capture basic Sonic gameplay into a new game, without following any "formula" the Sonic series has had over the years, yet this game seems to follow the classic Sonic thing of, giving super to Sonic as a reward for exploring.

In Sonic & Knuckles, it was mostly the same, except for Sonic, which unlocked an extra zone and ending that could only appear if he had all of the chaos emeralds, so it was even greater a reward for finding the emeralds. Other than that, all the other characters you could play as, had supers, to give the player a reason to find the emeralds with them as well.

So, considering that, I think at least Knuckles and Tails should have a super, assuming that they do want to follow the classic formula and give the player a reward for finding the emeralds. In the case of Amy and Fang, I don't know if they should turn super as well, but I think they should definitely be given something as a reward for finding them.

Every character should have a super form of some kind; removing it as a feature was an absurd decision that I still don't understand. Similar to why SEGA removed them from the 3D games as of late. Like why? lol

I don't care much for super forms but it's always fun to have a god mode. If you've obtain every emerald then you have earned it.

katmint said:

my own ideas for super abilities are already implemented in revi, though sonic's will be replaced in the future since i'm likely changing his main ability again. I think my best, or at least most unique idea from that set is amy's super.

katmint said:

super amy
passive - drain hammer
amy loses rings twice as quickly as other characters while super, but striking an enemy with her hammer will award her a pack of rings. Hearts spawned by the hammer while super will hunt down enemies to drain from.

active - spiral jump
a double jump which reaches incredible heights but cancels your momentum on use.

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coincidentally, i've also been trying out a custom supercolor for amy in the next update of my mod. I figured i'd post it here since people were wondering about a pink supercolor.

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I really like your ideas for Super Amy. Another thing that could work is replacing the hammer strike with abilities that would make sense for her and still be useful. For example, pressing Shift (or the spindash key) would have her launch herself in the air with her hammer, like she did in Sonic Adventure. Her jump ability could be replaced with a move that has her spin her hammer out to the sides as she drops straight down, damaging enemies on the ground nearby as she lands.

As for Fang, I think it would be funny if his Super basically turned him into a Matrix character. Take away the restriction to stand still to fire, and allow him to fire in the air. If you hold the key down, he could auto target enemies in his vicinity until there are none left. Maybe he could even do some cool poses as he does it. And, of course, boost his bounce ability so he can reach higher areas with it.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

Going back to the topic of Supers and the mysterious rules of how they work, here's how I interpret it. I could be wrong, but I think the characters who turn yellow (Sonic, Shadow, and Silver) have canon Super forms. All other Super forms are non-canon, hence why they don't change colors, or have their hair change shape. In S3&K and Mania, Tails, Knuckles, Mighty, and Ray get what I consider to be pseudo-Super forms. I think they only exist to give incentive to the player to collect emeralds as those characters. Heck, other games--namely Sonic Advance 1-3--didn't even feel the need to do that much.

Consider how Sonic Heroes handled Team Sonic during the final boss. Sonic goes Super, changing color and shape, while Tails and Knuckles just get a yellow aura surrounding them. I think that was Sonic Team saying, "Yeah, they get enhanced powers, but they're not really Super." I think the same thing happened in the 2D games, and we just didn't realize it at first. For me, the introduction of Mighty and Ray in Mania Plus confirmed it. Super Sonic was the only true Super, because he was a hedgehog. The others didn't change shapes or colors; they just glowed their original colors.

This explains why Buttnick doesn't, you know, use the Chaos Emeralds to turn Super himself. It's because he can't.

Personally, I think the ability to turn Super properly might be both genetic and dependant on one's connections to the Emeralds which allows the Super form.

Sonic, being the main character and all that, has to have that gene and the best ending of Sonic 1 creates the connection which allows him to turn Super come Sonic 2.
Tails does not have the gene, but his connection to the Emeralds allows him to enter a semi-Super state in the games where he can turn 'super'
Knuckles... I'm going to state it right now. Echidnas are unable to have the Super gene. And Knuckles has a connection with the Master Emerald instead of the Chaos Emeralds, but this is enough to let him also turn kinda-Super.


As for the bonus characters:

Amy may or may not have the gene, but she lacks a strong connection to the Chaos Emeralds like Sonic does, hence why we have never seen her go Super in a mainline game.
Fang... Totally doesn't have the gene or the connection.
Finally, Metal Sonic. Due to being based on Sonic's DNA, he would have the gene in his code. And while he doesn't have the connection... The emeralds can't tell him apart from Sonic. Hence why he can go Super.


A few others of note:
Shadow was created to be the Ultimate Lifeform. If he didn't have the gene, he wouldn't be that. And he gained the connection during Adventure 2 with Sonic's help.
Silver would most likely have the gene, even if it had mutated somehow. And, like Shadow, he got the connection thanks to Sonic's help during 06 - and while that timeline was more or less erased, the connection remains.
Blaze doesn't have the Super gene as such... But if we take the popular theory that Blaze from Rush is in fact the same Blaze who sealed Ilbus inside of her, that 'replicates' the gene, and allows her to use the Sol Emeralds, which she gains a connection to during Sonic Rush, to enter Burning Blaze, which is more or less a Super form.
Mighty and Ray are basically the same as Tails, just without a strong connection to the Emeralds.

Finally, if Eggman could turn Super (given that he possibly would have a connection to the Emeralds in some way) then ask me this: Why has he never tried to do so in a game? The answer is obvious: he can't at all.

Eggman makes a lot of questionable decisions to be fair. Honestly, my take is this:if you have all the Emeralds, you should theoretically be able to go Super. Bringing genetics or species into it is silly. There's a lot of games where only Sonic can do it, but that's because that's what the people making that particular game decided.
Frankly, I don't think the color means anything. Honestly, most of these characters would just look weird being bright yellow, that's all.

I don't think it's genetics or some connection to the emeralds, either. I think it's like this:

Hedgehogs: Super forms

Non-hedgehogs: Pseudo-Super forms, which are non-canon

Machines (like Metal Sonic, the Death Egg, or the ARK): Forcibly absorb the energy of the Chaos emeralds, using them like batteries. I do agree that Eggman can't go Super, and so he uses machines to draw from the emerald power instead. I don't think Metal Sonic technically ever went Super officially, but Mecha Sonic did in S3&K using the Master Emerald. Even then, it was a very flawed imitation of the Super form, flickering out of the form every once and a while, giving Knuckles a chance to hit him.

Whatever the true answer is, I wish they would just tell us. I think Sonic Team must have told the Mania team how the Super forms actually work, so they could keep things consistent. I suspect they basically consider it their knockoff Super Saiyan form. Hedgehogs are Saiyans, and everyone else is just powering up.

I literally just think they chose colors that looked cool. And I also very much doubt it has anything to do with being a Hedgehog.
You'll notice that the moment other Hedgehogs even went Super was after everyone else started to be less relevant. By that point I doubt they cared about color and just made Super Shadow and Super Silver yellow.
There is NO reason non-Hedgehogs shouldn't be able to transform. The power comes from the Emeralds, not the species. Super Knuckles and Super Tails are just as valid and canon as Super Sonic.
The REAL reason it's been Sonic-only recently? Main character syndrome. Characters not named Sonic have been less and less relevant, let alone giving them the same priveledges. But that's really about it. Mania is a game that finally remembers "oh hey these guys aren't just tagalong sidekicks, they are JUST as capable as the guy on the box.".
Of course, even if there WAS some BS story 'reason' for forbidding other characters, I would not accept that as an actual excuse. And given Super Knuckles is coming in 2.2.5, I don't think the devs worry about that either.

It's not that I don't want other characters to have Super forms, it's just that I think that's how Sonic Team intended it. I actually found it really disappointing that only Sonic could go Super in Sonic Advance (and only in the final boss battle), and I found it just as annoying when I first collected the Emeralds as Knuckles in SRB2 several years ago and found out he couldn't transform.

I was relieved when Mania brought back Super Tails and Super Knuckles. Although the former required Super Emeralds to transform before, and now there's a weaker Super Tails with no kamikaze flickies? Does that mean that S3&K's version of Super Tails is now a Hyper form? Kinda confusing, although it doesn't really matter if you consider them both non-canon anyway. When Mania Plus came out, and Mighty and Ray's Super forms followed the same pattern as Tails and Knuckles, I was initially disappointed, but it got me thinking. When it was just Tails and Knuckles, it was kind of presumptive for people to assume there was a pattern when there were only two examples of non-hedgehog Supers to look at. I used to think the idea that hedgehogs = Saiyans was stupid, but now it makes a lot of sense to me. It explains why Super Sonic gets his own exclusive sprites, while the others just get a glow of their original colors.

We can agree to disagree on what we think Sonic Team intended, but regardless, I want Super forms in SRB2 anyway. The only thing this really changes is what color Super Amy is, assuming Super forms are extended to the rest of the cast later down the line.

The wildest piece of the dev's decision to lock the super forms to Sonic and Metal Sonic is that this is, like, the one piece of post-Adventure lore they decided needed to be followed to a T when the game actively ignores the existence of pretty much everything after S3&K. Why is this random retcon that Iizuka fashioned from his ass out of nowhere that everyone agrees is dumb as hell is the one they chose to care about?

Frostav said:

The wildest piece of the dev's decision to lock the super forms to Sonic and Metal Sonic is that this is, like, the one piece of post-Adventure lore they decided needed to be followed to a T when the game actively ignores the existence of pretty much everything after S3&K. Why is this random retcon that Iizuka fashioned from his ass out of nowhere that everyone agrees is dumb as hell is the one they chose to care about?

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I wouldn't put it quite that strongly, but I remember feeling a very similar way ten years ago. It's a 3D Sonic game inspired by the Classic games, but only Sonic could go Super? Wuh? Nowadays, it doesn't bother me as much, but I feel like if you're going to have Super forms, it should be an all or nothing thing. If you're giving it to one character, give it to all of them.

I do understand why one wouldn't want everyone to go Super, though. Sometimes I find myself intentionally not playing with all of the Emeralds collected in S3&K, Mania, or SRB2, because it can take some of the fun out of the game when you can go Super and skip through most of the level without any challenge. But that goes for Super Sonic too. He's not an exception to the rule. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood to play with Super forms.

I've read like first two pages of this and I think most of the problems with having all characters all go super would be fixed if super canceling became a thing. It's what I loved about Sonic 3 Complete- you can preserve your rings by canceling when you don't need it, and turn it on when you're interested in using the characters abilities more efficiently. It's not only a great solution to the problems a lot of people are mentioning-its also a great feature in general that the official games don't have, and its simply annoying.
Also, turning super has and always will be an option- if you give them the option and if they feel the broken reward is rather inappropriate for the character they can simply just not use it.
And finally, I'm not sure what's the problem with letting characters like Knuckles use the emeralds. IMO if you're going to prohibit certain characters using super forms atleast have Knuckles use the super form since Tails, Fang, and Amy don't have nearly as much experience with the mystic jewels as Sonic, Metal, and Knuckles does.

BlueSmoke said:

I've read like first two pages of this and I think most of the problems with having all characters all go super would be fixed if super canceling became a thing. It's what I loved about Sonic 3 Complete- you can preserve your rings by canceling when you don't need it, and turn it on when you're interested in using the characters abilities more efficiently. It's not only a great solution to the problems a lot of people are mentioning-its also a great feature in general that the official games don't have, and its simply annoying.
Also, turning super has and always will be an option- if you give them the option and if they feel the broken reward is rather inappropriate for the character they can simply just not use it.
And finally, I'm not sure what's the problem with letting characters like Knuckles use the emeralds. IMO if you're going to prohibit certain characters using super forms atleast have Knuckles use the super form since Tails, Fang, and Amy don't have nearly as much experience with the mystic jewels as Sonic, Metal, and Knuckles does.

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and then as soon as I say this Super Knuckles gets added LMAO

BlueSmoke said:

I've read like first two pages of this and I think most of the problems with having all characters all go super would be fixed if super canceling became a thing. It's what I loved about Sonic 3 Complete- you can preserve your rings by canceling when you don't need it, and turn it on when you're interested in using the characters abilities more efficiently. It's not only a great solution to the problems a lot of people are mentioning-its also a great feature in general that the official games don't have, and its simply annoying.

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To be honest, I've always hated the idea of Super canceling. I feel it takes away what little challenge and risks are involved in Super forms. I believe there's a reason the official games never did it. What you call annoying (not being able to stop the ring drain at will) I call a fair trade-off for invincibility that makes the game more interesting.

Sometimes you'll want to hold off on going Super until you feel you have enough rings to maintain that form for the rest of the level. Especially if you're in a ring-scarce level, you'll probably wait until you have way more than 50 rings. But in some of those instances, you may have some hard hazards straight ahead, so you run the risk of losing your rings if you don't transform right now. So you have to make a choice. Do you go Super now, even if you don't know if there are enough rings ahead to allow you to maintain that form for long? Or do you take the risk and hold off on transforming, going through the hazards in your base form, knowing you'll lose all your rings if you can't pull it off?

That's lost if you have Super cancel. In that instance, you would just go Super, bypass the hazards, then cancel Super. There, you only used up a few rings, no biggie. There was no real risk involved, so you didn't have to make any hard choices.

Super Cancelling is a good thing from hacks and fangames because it's clearly a flawed part of the Super design.


When you unlock Super Sonic you're supposed to deserve it, if the game is too easy then it's because it's intended to be a post-game unlock for players who finished every special stages.

Icarus said:

Super Cancelling is a good thing from hacks and fangames because it's clearly a flawed part of the Super design.

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I don't see how that's a design flaw, personally.

It's because its much more convenient to be able to cancel your super form if needed. I'd rather have the choice to keep the form until a certain point in the stage, so as to save some rings and also prevent myself from potentially dying from not having any rings if you lose the form in a really bad spot. I see the risk without super cancelling that people like, and that's great, but that's why it should be an option.

I mean, that's kind of the point, isn't it? You're forced to make a decision early on whether you want to activate Super and risk losing all your rings at some later point.

You're never required to go Super at any point during regular gameplay. You just need to exercise discretion on whether it's a good time to transform, or if you're willing to risk the consequences of having your rings drained.

Yeah, but it would be nice to have it as an option, and not be forced. Like in Sonic 3C, super-cancelling wasn't even forced in the first place. It was an option, it was for players who didn't like that style of using Super. Also, I forgot to mention, that super cancelling comes with its own risk. Cancelling your super form does mean you get to preserve it, but you also risk losing all your rings and only being able to recover a small percentage, making you have to meet the ring quota again if you want to turn Super again.
You could also add a cooldown to the feature, making it even riskier.
But at the very least, I would much prefer super cancelling as a option.