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Old 08-16-2020   #81
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Originally Posted by GrayAngel View Post
Sonic Adventure DX was a remaster. They ported it to GameCube, gave it a fresh coat of paint, added some new features, and they were done. Whitehead's games are literally remade from scratch. Usually remakes will take advantage of advances in hardware by making the game look and feel like a modern game, like when they remade the first generation of Pokemon games with FireRed and LeafGreen. But Whitehead's goal was to imitate the original, rather than update it. Although he did add widescreen, gave it a better frame rate and performance, and other stuff like that which isn't immediately apparent from just looking at it.

Whitehead's games are so special because they were built from scratch. Before him, others would just port the original games to new systems, because that's just easier to do. But the games often had a lot of issues because of them not being made for the hardware they were being played on.
The thing is that DX was just a bad port of an aged game whereas Whitehead managed to respect the spirit and soul of the series while Sega butchered it with average and mediocre games... Anyway this isn't the subject of the thread so it will be my last answer about this.

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If Nights was a little more zoomed out, I would enjoy it so much more. I don't like not being able to see what's approaching. I've never understood why it's a gametype that you're meant to go fast through, but you have to have a course memorized to be able to actually do that. A little more field of view would go a long way, and then I would have LOADS of fun with it, because I love the gametype in practice. A final boss using that mode would be SO stylish!!
The thing is that you need to memorize the special stages to better understand them, like in the classic series. I still agree that Nights into Dreams had more dynamic angles and a de-zoom when going fast compared to SRB2's special stages.
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Old 08-16-2020   #82
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"Final Fight Zone" is a terrible name. At least change it to "Final Flight", if it's a NiGHTS stage.
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Old 08-16-2020   #83
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"Final Fight Zone" is a terrible name. At least change it to "Final Flight", if it's a NiGHTS stage.
I really like this. An homage to the original name while being less generic.

That said, SRB2 zone names tend to be terrible and generic. "Deep Sea". "Red Volcano".
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Old 08-16-2020   #84
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The thing is that you need to memorize the special stages to better understand them, like in the classic series. I still agree that Nights into Dreams had more dynamic angles and a de-zoom when going fast compared to SRB2's special stages.
Yeah, the final boss should have dynamic camera angles and a de-zoom. Especially if we're fighting the Black Rock or Black Core itself so we can see the full scale of the battle.
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Old 08-16-2020   #85
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unless we want a very simplistic and easy boss, the Super Sonic moveset will not work.
Again, you only think this is true because of your lack of imagination to see the potential in it. You mistake your lack of vision as objective truth. For example, take the concept of Doomsday Zone's opening phase, a boss that is rushing to get away from Sonic whist occasionally firing missiles at him to slow him down. This could be applied to Super Sonic's 3D moveset by creating something of an obstacle course for Sonic to cross in his Super Form, designed around that moveset.

On occasion, Eggman fires missiles at Sonic in an attempt to slow him down and potentially cause him to fall into a bottomless pit. Sonic must dodge these missiles whilst avoiding falling behind too much, collecting rings along the way to maintain his transformation. Instead of attacking Eggman directly, perhaps some of the missiles are differently colored and Sonic can jump into them to reflect them back at Eggman. Alternatively, the goal could be to find buttons to push that cause Eggman's rockets to turn on him and deal damage, or to fire new rockets at him.

In either event, there are ways to teach the player on the fly simply through observation and cues rather than assuming they are incapable of adapting to this boss the same way they adapted to, say, the DSZ boss or CEZ boss when they presented new elements that weren't seen in the levels before them. As this is the final boss, the player is to be treated as though they are experienced with the game, not as though they are a total beginner who has no idea what they are doing.

Just because you can't personally think of a way to make a boss work within a certain gameplay style does not make it objective truth that it can't be done. As such, yes, I do believe there are ways to make it work even with the Egg Reverie style and NiGHTS style. It is pure arrogance to simply dismiss the potential of any of the three styles just because you personally lack the imagination to make it work as anything other than an easy boss.

As an additional note: Complexity and Difficulty are not directly linked. Doomsday Zone is a fairly difficult boss the first time you play through it, even though it's incredibly simple; simply catch up to Eggman and smash into him for the first phase, and then trick him into shooting himself by taking advantage of the homing properties of his missiles. The same kind of principle (That a hard boss can be simple) can easily be done in SRB2 (and already has been) if the imagination to implement it is present.
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Old 08-16-2020   #86
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Please, this entire discussion is not whether we can do this but rather whether we should do this and it's blatantly obvious, if we to make things fair, that we shouldn't. Throwing random concepts that utilize Super Sonic in new and difficult ways into the final boss that the player has never even seen or used before is ridiculous but it is what's necessary if we want to make a hard final boss that doesn't just give Eggman 100 lasers.
Now this, this I completely disagree with.

First of all, there's no "we", anybody here is free to talk about the potential ways a stage like this could be done in SRB2, that's what I was trying to do with this discussion, throwing ideas here and discuss wether or not they would work considering how the devs see the game as a whole.

Now, I do think both a NiGHTS style stage and a 3D stage could be made for the game, the question is not which one should they make, but working out how either option could work, that was my initial intention for this thread, I think it's fine if it goes other places, but I don't think you should be shutting off ideas just because you personally don't think they should make them real.
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Old 08-17-2020   #87
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Now this, this I completely disagree with.

First of all, there's no "we", anybody here is free to talk about the potential ways a stage like this could be done in SRB2, that's what I was trying to do with this discussion, throwing ideas here and discuss wether or not they would work considering how the devs see the game as a whole.
Saying "we" does not invalidate others from speculating on a stage or any idea. Commonly, "we" is used as a general term for the participants in the discussion (i.e. me and time gear). It is not an example of me trying to shut down discussion.

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Now, I do think both a NiGHTS style stage and a 3D stage could be made for the game, the question is not which one should they make, but working out how either option could work, that was my initial intention for this thread, I think it's fine if it goes other places, but I don't think you should be shutting off ideas just because you personally don't think they should make them real.
I haven't shut down discussion at all. Time gear is literally continuing with their idea and I am generally very uninterested in arguing about it. It's not like me using the term "we" is something authoritarian.
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Old 08-17-2020   #88
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Honestly I really like the idea of having a 2 type final battle like in mania, although id prefer if it was done slightly differently. You could have different phases, 2D gameplay that plays similarly to the nights special stages, and a sort of normal/platforming phase. Doing this could test your skills in both of the games play styles. Although I would rather if any nights portion would focus less on collecting orbs and more on keeping your ring count up while also damaging the enemy.
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Old 08-17-2020   #89
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Originally Posted by OP345 View Post
Saying "we" does not invalidate others from speculating on a stage or any idea. Commonly, "we" is used as a general term for the participants in the discussion (i.e. me and time gear). It is not an example of me trying to shut down discussion.

I haven't shut down discussion at all. Time gear is literally continuing with their idea and I am generally very uninterested in arguing about it. It's not like me using the term "we" is something authoritarian.
I see, it just seemed to me like you didn't want to agree on time gear's idea just because it wasn't a NiGHTS styled stage, and because you just think it's impossible to make a 3D stage work.

That's what I meant when I said you were shutting down ideas, as in, not accepting anything that's a 3D stage just because it's a more difficult option to work with. If that wasn't your intention in what you said there, then I apologize, I misinterpreted what you said.

I do think, reading everything people have posted here, that there really isn't an option that would realistically satisfy most people, since SRB2 has a lot of different gameplay styles at play, and yet, the special stages stuff and also Super Sonic, is basically locked behind playing the NiGHTS stages to get the emeralds.

That being said, the fact that the player has to master NiGHTS gameplay in order to get Super Sonic, doesn't really matter all things considered, is not like other Sonic games use gameplay similar to the special stages on any boss, just because the player is used to playing those stages to get the emeralds, so I don't think that argument holds up that much, assuming of course that they are planning to follow Classic Sonic's formula.

A new gameplay style exclusive to Super Sonic could be fine, as long as it doesn't use a lot of new concepts thrown to the player. For instance, I think an Egg Reverie moveset could be fine, as long as it's not too complicated or counterintuitive to the player to learn.
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Old 08-17-2020   #90
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That being said, the fact that the player has to master NiGHTS gameplay in order to get Super Sonic, doesn't really matter all things considered, is not like other Sonic games use gameplay similar to the special stages on any boss, just because the player is used to playing those stages to get the emeralds, so I don't think that argument holds up that much, assuming of course that they are planning to follow Classic Sonic's formula.
I think this is kind of a moot point. The only classic game to have a Super Sonic final boss at all is Sonic & Knuckles, inventing the concept, and then the later 3D games with Super Sonic bosses don't have special stages.
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Old 08-17-2020   #91
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I think this is kind of a moot point. The only classic game to have a Super Sonic final boss at all is Sonic & Knuckles, inventing the concept, and then the later 3D games with Super Sonic bosses don't have special stages.
To be honest, I didn't really consider that, and I was also counting the Advance games as Classic Sonic for some reason, even though they most likely would fall on the Modern Sonic half, and I'm not even sure if you need to get the emeralds to unlock that final boss, since I didn't beat those games myself.

But still, special stages gameplay are usually exclusive to them, that gameplay isn't really used in anything else in any game, so using that gameplay for a boss fight seems a little weird to me.
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Old 08-17-2020   #92
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I haven't shut down discussion at all. Time gear is literally continuing with their idea and I am generally very uninterested in arguing about it. It's not like me using the term "we" is something authoritarian.
All I have done is try to explain why using Super Sonic's regular moveset is a valid option with potential to it, just as the other options are. You have replied every time with effectively "You can't do that without the boss being simple and easy" even though this is plainly false. If you aren't interested in arguing over it, you shouldn't be instigating the argument in such a way as to keep me on the defensive. If you aren't aiming to shut down discussion on it, then stop acting like it not being viable is objective truth just because of your inability to imagine how it could work. It would be much more constructive to just say it how it is; that you personally don't see how it could work and that it would be up to others to figure that out, as opposed to outright dismissing it.
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Old 08-17-2020   #93
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I'm sorry about my last comment, I got tired because I didn't sleep enough.


Maybe the Nights mode should get a tutorial level for people who has a bit of trouble about them.
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Old 08-17-2020   #94
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re: names

I have been extremely vocal for Zero Ring Zone (anyone remember this? kek) to be the final fight's name, maybe even with a reimagined version of MP_0RI to accompany it. Zero Ring is a very... clever name to me. Although I'll say Final Flight also sounds cool.
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Old 08-17-2020   #95
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All I have done is try to explain why using Super Sonic's regular moveset is a valid option with potential to it, just as the other options are. You have replied every time with effectively "You can't do that without the boss being simple and easy" even though this is plainly false.
It's not false, it's true. You've given me no reason to believe that it isn't true. Stating my opinion isn't an argument in the slightest. The proposals you made are still pretty easy (although we'd have to see it in gameplay for us to know for sure) overall and not as interesting as what I think would be possible in a NiGHTS-style level.
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Old 08-17-2020   #96
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Let's all remind ourselves that up to this point, this is merely a "what if" thread where people are brainstorming at most. If you think something doesn't work, state why with the goal of improving on it. If you think it works despite everything, start work on it to demonstrate. This isn't a burden-of-proof hot potato game: there is no leeway to be on each other's throats on the guise of ideas proposed here being supposedly unconceivable or uninteresting when there's nothing concrete to test out.
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Old 08-17-2020   #97
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It's not false, it's true. You've given me no reason to believe that it isn't true. Stating my opinion isn't an argument in the slightest. The proposals you made are still pretty easy (although we'd have to see it in gameplay for us to know for sure) overall and not as interesting as what I think would be possible in a NiGHTS-style level.
I added bold italics for additional emphasis where I think this comes down to the core of the matter. The facts are that ultimately this is a matter of personal opinion, and yet you still keep stating your own opinion as though it is objective fact, which is entirely what got us into this back and forth to begin with. All it has resulted in is both of us getting tired of it. I suggest we just agree to disagree, as it's obvious that nothing fruitful will come from further discussion between us on the subject; all it will do is result in is even more back and forth in which you insist your opinion is objective fact and I point out how incorrect that is. Then you would double down again on how your opinion is still objective fact because you aren't satisfied with my argument against it, and the cycle would continue.
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Old 08-17-2020   #98
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re: names

I have been extremely vocal for Zero Ring Zone (anyone remember this? kek) to be the final fight's name, maybe even with a reimagined version of MP_0RI to accompany it. Zero Ring is a very... clever name to me. Although I'll say Final Flight also sounds cool.
Zero Ring Zone has a great ring (haha) to it, but it would be odd for a Super Sonic level where you start off with 50 rings.

If we wanted to go for super cheesy, other names could be Zero Hope Zone, or even The End Zone.
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Old 08-17-2020   #99
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I added bold italics for additional emphasis where I think this comes down to the core of the matter. The facts are that ultimately this is a matter of personal opinion, and yet you still keep stating your own opinion as though it is objective fact, which is entirely what got us into this back and forth to begin with.
No, I haven't stated it as if it were objective fact. Where did you get this idea from? All I said was that it's false and I disagree.

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Zero Ring Zone has a great ring (haha) to it, but it would be odd for a Super Sonic level where you start off with 50 rings.

If we wanted to go for super cheesy, other names could be Zero Hope Zone, or even The End Zone.

Final Climax Zone.

Last edited by OP345; 08-17-2020 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 08-17-2020   #100
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I can see a NiGHTS Final Boss where once you Defeat Brak, Eggman Escapes and then Sonic or (Any of the Characters that can go Super) Decide to go Super and Chase them down in a NiGHTS like Final Boss trying to avoid Remains of the Death Egg?? or whatever Sonic is in for ERZ.
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