I really don't want characters to have jump/spin abilities, because it inevitably means that ability will be replaced when you put on a shield. I'm fine with having Mania replace the drop dash when Sonic puts on a shield because the three shield abilities are just as good for momentum as the drop dash if not better, and basically always better for mobility as well. Having a cool separate jump/spin ability means that if you don't want to compromise the characters' movesets when a shield is on, you'll need to add an extra button to the game's controls, probably one that's never used for anything when you're not wearing a shield.
This would be consistent with the shield abilities in all classic Sonic games, though. Mania's shields over-ride the Drop Dash, as you point out, and the 3K shields over-ride the Insta-shield.
Sonic/Tails/Knuckles having a jump+spin ability just means that the starting characters have a "default" shield ability, essentially. It makes them more powerful/versatile and therefore easier, which imo is the right way to position them in SRB2.
---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------
"Newcomers" are under no obligation to master the game. If they do not like how the game plays when they play as the main character, a very significant percentage of them will drop the game and badmouth it rather than attempting to master the game or switch characters.
I would also add that accessibility is as key to Sonic gameplay as running fast or rolling in a ball, imo. The idea that a player should need to earn or learn to use Sonic properly doesn't fit the ethos of the classic games that SRB2 is drawing upon.
---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------
Basically what I'm trying to convey is that I feel like the thok has more merit to it than it's being given credit for in this topic.
I feel like everyone in this thread has been praising the thok??? If anything, I think the thok is maybe being given too much credit so as not to upset any apple carts.
Even the posts suggesting an alteration are sure to include that the thok is a very fun ability, particularly once you learn it, and shouldn't be scrapped, but maybe it shouldn't be the default ability for the default character.
I don't really feel like me being "swayed against my case" is the right way to approach this, nor am I trying to tell anyone their opinions are invalid in turn. I feel like everyone should be free to make their viewpoints known without needing to be converted to another viewpoint, that sounds like total nonsense to me and is counter to the entire point of communicating viewpoints to begin with.
I don't think the entire point of communicating is all talking and no listening. (And I don't think that's what you are trying to say, either). If we're all sharing the same goal of finding the best overall solution, a changing mind isn't a failure or character defect, but a step toward consensus.
I think what Cobalt was saying was that it seems like your position on Sonic's ability is that veteran players should be catered to more than new players, and any change would be fundamentally bad, because it would not be serving the correct audience. But improvements require change, which require flexibility, which is what he was asking for, I think.