Let's talk about NiGHTS levels

So, I was working a NiGHTS level today, and I realized "Wow, there's really a lot to this!"

On an insignificant note, the technicalities don't seem too daunting. I've set up hoops and axis stuff before, albeit on a much smaller scale. I haven't put any of them in so far, but I'm planning to soon. I'd like to construct my sector layout at the same time as the path for NiGHTS to run on, for the sake of some things like "How wide does this doorway need to be for the camera to get through?" and "Well, this turn is awkward."

One of the highlights of NiGHTS levels in SRB2 for me is that's an excuse to make something that's visually great with a different style. However, I played (and started mapping for) SRB2's NiGHTS mode before I'd even seen the real NiGHTS. Comparing an NiD level such as Splash Garden with Botanic Serenity (and even Spring Hill) makes me feel like I'm making levels in an entirely different style. I was also really surprised the first time I saw the yellow corner hoops. Does anyone else feel like they're scarred somehow?

Also, SRB2 seems to have wandered really far from the theme that NiGHTS was using. NiD has some semi-realistic mountains, as well as a good portion of city/man-made stuff. Partly, I do blame slopes. But, in another respect, SRB2 just doesn't have a texture set that works for a city that doesn't look like Dark City Zone. Although, what really surprises me is that the only two NiGHTS levels we've got going around are GFZ themed. Anyone else shocked here? Not that either BSZ or Spring Hill look bad, but...

I'm really surprised Spring Hill isn't graphically glitchy. I wouldn't be surprised if that has to do with the fact that it's just a flat plain with a bunch of scenery obscuring the sheer distance of a NiGHTS level. I mean, I seriously don't blame Digiku for all those graphical glitches. As soon as I said "This isn't working, let's make it bigger," I was practically welcoming software glitches with open arms.

Which brings me to my next point. Should I be using a particular nodebuilder to help cut down on the graphical glitches? I've been using ZDBSP with normal ol' DB for a while, mainly because the version of ZenNode included with DB can't handle it. I tried using the version of ZenNode included in SRB2DB, and I must say, it feels good. It builds the nodes faster than ZDBSP, although I can't say I've noticed a (significant) drop in software glitches. Any suggestions?

Edit: I'm assuming the other topic appeared because while I was trying to post this, an internal server error happened. I naturally assumed it hadn't gotten through, so I sent another one. I have no idea why it took so long to appear. 0.o

One-sided linedefs.


Place them wisely.

Not that I'm not using them where I can now, it's just that I don't want to make a pillar in the middle of my level because I want to ward off the graphical glitches.

Actually, make that several pillars.

Then I'm not sure. SRB2's NiGHTS mode is still far from finished and a bit buggy. You could try spacing it out and using the fewest amount of linedefs as possible, but...

I've seen that the longer the linedef, the more graphic errors you can get, try using shorter linedefs in a map, so instead of making a large four linedef square, make an almost elliptical like shape. Large sectors with no other sectors in them cause texture bleeding. FOFs are also one of the main sources of texture bleeding, due to overdrawing and sprite sorting, SRB2 can't handle sprite sorting well in software, so try using few FOFs and keep them simple and small.

My problems are with the software render specifically, not NiGHTS mode. I really don't think it's anything NiGHTS specific.

DashFox2007, turning a large rectangular sector into a large ellipse wouldn't do any good. Not only do excessively large linedefs cause glitching, but so do sectors with a _lot_ of linedefs, and depending on how long those linedefs are, and the area of the sector, you'll probably have it worse. Though, SRB2 can handle pretty big FOFs with a lot of sides. If you overuse them, it'll probably lag.

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, texture bleeding happens with open sectors. Not with huge sectors. But I assume with the amount of detail BlueZero4 will put in, I doubt he'll be using sectors literally too big for SRB2 to handle. I don't know how you could get rid of the graphical glitching due to SIZE, though. If you cut down on large open spaces, you should be fine, but the distance of which you can see the map will probably lag if you can see the whole thing, which is why you should use one-sided linedefs.

You don't even need to make a pillar! Just make one, and it works. You could divide your map up into sections balancing the amount of detail you can see at one time, and the amount of map you can see at one time. That should do the trick.

Oh, and for the record, I'm talking about this glitch:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r105/BlueZero4/RandomScreenshots2/srb20072.png

If you can't see it in the screenshot, go play the level and stand there yourself.

Photobucket is blocked; I can't see screenshot. I'm sure it has to do with level size. I made another 1P NiGHTS level, and Glaber's seen it, but Dynamic Temple Zone Act 1 ended up way small. At least it doesn't have graphical glitches, but it does lag at spots. But good detail for NiGHTS, in my mind, is more important than lack of "slime trails." Spring Hill Zone is really ugly and cramped, and I'd actually rather see the several instances of HOM that Botanic Serenity gives, because its visuals, even in Low-End, make up for that.

BZ4, NiGHTS is a good genre for you, because you are good with visuals. I do feel that you care a little too much about visuals in levels, but the beauty of 1P NiGHTS is that visuals is your main priority. NiGHTS races, on the other hand, need a lot more attention to gameplay. Just because Slumber Circuit is the prettiest stage in the official pack doesn't stop it from being unfun.

I'd ask if you're viewing this from school, except this is summer. So, erm, why's Photobucket blocked?

And I honestly don't know why I started this NiGHTS level, and I don't know how it'll turn out, but seeing it shape up nicely feels wonderful. And the graphical glitches are getting insanely better now that I'm taking off a bunch of the excess linedefs. It's great.

Oh, wait, I just assumed Photobucket was blocked, because Imageshack is blocked. (We have Internet protection services.) LOL. I CAN see the screenshot. And yeah, that's a "slime trail" coming from F_SKY1.

The big problem I have with NiGHTS in SRB2 is that there is very little in the way of stuff to do without the being entirely designed around the level, meaning that the only gimmicks you'll get are sector-based. We need more options that allow the player to do other stuff. Look at Splash Garden. You've got all sorts of fun stuff, a flowing water current the camera chases you down, you've got a neat little thing where you're controlling NiGHTS while looking downward, as opposed to the usual side-scrolling, you've got those bubbles that shoot you forward or back or wherever. While, admittedly that last can be done in a kinda/sorta way with water blocks, it's not practical. There are enemies in NiGHTS that actually stay on the track, there are those yellow half-loops you brought up, along with a bunch of other things that SRB2 is just lacking. There's more, a lot more, in the other NiGHTS levels too, that SRB2 needs, but Splash Garden was used as the example here, so Splash Garden is what I used as well.

There's also the control issue. NiGHTS is actually a lot more sensitive to the controls, and the turns you can take are insanely tighter. SRB2's is the exact opposite, which really makes doing things a pain. Also, NiGHTS accelerates a lot faster than Super Sonic does, which makes bosses better. Look at BSZ's boss. When you're hit, it takes too long to get back to good speed. In NiD, it's one or two taps of Drill Spin, and you're golden.

Now, really, don't get me wrong. I like NiGHTS in SRB2. But these limitations need to be fixed. I'd love to be able to make a truly innovative NiGHTS level, but right now, it just doesn't have what made NiGHTS what it was.

Onto what you've been looking at:

BlueZero4 said:

Also, SRB2 seems to have wandered really far from the theme that NiGHTS was using. NiD has some semi-realistic mountains, as well as a good portion of city/man-made stuff. Partly, I do blame slopes. But, in another respect, SRB2 just doesn't have a texture set that works for a city that doesn't look like Dark City Zone. Although, what really surprises me is that the only two NiGHTS levels we've got going around are GFZ themed. Anyone else shocked here? Not that either BSZ or Spring Hill look bad, but...

Click to expand...

Actually, with a bit of ingenuity, there are plenty of available textures for a city set. However, it doesn't have enough objects for a very scenic city. Though you've also mentioned that our 2 NiGHTS levels are a grass-scene. I think we can safely say that a good reason for this is because a grass theme is easy to decorate. Try decorating a mountain, it's a lot harder. Even NiD's mountain level had to have a mechanical theme mixed in, and with that, it still wasn't scenic. Sure, it looked good, but it wasn't scenic at all.

BlueZero4 said:

I'm really surprised Spring Hill isn't graphically glitchy. I wouldn't be surprised if that has to do with the fact that it's just a flat plain with a bunch of scenery obscuring the sheer distance of a NiGHTS level. I mean, I seriously don't blame Digiku for all those graphical glitches. As soon as I said "This isn't working, let's make it bigger," I was practically welcoming software glitches with open arms.

Click to expand...

The way I see it, with NiGHTS, you should be playing in OpenGL. The visual glitches are just too prominent otherwise. I know, I know, some people can't use OpenGL, OpenGL is unsupported, blah blah blah. But it just doesn't work otherwise, and you'd be going through more trouble than it's worth, just to fix the visual glitches that are there. Besides, OpenGL doesn't have the obnoxious pixelation that Software does, and since NiGHTS levels are meant to be as visual as possible...

Also, I highly recommend you play NiGHTS into Dreams before you release this. Simply because you should get a good feel of the original game and what it's meant to be like.

I'd love to, but I don't have a Saturn or a copy of NiD. I've played Journey of Dreams, but I don't think that counts. I mean, yes, it has the on-track enemies and half-decent bosses, as well as some decent gimmicks, but the controls are really clunky when the camera isn't looking NiGHTS straight on. After playing Journey of Dreams and then coming back to SRB2, SRB2 feels a lot more responsive.

My reason for playing in software is that, honestly, I've been trained to design the theme of my levels for how software handles lighting. I mean, I can play GFZ1 in OpenGL and be okay with it, but I really don't like OpenGL when I'm playing my own levels. I've already cleared out a lot of software glitches by making everything low-poly to boot.

As far as bosses are concerned, I think I'd like to separate the boss from the vulnerable spots. I'd like to have 4 objects on the NiGHTS track, and have the player kill those in order to defeat the boss. Good idea?

I think you should make a sector-based boss with a lot of A_LinedefExecute. Or something like that.

Did you play Journey of Dreams with the Wii Remote? If so, then use a GameCube controller. It works a lot better that way.

As much as that seems halfa like a good idea, I can't see tracking damage very well. If it can be done, it won't be very practical.

BlueZero4 said:

Which brings me to my next point. Should I be using a particular nodebuilder to help cut down on the graphical glitches? I've been using ZDBSP with normal ol' DB for a while, mainly because the version of ZenNode included with DB can't handle it. I tried using the version of ZenNode included in SRB2DB, and I must say, it feels good. It builds the nodes faster than ZDBSP, although I can't say I've noticed a (significant) drop in software glitches. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

The only difference between the version of ZenNode included with SRB2DB and that packaged with vanilla DB is that the former supports SRB2's extended map numbers.

Since no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, I'll take this opportunity to point out that SRB2DB can be configured to show the NiGHTS track, thus:

Oogaland said:

The only difference between the version of ZenNode included with SRB2DB and that packaged with vanilla DB is that the former supports SRB2's extended map numbers.

Click to expand...

Do you has source code to Zennode? Can yous add polyobject support plz?

SSNTails said:

Do you has source code to Zennode?

Click to expand...

ZenNode is GPLed, and binaries and source are available together at http://www.mrousseau.org/programs/ZenNode/.

SSNTails said:

Can yous add polyobject support plz?

Click to expand...

To the BLOCKMAP? I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to begin, but would be willing to give it a shot at some point in the pre-1.1 future -- I expect you'd be better-equipped to do so than I would, though. Also, (some) polyobjects can move, right...? o_o