Sonic Ability Design Contest (SADC) Voting Thread

Went through the majority of the game with most of these abilities last night. I'll try to keep my thoughts on each as short and straightforward as possible.

The Climb Thok could be renamed to the Swim Thok and it wouldn't be inaccurate, it's seriously strong underwater lmao. This isn't an insult or anything either, it made moving around in large underwater areas more fun. Otherwise, it's functionally similar to Katmint's old comet dash (which was already commented on by both of you in the original thread), but without the extra dashes or something else to potentially regain even a bit of speed it doesn't feel too satisfying to really do anything with. It seems like you were aiming to make it as simple as possible, but I feel like you could've let yourself loose a bit more for the sake of raw fun. I also appreciate you making a seperate skin for the ability!

The Momentum Thok feels pretty nice to get going, but it builds up incredibly quickly and there aren't too many places in the base game to take advantage of it. This makes it feel too situational to my liking.

I actually had to boot up the game again to remember what the EX Thok did. It's definitely the most difficult to understand, which is a bit ironic given it doesn't actually change too much. It's more thought out than the basic thok, but it's lack of straightforward conveyance and ultimately not being too different from what's already there hinders it in my opinion.

The Comet Drop is easily my favorite out of all of these. The momentum based initial dash and "climb" sending you higher according to your speed are excellent. The recurling(and dash out of recurl!), drop dash, increased spindash time, and slightly better(?) spindash control all brings the experience together. My only current gripe is that you have to press spin to drop dash after a comet dash. I assume this was done on purpose, but it'd be a lot easier to understand if jump did the same thing. Either way, this was the most fun I've had playing Sonic in awhile...good job!

The Rebound Dash felt similar to the old Comet Dash not unlike the Climb Thok. It being momentum based and having a second dash makes it feel more natural, though. It's nice and simple.

The Juke Thok felt a bit strange, as it seems like it'd be more useful for tripping up opponents in multiplayer modes than actually traversing a map. It's already been mentioned in the thread how the camera not affecting the direction causes some confusion as how to actually use it, but that was a problem I initially had too. I think it could be potentially fun in something like battlemod but otherwise I don't really have any strong thoughts on it.

It probably speaks to how much we all like thok that we all tried to find ways to make it better, rather than coming up with something completely new.
The lack of anyone doing anything outside of an air dash was actually surprising. Sonic's had a double jump in a handful of games now as well, so no one attempting to do something with that was also a surprise. You all seem like reasonably skilled people so everyone simply iterating on what was already there rather than doing something more unique was a little disappointing, honestly. I and everyone else enjoy these for what they're worth, but let yourselves loose next time!
 
Rebound Dash is the easiest for me to pick up and play without a doubt.
Comet Dash could use for an easier to access Drop Dash to exchange for its lack of speed, Cobalt's mod being my preference for how it would work.
Momentum Thok has the most speedrunning potential but is also even less beginner-friendly than the current Thok.
Although I prefer how Rebound Dash deals with crashing into walls, Climb Thok is a simple addition to make the current Thok more controllable. Does nothing about you flying into pits though.
EX Thok is a simple mod that reminds me how much I wish I had a backwards Thok when playing certain levels.
Juke Thok just doesn't feel fast enough for Sonic.
Other 2 were memes that got a chuckle out of me, What the Thok being the funnier of the two.
 
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I could remove the momentum lock, but the issue with that is attempting to climb angled walls results in you sliding off them instead. I wanted to prioritise the ability's use as a safety net for undershot jumps.

I understand the idea. I think someone else mentioned about inputs. Maybe if players strafe it angles it rather than continuing the way he's facing?

Personally I don't see angled walls being the problematic areas for platforming. Usually it is FOF or near walls that are already flat, so I don't even think there is a problem with your GIF. That seems to offer a lot more utility to the move, however I imagine it needs more play testing to be confident on that. I do think it would be more interesting to chain horizontal wall thoks with the drop dash.
 
Infinite respects to Rebound Dash:




 
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My only current gripe is that you have to press spin to drop dash after a comet dash. I assume this was done on purpose, but it'd be a lot easier to understand if jump did the same thing. Either way, this was the most fun I've had playing Sonic in awhile...good job!
I had to put it on spin only because the whirlwind shield is dumb and hardcoded to jump during spring/fall frames. There's no way to override it without silly control swap hacks that would probably cause other issues. Lua does have a hook for shield abilities but it can't touch the whirlwind "emergency" jump at all despite being able to override its normal jump.

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It's also usable after hitting springs (and any other time Sonic is in spring/fall frames), so it's meant to be situational for gaining speed in the same way Amy's ability is for gaining height. That said, the primary reason it was designed like that is to avoid replacing the ability when Sonic gets a shield. Any sort of native jumpspin ability for Sonic would require a drastic rework of shields.

I don't really feel like the drop dash benefits all too much from being that situational. Amy's spring ability exists to give a small amount of added vertical mobility to a vertically-stunted character. Meanwhile, Sonic is meant to be all about a high potential for speed, in theory, no? That's what makes him unique, and the main reason to play him over Tails or Knuckles, other than to challenge the player. That's why there's so much resistance to nerfing the thok in the first place, after all.

And as for the technical reason, the solution to that would be to put the drop dash on jump instead of spin, since either way you can only use it after doing the comet dash anyway.

I know that, as you've said, the reason it's not on jump is because of the whirlwind shield emergency jump that activates no matter what if you press "jump" during falling frames, but personally I'd much rather have the dropdash everywhere but falling frames than have it exclusively during falling frames.

There are, after all, two common instances in which the player will be in falling frames. One being after bouncing on a spring, but setting aside the fact that there's no precedent for Sonic being able to drop dash off a spring in the game that the move originates from, is there really a pressing need for added horizontal mobility off a spring? I feel like the springs, at least in vanilla's stages, are placed well enough that such an ability doesn't really have many uses, or at least not nearly as many as a drop dash that can be used pretty much anywhere.

The other time that a player might expect to go into falling frames, and the one more relevant to the comet dash, is after a wall climb. But the wall climb's main purposes are either as a saving ability or to get a small extra boost of vertical mobility in a place where Sonic normally wouldn't be able to, right? So then, I feel it makes sense that using it would lead to a loss of speed. Ideally when trying to keep up a good flow, you'd be able to avoid using the wall climb wherever it doesn't save time to use it.

The way that I see it, the comet dash and drop dash combine to form the two different elements that make up the thok—mobility and speed. By splitting the thok essentially in half, you provide the player a great mobility option and a great speed option separately, instead of forcing the player to use one move for both purposes, with all the risk that comes with it.

That's exactly what I like about this combo so much, and why I think, out of all the abilities here, it's the best basis for a new move to replace Sonic's default vanilla ability.

Even without the freely-usable drop dash, it's still my favorite of the bunch.
 
I had to put it on spin only because the whirlwind shield is dumb and hardcoded to jump during spring/fall frames. There's no way to override it without silly control swap hacks that would probably cause other issues. Lua does have a hook for shield abilities but it can't touch the whirlwind "emergency" jump at all despite being able to override its normal jump.
Pffft, seriously??? Though honestly that's about the kind of bizarre thing I've come to expect from the game at this point...here's hoping that changes in the future.

I don't really feel like the drop dash benefits all too much from being that situational. Amy's spring ability exists to give a small amount of added vertical mobility to a vertically-stunted character. Meanwhile, Sonic is meant to be all about a high potential for speed, in theory, no? That's what makes him unique, and the main reason to play him over Tails or Knuckles, other than to challenge the player. That's why there's so much resistance to nerfing the thok in the first place, after all.
The drop dash being tied to fall frame recurling is fine as is in my opinion, but an easy way to expand it's usage would be to have Sonic actually enter his fall frames when well...falling. I honestly wish this was a thing to begin with, I know the classics didn't do it and using the walking/running frames is more "cartoony" but the falling frames are so much better for conveyance.
 
*This is a repost of the one I did on the official release page*
Alright! After testing them all out, I’ll give my opinions on each and every one.

ClimbThok: This one I had trouble figuring out when I first used it, and that’s saying a lot especially sense I picked up the Thok just fine, but this one gave me so much trouble. Once I found the purpose, it was still hard to find the utilities in this one. Platforming wise, the climb might be helpful, but like mentioned above, there’s no guarantee hugging the wall offers the ability climb it. (Unless I was doing something wrong?) and plus beginners will have trouble figuring out this one if I couldn’t even use it properly.

Momentum Thok: Besides the first impressions of being absolutely busted, I found that it has its uses if used correctly with the environment. Beginners may be turned away from using Sonic due to how fast you can go, maybe lowering the momentum gain for the ability as it makes it hard to control Sonic. Of course, for more advanced folk, this ability has potential to make record time in some levels if practiced well enough. Good ability!

ExThok: Everything that has been said before about this one stands for me as well. It’s just a Thok but it’s harder to spam. Beginner friendly and pretty balanced. Other than that, that’s a decent ability!

Comet Dash + Recurl DropDash: This one is probably the most advanced one out of all. The Comet Dash on its own is a really fun ability and personally my favorite sonic ability. The three dashes it offers although not as fast, really balanced and can help save bad jumps. The wall jump idea is also pretty good for not only platforming, but for better routing when speedrunning stages. Now, the Comet Dash in this... is decent? The one Dash mid-air is fine, and still helpful in the ways that the Thok is, but the wall jump is significantly worse, there’s zero control mid-air and (although this is how it works) also in spring state. Yes you can go into a Drop Dash afterwards, but feels clunky without the movement mid-air in that wall jump. Now the Drop Dash itself is perfectly fine as is. Don’t know if it should be possible to initiate it whenever (I.G when just jumping and pressing spin) but otherwise it’s fine.

Rebound Dash: This one I had a lot of fun with. It has a lot of uses and practicality along with it. It’s beginner friendly, works well to help beginners play the game, is useful for speedrunning and works well for more advanced players. The only thing is that I wish this would give out a bit more height in general, as it can feel a bit un-satisfying after hitting a wall and receiving a low jump without the correct angle. This will be my vote as it absolutely fits the criteria for a new official ability.

Juke Thok: This one kinda confused me? I can see how it’s helpful in terms of platforming, but it’s main purpose is minimal and not really useful half of the time. I wish I could give constructive criticism for this one, but I really don’t find any uses for this (and I’m really sorry if I come out as harsh in general >~<). And also this ability doesn’t work with Legacy.

Epic Ability for Sonic: Right, well this one is decent! Maybe as good as the original Thok, but feels lackluster compared to the viability of the Thok. Definitely not as beginner friendly and not really... responsive.

What the Thok: Thok the What¿

And that’s it! Hopefully I helped in some way, and everyone generally did a good job. Stay Safe people!
 
Here's my compiled thoughts about this contest.

Climb Thok

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A great idea. Only a true genius would ever think of making an air dash that also climbs up walls. That said, the climb is way too weak right now. It would feel a lot better if Sonic's existing momentum affected the height gain. Also, I noticed there's a few bugs in your script caused by common Lua oversights. Unlike SOC, most things you'll do in Lua won't automatically account for the player's scale, gravflip, or whether they're underwater. It can be annoying, but you'll need to manually check for these each time.

Momentum Thok

This is pretty much the exact opposite of the changes thok would need to be more beginner friendly. The overkill star thok is way too strong but it does have a nice visual effect that would go well with a super ability.

Exthok
The enhanced enemy bounce is pretty neat and is something I haven't seen anyone mention yet. I also noticed something was causing the Sonic CD jump sound to play sometimes, but I wasn't sure if that signaled anything. I've already expressed my issue with the momentum cut for releasing the button earlier in the thread, but other than that it does its job well as a "thok deluxe".

Juke Thok
I don't understand the point of this ability. It seems to be just a nerfed thok.

Rebound Dash

I can see you've been working quite hard on this since it's easily the most polished ability in the contest. It's pretty fun too, and most of my nitpicks with it have already been fixed by the updates in your thread. My primary concern is that the air dash is still faster than run speed which encourages mindless spam. I also think it may be a bit too difficult to use in Simple mode, but I'm not sure how you would address that. This is something I'll be messing around with on occasion even after the contest is over and it's nice to see a more realised take on the Comet Dash's initial janky prototype.

What the Thok

This reminds me of that Omochao in Sonic 1 hack with its overly long intrusive cutscenes.
 
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My favorites are the Comet Dash + Recurl Drop Dash and the Rebound Dash. But if I were to imagine one of these thoks replacing the current one in a future update, I just feel like the former is just a bit too complicated. Fun for a mod, just not something I see replacing vanilla. The Rebound Dash, I think, feels like a natural expansion for the current thok. I could see a new player discovering its usefulness by complete accident, barely missing a jump, and using the rebound to save themselves. If I were to take something from the Comet Dash + Recurl Drop Dash, it would be the the option to recurl in the air. I could see that being very useful.
 
I'm just coming in and voting at the last possible hour, oops. But I should add that my favourite abilities here are the Comet Dash + Recurl Dropdash and the Rebound Thok. I think the Rebound Thok has some interesting design, and it can even climb the vertical Knuckles/Fang AGZ room with some effort so it's certainly not weak. But I have to wonder if it might be a little strange for new players to encounter it as their first ability, which is a huge part of why people are even talking about changing the thok in the first place.

But the Comet Dash + Recurl DropDash, now that's an ability I really enjoy. The extra vertical mobility giving Sonic a limited ability to climb over obstacles like Tails or Knuckles is nice, but it feels really good to climb up a ledge, curl into a drop dash and immediately start moving at high speed again in one swift movement without having to wait to hit the ground and double-tap jump for another thok. I think it has a fantastic game feel and I just had a great time playing through the vanilla campaign with that ability. While I have no idea what official plans are for the thok, but I think I'd be happy to see this make its way into the vanilla game with a few tweaks to the momentum of the dash itself and some other details such as how vertical conveyor belts should affect the climbing ability of the comet dash as well.

Also What the Thok is very silly, thanks Zipper you absolute cad.
 
Alright, with that, the voting period is over! I will hopefully get around to updating the first post tomorrow with the results!
 
Well that took a while, been writing this for days, thats what happens when life catches up to you (hope its ok to do this after the contest is over). Anyhow, now that i played around with all the them thoks for like a couple of hours im going to try to be succinct and eloquent in showing my opinions and probably falling at just that.
I also have a ranking on them with multiple categories (i have a chart and everything) so let me just quickly say what they are.

Fun (F)- pretty clear, the abilities, gamefeel, interesting things i can do with it, and even visual effects.
Begginer friendly (B)- how accessible it is, and if it helps sonic in traversing the levels in any way.
Character (C)- i like to see story telling in game mechanics, and while srb2 isnt known for its narritive, i always try to see it regardless (metal sonic is the best example of what i mean, communicating character throught its design). so what the abilities say about sonic and if they fit with him.
Exploration (E)- i think one of sonic main traits is that he has to interact with the levels layouts and gimmicks way more than some characters who fly, glide/climb, jump and/or hover. he showcases the level's design much more in depth, and for the most part, i think it should stay like that.
Perserving the feel of the thok (P)- the thok is important because it is *the* reason why sonic feels like the fastest character (and its kinda iconic at this point), and is also used for nice redirecting of momentum (this doesnt mean that if one deviates from this then its bad per say).
Super (S)- just how it feels, i wont be talking about it tho
(btw the ranking is 1 through 5, with some decimals because im crippled with indecision)

Climbthok-(F) 3, (B) 3.5, (C) 3, (E) 2, (P) 3, (S) 3
this ability is just alright, and for me it misses the mark in general. It doesnt help make the thok more manageable and it halts sonics movement since you need to be close to travel the highest in walls (and hes slow when doing that as well). I do see that it helps beginners, but the climb isnt good enough to rectify mistake for the most part anyway. My main gripe tho is that it makes sonic have a much higher "jump" allowing him to pass a lot of parts, which i dont feel sonic needs nor should do (and while other abilities will also give him more height, they have other things at play to make it more acceptable and/or, while the climbthok only has the climbing to it). The problem with sonic is with controling him, so basically this adds something to sonic without really fixing anything. However, i do like that the thok is aimed with the directions of the keys and not with the camera, makes for cool platforming. In general, i dont think this "kit" of moves is bad, it just doesnt flow well.

Momentumthok-(F) 5, (B) 4, (C) 4, (E) 4, (P) 5,(S) 5
ok now this is some good stuff, this was the most fun ability for me without a doubt. Not only does it lower the skill floor by making the thok more manageable initially but also increasing the skill celling by making you manage the speed and mantain it at full power. People are complaining that sonic should have a jump thok, then bam, its here in the best way, giving just enough height to not feel wrong for sonic. You can even spindash to get the full power thok immediately so you can utilize it even if its too hard. But the main reason why i think this ability is good for begginers is because it teaches the right lesson. The increase in momentum imediatly tells someone to be smart with its usage, and what kinda play style sonic rewards, unlike the normal thok, since i have heard many people say its just badly designed and cant use it right (more specifically i think theres ambiguity on how to use the thok and when, while this one makes it more clear by itself). I also love the effects it has. Honestly it feels like the boost mechanic merged with srb2 sensibilities. That also works wonders in making sonic and mecha sonic feel more like foils, them both have a special state that gives more speed. The only complaints i have is that its clearly a bit over powered, which does make it fun, but not super apt for a vanilla character, and when doing a thok with no momentum theres almost no vertical height gained from it, which i think would be a tiny frustrating for first timers. But honestly those are easy fixes, which speaks to the strength of the design overall.

Exthok- (F) 3, (B) 5, (C) 3 ,(E) 4 ,(P) 4.5 (S) 3.5
this ability instead of adding anything new, just tries to make the thok more approachable in multiple ways, and does some quality of life inprovements, which in my opinion kinda works. The thok is just a tad slower but not too slow, thoking backwards can save you on a tight spot and thoking after bouncing on enemies is fun and rewards interacting with them, something that isnt very common unfortunaly. I think the idea of holding the jump button for a stronger thok is pretty good, and that would honestly work even better in the vanilla thok (the minimun there being closer to the maximum of the exthok). Its a simple way of giving more control, even if i personally prefer the way momentum thok does it. In general, although it doesnt have the same pazzez the other abilities have, its perfectly serviceable.

Comet Dash + Recurl DropDash- (F) 4.5, (B) 4, (C) 3, (E) 3, (P) 1.5, (S) 4
man this ones a doozy, it massively overalls sonics movement and that comes with its strengths and weaknesses. I feel like the main idea was to balance sonics tools and thats clear immediately with its thok, since its no longer about giving speed. The thok is now a platforming tool, which is what beginners try to use it for to begin with, a "gating mechanism" for the dropdash, and for retaining momentum. You cant easily access the dropdash, making the spindash way more useful, especially now since its way faster at reaching top speed while charging as well (something i feel vanilla desperately needs, since why use spindash when you have the thok which gives instant top speed and is way more versatile). Even the spindash while moving is useful now, since it and the thok both work with the current momentum, so if you do them both (aka landing in a rolling state, jumping, thoking, repeat) youll mantain top speed, which is way more involved than just thoking all the time. Im still not a fan of the climbing mechanic by itself, since i dont think sonic needs it, but unlike climbthok, which felt a bit flaccid given it didnt add anything worthwhile to sonic, the comet dash couldnt be more different. Even tho its slow, it gives the dropdash, which is useful in midair and on ground, its really versatile, and because of its restrictions it cant be abused, aka you have to think of what you are doing to take good advantage of it. i like that sonics midair movement is kinda nerfed because, lets be honest, sonic is a land mammal, he belongs on the ground, running is his shtick, and the fact that you have to use the enviroment to achieve speed in the air goes well with that, feels kinda right with sonic. It rewards players who use the level in smart ways, makes every wall into a potential tool for sonic. So in general all the abilities in sonic now ebb and flow in a really cohesive way... in theory, but there are multiples things that make it not so. I have two major problems, the dropdash feels way too hard to get, and this is only a problem because the thok doesnt give speed, and while it can maintain momentum and go super fast, in normal speed it feels honestly like a wet fart (probably because of the trail effect). One good thing about the vannila thok is that it not only makes you literally faster, but it also feels faster, which is really important, and these abilities just lack that. It actually has the reverse affect, you are more limited and you feel more limited. this is why the boost system works for example, on paper its a really boring ability, but it nails the feeling its trying to achieve. If i where to give a solution, i would make the comet dash be only the way it is if you hold the jump button, if not, you do a nerfed vanilla thok thats just a tad faster than normal top running speed. But even just that i feel like already messes with the delicate but effective balance of the overall design. A separate but glaring problem is that its also way too complicated. While this is fine for a custom wad, for a vanilla character its too much. thats one of the vanilla characters key traits. The very fact that you need to press spin in the air is already too much, since it clashes with shields--not has much as other fan characters, but it still does. (honestly i would love if the creator did a wad with this kit and maybe some other things to it, would be super dope). It definitely has its problems, but i would say even tho i prefer other abilities when it comes to specific aspects, i think this one is my favorite. Its not only smartly design and has depth, but it makes my head spin with creativity. It shakes the status quo of the thok and offers a lot of interesting ideas, its the only one to change the thok to its core (expect another one, but ill get to that). Freaking good job.

Rebound Dash- (F) 5, (B) 4, (C) 4.5, (E) 4, (P) 4, (S) 4
this one is imo the most effective evolution of sonics thok out of all of these. Its pretty simple, it retains the feeling of speed of the thok, its good for beginners because its what they already do (going into the wall), so it even teaches itself. its kinda like a jump thok, since if you dont nail a jump it gives you a change to retreat or the extra height you needed. Its effects are great, especially the one that tells you cant thok into walls that knuckles cant climb, perfect at conveying its limits. And its super versatile if you are skilled with it, without being too overpowered. It might give more height than i would like for sonic, but unlike the climb mechanics in the other abilities, this one feels just right for sonic, instead of slowly ascending on a wall, he just slams into it to gain the upper hand, it goes so well with his genral attitude. Not really many complaints, its just pretty solid.

JukeThok- (F) 1, (B) 3, (C) 1 , (E) 3, (P) 1, (S) 3
oh boy i really dont wanna come off as mean, but this is the worst one by a land slide. Im guessing the idea is making the thok for redirecting sonic while moving and primarily for juking enemies, as the name implies. But this just doesnt work, the thok is way too reliant on momentum, you literally dont move if you use it while standing still, and even if you use to go forward while running if feels less powerful than exthoks least powerful thok. You do move a lot more when you do it while pressing the direction keys to the left or right, but even then its not very reliable, you either go way further or almost nothing. I ended up always thoking sideways to get some idea of speed. I fail to see how this would help anybody in playthroughs, you cant even use it that well on bosses, since you can just jump and avoid attacks without too much hassle, and while moving the thok still goes forward, so you cant even hit enemies very easily with it. Heck the climbthok does what this ability tries to do way better, you press the direction and thok to there, good for rederection and even better for juking. I really would like to say positives about this but i just dont see it man, i would love if the creator talked about the process behind it, to at least understand why it is the way it is, but for know its gonna be a no for me unfortunately.

What the thok- (F) 5
pretty funny, caught me super off guard, was nice to see how it this whole thing started.

Epic Ability- rankings are irelevant
other than being too overpowered (should probably be exclusive to super sonic), its amazing, the creator is clearly playing 4D chest with this one.

This was super fun, tbh i would love if contests like this would become something a bit regular, maybe annual or something (maybe have a charmy wad contest, its the least we can do for him).

oh yeah uuuh final verdict is


play as tails
 
Heads up! The first post has been edited with awards for our winners!

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this event very much, I think it was a lot of fun to hold a contest like this!
 
The Rebound Dash is absolutely the most fun and most intuitive ability in this contest, but I'm curious how helpful it would actually be to a brand new player. I feel I have trouble using it effectively as it is.
 
The Rebound Dash is absolutely the most fun and most intuitive ability in this contest, but I'm curious how helpful it would actually be to a brand new player. I feel I have trouble using it effectively as it is.

Personally, I've found that I had to learn to let go of W for tight platforming. If I'm holding forward, the rebound thok will have too much momentum, and I'll fall off. But if I'm rebounding onto a platform with plenty of space, it's not an issue. Personally, I'd make it so that the rebound thok is always weak, since its primary purpose will be saving the player from a near miss of a platform.
 

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