Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

I'm with Spiky and CobaltBW on this. The inability to cancel Super makes it less convenient, but more importantly, it makes it more interesting. Besides making you face a clever trade-off in when to activate Super, it makes the experience of using Super stand out more, because there's even more incentive than there'd otherwise be to go fast through the level and collect lots of rings. (After all, if you're moving too slowly through an area where rings are too sparse, you can't just turn Super off and then turn it back on when you've replenished your ring count a bit.) Plus, since you can collect rings more reliably when you're moving more slowly and carefully and taking detours to hidden ring monitors and such, the experience of using non-cancelable Super creates another interesting trade-off for the player. At any given moment, they have to ask themselves "Should I go fast so I can encounter more rings and finish the level before I run out, at the risk of not collecting enough rings on the way and running out anyway? Or should I slow down a bit to try and get more rings out of this area, at the risk of spending too much time here for too little gain?"

BlueSmoke said:

Yeah, but it would be nice to have it as an option, and not be forced. Like in Sonic 3C, super-cancelling wasn't even forced in the first place. It was an option, it was for players who didn't like that style of using Super. Also, I forgot to mention, that super cancelling comes with its own risk. Cancelling your super form does mean you get to preserve it, but you also risk losing all your rings and only being able to recover a small percentage, making you have to meet the ring quota again if you want to turn Super again.
You could also add a cooldown to the feature, making it even riskier.
But at the very least, I would much prefer super cancelling as a option.

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If you drop below 50 rings and cancel, you also can't change back until you get enough rings again.

GrayAngel said:

If you drop below 50 rings and cancel, you also can't change back until you get enough rings again.

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Yes. Another trade-off super cancelling has.

---------- Post added at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

742mph said:

I'm with Spiky and CobaltBW on this. The inability to cancel Super makes it less convenient, but more importantly, it makes it more interesting. Besides making you face a clever trade-off in when to activate Super, it makes the experience of using Super stand out more, because there's even more incentive than there'd otherwise be to go fast through the level and collect lots of rings. (After all, if you're moving too slowly through an area where rings are too sparse, you can't just turn Super off and then turn it back on when you've replenished your ring count a bit.) Plus, since you can collect rings more reliably when you're moving more slowly and carefully and taking detours to hidden ring monitors and such, the experience of using non-cancelable Super creates another interesting trade-off for the player. At any given moment, they have to ask themselves "Should I go fast so I can encounter more rings and finish the level before I run out, at the risk of not collecting enough rings on the way and running out anyway? Or should I slow down a bit to try and get more rings out of this area, at the risk of spending too much time here for too little gain?"

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Yes, you make a solid point here. This is why I wanted it to be a option, of whether the player wanted to deal with the trade-offs of super-cancelling, or whether they preferred to deal with the original's way of handling super forms.

Why don't you make that a mod and see how people respond to it?

I'm kinda surprised no one's made a mod like that already...

BlueSmoke said:

Yeah, but it would be nice to have it as an option, and not be forced. Like in Sonic 3C, super-cancelling wasn't even forced in the first place. It was an option, it was for players who didn't like that style of using Super. Also, I forgot to mention, that super cancelling comes with its own risk. Cancelling your super form does mean you get to preserve it, but you also risk losing all your rings and only being able to recover a small percentage, making you have to meet the ring quota again if you want to turn Super again.
You could also add a cooldown to the feature, making it even riskier.
But at the very least, I would much prefer super cancelling as a option.

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In my mind, an option means mapping one of the button/key commands to cancel super, so we either allow super cancelling or we don't. Modders can always script it in/out as necessary.

I can certainly see why some people enjoy the accessibility of a cancel action, but I would personally want to workshop some sort of counterweight before I were to consider it.

CobaltBW said:

In my mind, an option means mapping one of the button/key commands to cancel super, so we either allow super cancelling or we don't. Modders can always script it in/out as necessary.

I can certainly see why some people enjoy the accessibility of a cancel action, but I would personally want to workshop some sort of counterweight before I were to consider it.

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I meant option as like an option to enable/disable in Options, similar to how Sonic 3C did it. I also think the Spin button (same button used to transform) would work out. I'm also not sure what you meant by workshopping a counterweight, I'm not familiar with that stuff yet.

The only idea I have is giving Fang a shotgun and you won't need to stand still to shoot, but it seems other people share the same great idea with me. :)

glaber said:

Why don't you make that a mod and see how people respond to it?

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Good idea!

---------- Post added at 01:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------

GrayAngel said:

I'm kinda surprised no one's made a mod like that already...

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Yeah, now that you mention it, it is kinda weird for it not to be a mod already.
I want to create a mod like that, but I know absolutely nothing about modding, let alone modding SRB2.

CobaltBW said:

I don't see how that's a design flaw, personally.

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In Sonic 2 you automatically turn super when you just jump so if you didn't want to you'll turn into anyway.


Sonic 3 had the decency of having you use the jump button twice but it also meant that you weren't able to use the insta-shield nor turning super when having an elemental shield.


Sonic 3 Complete had the good idea that you needed to press another jump button after the jump to turn super (like A -> B for exemple).


Super Sonic is supposed to be a reward, being able to cancel it should be a part of the reward (especially since he's hard to control in precise platforming sections).

Icarus said:

In Sonic 2 you automatically turn super when you just jump so if you didn't want to you'll turn into anyway.


Sonic 3 had the decency of having you use the jump button twice but it also meant that you weren't able to use the insta-shield nor turning super when having an elemental shield.

Sonic 3 Complete had the good idea that you needed to press another jump button after the jump to turn super (like A -> B for exemple).

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I mean, we could debate the efficacy of those transform methods, but obviously that isn't fully relevant here since SRB2's transform method uses spin in midair. Dedicating transform or de-transform to its own button also means increasing the number of mandatory button mappings for players.

Super Sonic is supposed to be a reward, being able to cancel it should be a part of the reward (especially since he's hard to control in precise platforming sections).

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I'd argue Super Sonic is already extremely rewarding, and whatever drawbacks exist on the ability are there help to raise the stakes. Whether those stakes should be there is ultimately prescriptive, and depends a lot on how many people feel it detracts from or adds to the gameplay.

I've personally always disliked the idea of Super cancel, because it removes the tension of the ring loss mechanic. If I don't get enough rings before using Super, or I can't maintain my ring count while Super, then I think I should be punished with having 0 rings for even just a little bit. It's the single, small trade-off for near total invincibility and a huge speed & jump buff, and it adds even just the tiniest layer to skill to using it. I'm of the opinion that in game design, convenience isn't always the better option. I think things that should be streamlined are things that are archaic -- stuff should be more convenient when there wasn't a choice created by it.

What I do sort of like about Super cancelling is that it helps the problem of accidentally activating Super form when you didn't want to. But it feels like the wrong way to go about it -- instead of letting you switch back and forth, I've always thought that it should be harder to activate on accident. Setting the activation to Jump & Spin was a good step in the right direction to that end though, and honestly might be enough as is.

But if everyone still thinks it's too easy, I've always thought about Super form being hold Jump & Spin, instead of tapping it. You would have to hold it for the entire duration of the transform animation; if you let go before it finishes, then you don't go Super. It's not a perfect idea though, it could introduce some strange tech with using the animation to halt momentum or avoid damage. There could be ways to work around those issues too, or it might not even be considered problems and be totally desirable to have it as a technique. Just putting it out there to say that there can be clever ways to work around issues with something without removing unique things about it.

There actually are mods that let you cancel super. Me, I don't think it is a big deal and some characters, like Sonic, might already have special actions when using Spin in the air.
And yeah, my Steam Controller only has so many buttons, so I dunno if I could fit in a button whose only purpose is Super(I already don't think I have all the custom Buttons mapped)
Besides, the new Super theme is good, so I don't feel the need to turn it off almost immediately like I did in Sonic 3.
One thing that always confused me was why you couldn't transform with Shields.

So to recap: On the one hand, we should not have Super cancel because it makes the form too broken and obsoletes one of its few drawbacks. On the other hand, we should have Super cancel since Super forms are supposed to be the ultimate reward in the first place and thus it's okay for them to be overpowered.

Ladies, gents, I believe I have the solution.

Sting the Cat said:

One thing that always confused me was why you couldn't transform with Shields.

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It's assumed that players are more likely to want to use their shield ability when the button is pressed, rather than to transform. This is also why, in Sonic 3&K, Tails and Knuckles could transform while shields were equipped even though Sonic could not.

I'm also against the idea of "Super cancel". I, too, feel that going Super should be a commitment, and that one should not be able to exit it whenever one would like, instead having to personally weigh the pros and cons of going Super for its benefits compared to staying non-Super to get some more rings first.

CobaltBW said:

It's assumed that players are more likely to want to use their shield ability when the button is pressed, rather than to transform. This is also why, in Sonic 3&K, Tails and Knuckles could transform while shields were equipped even though Sonic could not.

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Ah. Makes sense. Granted, in that game, Tails and Knuckles had the even WORSE problem of "GOD DANGIT, I WAS TRYING TO FLY/GLIDE, THANKS GAME FOR MAKING ME TRANSFORM INSTEAD"

That said, ignoring the overpoweredness debate, the point that some characters(only Sonic so far, but who knows) have spin abilities while Super, and adding another button specifically for detransformation is ALSO not really ideal, as it adds one more button people have to work into their control schemes.

in Sonic 3 and knuckles, Tails and Knuckles can't use the shield abilities anyway.

This also applies to Mania.

No Super Cancelling and Super Cancelling all have it's own trade-offs. I say have it as an option in settings, so the player can choose which style they like.

Goldenhog said:

So to recap: On the one hand, we should not have Super cancel because it makes the form too broken and obsoletes one of its few drawbacks. On the other hand, we should have Super cancel since Super forms are supposed to be the ultimate reward in the first place and thus it's okay for them to be overpowered.

Ladies, gents, I believe I have the solution.

Spoiler

Introduce Hyper forms as a higher, even more ultimate reward - and make cancelling exclusive to those.

:D

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