Metal Sonic Character Discussion

  • How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
  • Considering how he plays, personally, as I'm newer to the game... he plays fine, if fairly boring. Rather, Metal Sonic plays it safe, allowing you to go fast with a safety net... and movement that, aside from hover, is largely like Sonic.
  • Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
  • No. Boostmode, while abuseable, is hard to maintain without a certain mod, and as stated a few times previously in the thread, doesn't play well with the level design. Hover mode offers an interesting alternative to Flight and Glide, and allows you to reach higher, and higher with observant use of the hover mode, jumping off of incrementally higher platforms to boost your hover's height. While time consuming, I feel this is a fair tradeoff for hover. However, it doesn't take skill, but patience.
  • How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
  • ... I hesitantly say contributes, only because playing as Metal Sonic is always a plus in my eyes. He doesn't offer anything overwhelmingly unique like Amy or Fang, nor does he laugh at level design quite as easily as Tails or Knuckles. Overall, he's... balanced, in a sense. Which is odd for an endgame reward.
  • The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
  • No. I would prefer he gain all his boss and race abilities to truly set him apart from the cast. Able to lock on and fire plasma balls from the air at the cost of momentum, and entirely replacing his spindash with a chargeable boostmode that is similar to how it is currently. This gives Metal his own feel, apart from Sonic or anything else.
 
(I, too, will bump this topic...)
I have increasingly grown warm to the idea of replacing Metal Sonic's toolkit with Sonic's, and giving Sonic a different ability set that better matches his status as the entry-level title character.
Echoing points from previous discussion, I agree that the Thok is an iconic part of SRB2. I also agree that hiding the Thok behind the end of the game is probably good design.

However, I'm a little bit attached to Metal Sonic's boost mode (see below). Thok and Boost Mode on the same character seems like one of those "mayonaise plus pickles" things, where it sounds weird, but I shouldn't knock it until I try it.

Granted, I could just make a P_SKIN real fast and see for myself...

How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?

So, I've actually been thinking a lot about this.

I've been slowly trying to digest the current state of the game after v2.2's release, mostly toward the goal of designing levels. One of the main focuses of my design investigation has been "How do you design for every character?"

  • Sonic - Sonic jumps far but low. Sonic likes to have room to run.
  • Tails - Makes long flights. Avoids most platforming challenges. Not sure how to design for him.
  • Knuckles - Can go anywhere, as long as he has a continuous climbable surface to follow. Breaks Sonic's connection between height and chronology. Can see the big picture of the landscape. Wants a bunch of stuff to find while exploring. A little bit blind to the intended level route.
  • Amy - The highjump character. Jumps up 128 blocks (Sonic jumps 96). Using the hammer in melee is fun, but doesn't have level design implications.
  • Fang - A troll. Jumps 256 from a bounce. Continuous bouncing is very, very powerful. Gun affects combat, not level design.
  • Metal Sonic - Hover retains Sonic's height/chronology relationship, but makes him a troll for long horizontal sections. Boost Mode creates waterrun.
I have absolutely no idea how to design levels around Metal Sonic's hover mode. Oops, he's skipping the level's platforming, I guess I can't change that.

Designing around Boost Mode -- especially the waterrun ability -- seems more interesting, because water surfaces suddenly become an important pathway. However, I'm not sure how deep the design space of "designing levels around waterrun" actually is.

I think about the "exploration" gameplay loop as being:
  • Notice a place to go
  • Plan a route to get there, using your character's tool set
  • Execute the plan
  • Pick a new place to go, and repeat
I do think that waterrun could be an interesting tool when making level traversal decisions. Maybe boost mode should be a little bit easier to activate, so that waterrun can be used in more situations.

However, I think that Metal Sonic's hover ability makes the waterrun function of boost mode a little obsolete. It's much easier to hover over water than to waterrun using boost mode.

If level design implications were the only issue on the table, I would want Metal Sonic's hover removed (not sure what to replace it with), and his waterrun made easier to activate.

If Metal Sonic gets totally redesigned in a way that also creates level design opportunities, I'd be okay with that too.

(For context, I'll note that I'm primarily interested in "How do different characters inhabit the same level area differently?" (umwelt). The question "How do I design a character-specific segment that leverages their unique powers?" is less interesting to me.)
 
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Thok and Boost Mode on the same character seems like one of those "mayonaise plus pickles" things, where it sounds weird, but I shouldn't knock it until I try it.

I think the thok and Boost Mode would be a very effective combination. Boost Mode makes you more powerful, but only as long as you keep going fast. Crashing into walls is the main cause of slowing down too much and losing Boost Mode. The thok immediately changes your direction of motion, allowing you to turn sharply and avoid crashing into walls, and sends you flying fast enough to retain Boost Mode. When I first heard people suggesting taking away Sonic's thok and giving it to Metal Sonic, I assumed they wanted to keep Metal's Boost Mode too, for exactly this reason.
 
If Thok and Boost Mode were to be put together it could be done like FSonic where the Thok is weaker, but it would carry your momentum. That way you could encourage players to keep their speed by giving an easy way to redirect what they gained, while also keeping them from just pressing jump twice from a standstill for a free Boost Mode
 
If Thok and Boost Mode were to be put together it could be done like FSonic where the Thok is weaker, but it would carry your momentum. That way you could encourage players to keep their speed by giving an easy way to redirect what they gained, while also keeping them from just pressing jump twice from a standstill for a free Boost Mode

Of course, activating Boost Mode requires you to maintain high speed for a period of time, so even if the thok was as fast as it is now, you wouldn't be able to activate Boost Mode for free just by using it once.
 
Metal Sonic feels like a better realized version of the Super concept as a whole in my opinion. In a way, he feels like the "New Game Plus" of SRB2 with an overpowered, yet really fun and rewarding moveset. My only complaint with him is that his Super feels like Sonic's but slightly better. I wouldn't mind if the team went full hog with his OPness and do stuff like letting him use his laser chest thing while on Super mode but that's just me.

Really, he's simply a blast to use as an endgame reward but if the devs think he's too OP then I also wouldn't mind if he had other requirements that aren't just beating the game.
 
How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?

I like it, but once I realized his hover was an ability he shared with Super Sonic, it made him feel a bit less special. Of course, he has access to it without a Super form, but still.

Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?

I'd say so. The Dash Mode is a little finicky, though. To echo what others have said, it's a little too easy to lose it. I like that the hover has a weakness, though. You have to keep up your momentum, or else you'll lose altitude, and you can't make tight turns with it.

How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?

I haven't played much online, but he seems fine. Not too OP, not too weak.

The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?

I'm so torn on this. While, yes, I do find playing Metal to be fun, and I don't want it taken away from people who do enjoy it, I do think it is possible to make him more distinct as a character.

How about a compromise? Keep Metal Sonic the same, and whatever ideas the devs have for overhauling Metal Sonic could go to a new character. Say maybe Metal Knuckles?
 
I've been vocal in the past regarding my opposition to replacing Metal Sonic's unique moveset with just being "old sonic", and that still remains true even now. I'm fine with Metal being changed entirely if need be, but I hate the idea of taking his uniqueness and just dumping Sonic's old moveset on him instead.

Some time has passed since the last time I contributed to this topic, in that time I have had my old PC become unusable and upgraded to a new, better PC. I have also had a lot of time to consider the matter, and my most recent thoughts on the matter are as follows:

I feel as though Metal as a playable character, in concept, should follow a mentality of being highly mobile and easy to control at slower speeds, capable of achieving incredible speeds, but become harder to control at higher speeds. Overall, his original incarnation somewhat lives up to this, however I would probably take a different approach to this. Specifically, I feel like he should have less ability to change his direction the faster he moves. This would also help justify his boost mode allowing him to water run, as while his potential is expanded by being able to do so, it would also come with it's own share of risk and wouldn't entirely replace simply spindashing to skip across the water.

I still feel as though he should be able to breath underwater and in a vacuum for longer than other characters. Still not necessarily infinite, but at least longer on account of being more durable than his fleshy counterpart.

Perhaps applying some kind of time limit to how long he can hover in the air would help it to feel more balanced? If he absolutely must be given thok as well, I would rather it didn't outright replace the hover. Perhaps give Metal the ability to hover in the air by holding spin, similar to Super Sonic, though with the difference that he doesn't drop like a rock if he goes too slow and can only (At least until he also goes Super) hover for a few seconds per jump. This would also mean that shield abilities would replace the hover, but after having so long to think about it I feel as though this is a fair tradeoff. The player would be tasked with deciding whether they want the shield abilities, or the additional mobility of the hover.
 
Thok and Boost Mode on the same character seems like one of those "mayonaise plus pickles" things, where it sounds weird, but I shouldn't knock it until I try it.

There was an Advance Sonic mod (no idea what happened with it, but it's not in Releases anymore) that did something close to this. AS had a version of Boost Mode that was more like the Sonic Advance 2 Boost (aka it was a bit more lenient than SRB2's) and had the Jump Thok. It also had a bunch of other moves, but when playing using just the boost and jump thok, they actually worked together really well. Use the Thok for tight turns, but spamming it for speed is not nearly as effective as sticking to the floor and letting the Boost increase your speed more and more.

Why not give Sonic a moveset oriented around the dash mode Metal Sonic has and let Metal Sonic just have the basic thok?

'cuz the idea is to make Sonic easier for beginners to pick up and play, and Dash Mode is difficult and unwieldy.
 
Honestly, the Thok doesn't fit Metal Sonic. It fits Sonic the best. Metal Sonic should have a moveset that actually fits him. If they want to keep the Thok, it should just stay as a hidden ability intended for custom characters, just like the Jump Thok and etc.
I am fine with Metal Sonic's current moveset, but I don't mind a new moveset for Metal Sonic too, just make it actually fit him and fun.
 
Honestly, the Thok doesn't fit Metal Sonic. It fits Sonic the best. Metal Sonic should have a moveset that actually fits him. If they want to keep the Thok, it should just stay as a hidden ability intended for custom characters, just like the Jump Thok and etc.
I am fine with Metal Sonic's current moveset, but I don't mind a new moveset for Metal Sonic too, just make it actually fit him and fun.
Why exactly wouldn't the thok fit Metal Sonic? Though I would definitely prefer having a fresh new moveset on Metal than just Sonic's existing moveset, I can easily imagine Metal jumping, then using his jet booster to get a forward burst of speed. It arguably makes more sense for Metal than Sonic, at least on a conceptual level, much like how Tails flies by turning his tails into a propeller, or how Fang bounces by curling up his tail into a spring shape.
 
My mental image of Metal Sonic with the thok is that he dashes forward like the second phase of his boss fight, then curls into a ball when the initial animation ends.
 
I've come to realize that my biggest issue with playable Metal Sonic is that he does not have any significant disadvantages, unlike all the other playable characters. Having an advantage and disadvantage is vital to making an engaging playable character, and most of SRB2's characters follow that pattern well: Sonic is the worst at getting through hazards, Tails' flight wears off after a while, Knuckles can't jump as high as the others, and Amy and Fang can't spin. The character select screen says that Metal has the same difficulty getting around hazards as Sonic, but even if that was true, he wouldn't be all that interesting to play as because it means he has the same advantages and disadvantages as Sonic.

If anything, Metal should have more difficulty getting around hazards than Sonic. Perhaps he could have an ability that gives bigger speed boosts than Sonic's, but severely punishes you for miscalculations. The thok goes where the camera is facing and can be braked somewhat if you fear you overshot it, so maybe Metal's double-jump ability should be something that you cannot brake and/or is more difficult to aim.
 
I've come to realize that my biggest issue with playable Metal Sonic is that he does not have any significant disadvantages, unlike all the other playable characters... Tails' flight wears off after a while

"Can't literally fly forever" isn't a real disadvantage imo.
 
In fairness, Tails isn't a good metric to judge other characters by either lol
 

  • How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
  • I mean, he's neat. The lack of alternate paths is unfortunate, but then there isn't much you can really do. Perhaps he as a character should be more focused on being more challenging but rewarding. Certainly would not want the devs to have to remake all the levels again.
    [*]Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
  • I mean, to an extent?
    [*]How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
  • I mean, balance how? I'm not an expert on all this.
    [*]The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
  • If you do actually end up giving him the Thok, please keep the Dash Mode, because the two actually go together pretty freaking well. And looking at the thread, the people split on Metal's abilities usually like the Dash Mode but lament the difficulty to use it and seem to be more attached to it than Hover. Of course, this wouldn't give him alternate paths, but it would make him a more challenging character that is also a speed demon(which is basically the main appeal of the Thok anyway), and I don't think the levels really need to be remade again just to accomidate for Metal.
 
I really don't think it's understood just how important Hover is to Metal's Boost play style. Part of what makes it possible to keep boost in stages like Arid Canyon and Red Volcano Zone is that hover exists at all. While thok does work in a sense, it doesn't have nearly the same power in keeping it consistent. This isn't to say thok doesn't help at all, but it doesn't compliment the play style nearly as much.

I really think what would make hover better overall is make it a reward for being in boost mode. Currently, when Metal is barely moving, he just had a slow fall. But the moment he starts going with any kind of speed, it's a straight hover. I think this slow fall should be constant unless Metal is in boost mode, which makes the powerful hover a reward for going fast and not an easy way to cheese platforming. It might be good to also not allow spin dash to charge the boost so that you can't just hover at a whim. This also greatly punishes any risky plays of hovering over gaps if you fail to maintain boost.
 
  • How much do you enjoy Metal Sonic's gameplay personally?
  • Would you say that Metal Sonic rewards skillful play?
  • How do you think Metal Sonic contributes to or detracts from overall game balance?
  • The development team has been considering whether or not to change Metal Sonic's ability set entirely. If this were to happen, would you miss the current playstyle?
i think someone should make modern metal sonic mod
 

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