About the female characters in the Sonic series

You're taking all this way too personally, and have been from the start. The reason your arguments aren't being treated with the respect you think they deserve? They're bad arguments. If you want more people to agree with you, you need to make better ones. Be more convincing. If you can't do that, just consider that those arguments may simply...be wrong?

Nobody told you to tie your sense of worth to your opinions on video game feminism, and similarly, nobody said that every single opinion needs to be treated as equally valid and worthy of consideration. The forum would actually be a cesspool if they did, since that'd mean every bad-faith reality denial had to be entertained.

And, knowing this, if "bad-faith reality denial" is how your own posts look, it's up to you to convince people, you don't get to play the victim and say you're being personally attacked just for having bad takes.

Shaddy the guy said:

You're taking all this way too personally, and have been from the start. The reason your arguments aren't being treated with the respect you think they deserve? They're bad arguments. If you want more people to agree with you, you need to make better ones. Be more convincing. If you can't do that, just consider that those arguments may simply...be wrong?

Nobody told you to tie your sense of worth to your opinions on video game feminism, and similarly, nobody said that every single opinion needs to be treated as equally valid and worthy of consideration. The forum would actually be a cesspool if they did, since that'd mean every bad-faith reality denial had to be entertained.

And, knowing this, if "bad-faith reality denial" is how your own posts look, it's up to you to convince people, you don't get to play the victim and say you're being personally attacked just for having bad takes.

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And how exactly is it that my takes are "bad"? Why is it you who gets to decide what is and isn't a bad take? Why does that give you the right to attach labels to me that aren't true, such as affiliating me with a particular political party in your replies against me? I don't want to "play" victim here, I hate it, but how else can I be described given my treatment here just because of my opinions not being liked?

I give my viewpoint, I get labels attached to me. I try to give evidence to support my viewpoint, it gets waved off. I talk about all that, and I get told that my take is just bad. Then, you act as though I'm "playing" the victim. I'm being told effectively straight to my face that my viewpoint isn't welcome, and that nothing I ever say is ever going to make it welcome, and then being told when I question that that I'm "playing victim" or "denying reality". This whole time I have been trying to avoid the topic going in this direction, and every attempt just results in it getting pulled further in.

My whole point this whole time has been that this supposed "reality" probably isn't actually as real as you think it is, but the insistence to the contrary is that it must be, and cannot be questioned. There's no room for contrary opinions here. It's agree or be rejected.

time gear said:

And how exactly is it that my takes are "bad"? Why is it you who gets to decide what is and isn't a bad take?

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People have been illustrating exactly what's wrong with the things you're saying across the whole thread. You don't have to accept it, but denying that it's there is pretty disingenuous of you.

time gear said:

Why does that give you the right to attach labels to me that aren't true, such as affiliating me with a particular political party in your replies against me?

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I have not affiliated you with any political party, I posted a twitter joke. Now, that joke happened to associate your opinion with a political ideology, but spending an entire thread denying and dismissing feminist critique of media is not a progressive argument (nor is cowering in fear over a perception of "cancel culture"), so I'd say it's accurate. It says nothing about you.

time gear said:

I "don't" want to play victim here, I hate it, but how else can I be described given my treatment here just because of my opinions not being liked?

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Your "treatment" is completely normal discourse. You are a person who we disagree with, and we're telling you why. Again, nobody is making you take it personally.

time gear said:

I give my viewpoint, I get labels attached to me. I try to give evidence to support my viewpoint, it gets waved off.

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So we don't get to decide what opinion is worth listening to, but you get to decide what response is legitimate?

Why is it other people's job to believe you and not YOUR job to convince us? You aren't exactly open to reversing your opinion, so why demand it of everyone else?

time gear said:

I talk about all that, and I get told that my take is just bad. Then, you act as though I'm "playing" the victim.

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People have made it explicit to you exactly how to disagree with the topic civilly. You aren't doing it.

time gear said:

I'm being told effectively straight to my face that my viewpoint isn't welcome, and that nothing I ever say is ever going to make it welcome, and then being told when I question that that I'm "playing victim" or "denying reality".

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And? I asked before, and you didn't answer. Is every opinion in existence equally valid? If so, then you should respect the opinion that not every opinion is valid.

time gear said:

This whole time I have been trying to avoid the topic going in this direction, and every attempt just results in it getting pulled further in.

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You opened with the dismissal of discussions like this as inherently hostile to your person, and when someone said "no they're not", you used that as evidence of that opinion. There's nothing anyone could have done to avoid that while still disagreeing with you. I'm having trouble believing even the nicest person on the planet could tell you you're wrong without you taking offense.

time gear said:

My whole point this whole time has been that this supposed "reality" probably isn't actually as real as you think it is, but the insistence to the contrary is that it must be, and cannot be questioned. There's no room for contrary opinions here. It's agree or be rejected.

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It actually can be questioned. I literally disagreed with several things in the main post myself. You just want it to be 100% on your side, or else the entire world is out to get you.

These are not statements on who you are, but the behavior you are displaying. If you don't want those statements to be made, stop acting this way. It's easy.

To be honest, im disappointed.

@time gear The more I'm looking at your comments the more I'm thinking that you are actually one of those "gamers" with a problematic viewpoint.

It's clear that you are not aware of the implications of everything that's happening in the gaming industry and the gamer community as a whole.

My simple question shouldn't have made you feel threatened and the fact that you're using "cancel culture" as your personal scarecrow tells a lot about you.

I should advice you to stop contributing to this thread if you don't have anything valuable to tell because it's clear that you're being overly defensive over a subject as trivial as wanting better written female characters in a medium.

I kinda regret making this thread because I knew that some people would be acting like that...

I'm also deeply sorry that I may ask to lock this thread because of that.

This is going to be my final post in this topic, for all of our sakes. This time, I'm not coming back even if the behavior towards me continues.

Shaddy the guy said:

So we don't get to decide what opinion is worth listening to, but you get to decide what response is legitimate?

Why is it other people's job to believe you and not YOUR job to convince us? You aren't exactly open to reversing your opinion, so why demand it of everyone else?

People have made it explicit to you exactly how to disagree with the topic civilly. You aren't doing it.

And? I asked before, and you didn't answer. Is every opinion in existence equally valid? If so, then you should respect the opinion that not every opinion is valid.

You opened with the dismissal of discussions like this as inherently hostile to your person, and when someone said "no they're not", you used that as evidence of that opinion. There's nothing anyone could have done to avoid that while still disagreeing with you. I'm having trouble believing even the nicest person on the planet could tell you you're wrong without you taking offense.

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What I believe is that if a narrative about something is going to be discussed, it shouldn't be made into an exclusive club where only those who agree with that narrative are allowed, and all else waved off. I do not take offense to being told that I'm wrong, I take offense to being told that not only am I wrong, but also my opinion doesn't matter because you don't like it. I take offense to the entire idea that you get to decide an objective truth and anyone who disagrees or questions it is told their viewpoint isn't valid.

I've spent the majority of this thread trying to defend my views against takes on it that were hostile to begin with, and now the latest label being attributed to me is that I'm the one on the attack. I believe that when someone has something to say, it is worth taking into consideration. Not once have I ever felt in this thread as if my views were even slightly considered. I tried to convince you lot of the value of my viewpoint, and every single time it was never enough, always shot down. I tried to treat the main narrative of the thread with the respect of debate, and I was met with not being welcome for not agreeing with it. Someone who anyone who disagrees with is immediately in the right for doing so.

If there's one clear message I'm getting from this thread, it's that you do not value me, you do not value my opinion, and you do not value my defense of either. I stated my opinion, I was immediately portrayed as ridiculous for making it. I attempted a defense, and was portrayed as unreasonable for defending it. I've been nothing but slammed in this thread, and now I'm the one being told that i'm the one toxic and problematic.

Nothing I ever could say would ever convince you that my opinion matters, and everything I say just inspires further talk about me being a bad person for saying it. I'm not welcome here. So congratulations. You win. I'm leaving.

Edit: I don't know if anyone is ever going to read this, but I've had some time to calm down about the situation, so I want to mention this here briefly. I want to apologize. I didn't feel as though I was being treated fairly. At all. This was causing me to become very emotional, and this was being reflected in my words. It was never my intention to lash out, and I sincerely apologize if anyone was hurt as a result.

time gear said:

This is going to be my final post in this topic, for all of our sakes. This time, I'm not coming back even if the behavior towards me continues.

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"Behavior towards you" oh my god can you please grow up? We didn't like your opinion, why does it need to be bigger than that? I once made a fool of myself defending fucking Sonic Boom Wii U on here, but I'm never going to claim there's a super-secret-SJW-communazi conspiracy cabal out to get any of us god-fearing all-American Rise of Lyric lovers. Literally nobody has attacked your character, and your constant, constant false allegations that we have is doing worse things for anyone's perception of you than a personal attack could.

time gear said:

What I believe is that if a narrative about something is going to be discussed, it shouldn't be made into an exclusive club where only those who agree with that narrative are allowed, and all else waved off.

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But that's not what's happening here. If you hadn't been ignoring us, you may have noticed that I and a couple others disagreed with some of the things in the opening post. I've said this like three times now.

time gear said:

I do not take offense to being told that I'm wrong, I take offense to being told that not only am I wrong, but also my opinion doesn't matter because you don't like it. I take offense to the entire idea that you get to decide an objective truth and anyone who disagrees or questions it is told their viewpoint isn't valid.

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But again, this is not strictly about your beliefs, but your dismissive behavior and your stalwart refusal to consider anything but your own perspective. You're demanding that your point of view be considered while taking the mere existence of others as an attack on your identity.

time gear said:

I've spent the majority of this thread trying to defend my views against takes on it that were hostile to begin with, and now the latest label being attributed to me is that I'm the one on the attack.

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You literally came out on the offensive from the beginning, claiming everyone else would 'cancel' you for having the wrong opinion. That was your intent at the very start, so of course it was going to happen, it's what you wanted to happen.

time gear said:

Not once have I ever felt in this thread as if my views were even slightly considered.

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Oh, poor @time gear. How awful that he doesn't receive the courtesy he refused to offer to anyone else.

time gear said:

I tried to convince you lot of the value of my viewpoint, and every single time it was never enough, always shot down.

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And like I said, it is a personal failing on your part if you can't make a good argument for that point. Everyone else is not out to get you just because you're not being validated 24/7.

time gear said:

I tried to treat the main narrative of the thread with the respect of debate, and I was met with not being welcome for not agreeing with it. Someone who anyone who disagrees with is immediately in the right for doing so.

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You're not treating the thread with respect, because you keep calling it "the narrative", something you naturally consider in opposition to "the truth". Do you think I've never seen this rhetoric before?

time gear said:

If there's one clear message I'm getting from this thread, it's that you do not value me, you do not value my opinion, and you do not value my defense of either. I stated my opinion, I was immediately portrayed as ridiculous for making it. I attempted a defense, and was portrayed as unreasonable for defending it. I've been nothing but slammed in this thread, and now I'm the one being told that i'm the one toxic and problematic.

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This is an internet forum about Sonic the hedgehog and you're whining about "not being valued" just because we didn't agree with you. This is pathetic.

You should understand by this point that if you ever bothered to read the other responses, you're pretty much the only guy who acted like a clown, but not the only one who had a take different from the OP. It's not "anyone who disagrees", it's the specific way you are behaving.

Let me ask one final time: is literally every opinion in existence worth defending? If so, why do you get to decide that your opinion is worthy of respect, but the opinion that your opinion is not worthy of respect isn't? This philosophy mandates hypocrisy.

time gear said:

Nothing I ever could say would ever convince you that my opinion matters, and everything I say just inspires further talk about me being a bad person for saying it. I'm not welcome here. So congratulations. You win. I'm leaving.

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Out of this entire thread, the only one to call you a bad person here is you. But hey, that's your opinion, why would I argue?

In short, this is what everyone else here has just bore witness to:

Icarus said:

@time gear The more I'm looking at your comments the more I'm thinking that you are actually one of those "gamers" with a problematic viewpoint.
[...]

I should advice you to stop contributing to this thread if you don't have anything valuable to tell because it's clear that you're being overly defensive over a subject as trivial as wanting better written female characters in a medium.

I kinda regret making this thread because I knew that some people would be acting like that...

I'm also deeply sorry that I may ask to lock this thread because of that.

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Sweetheart, please understand that even if it's in your best interest to speak your mind and help out, advice and action like this is best left to moderation. You should stop trying to contribute to the thread flow if you have nothing valuable to say, specially if you're gonna say something that can escalate conflict. Don't think we forgot how you behaved in the Mystic thread.

time gear said:

What I believe is that if a narrative about something is going to be discussed, it shouldn't be made into an exclusive club where only those who agree with that narrative are allowed, and all else waved off. I do not take offense to being told that I'm wrong, I take offense to being told that not only am I wrong, but also my opinion doesn't matter because you don't like it. I take offense to the entire idea that you get to decide an objective truth and anyone who disagrees or questions it is told their viewpoint isn't valid.

I've spent the majority of this thread trying to defend my views against takes on it that were hostile to begin with, and now the latest label being attributed to me is that I'm the one on the attack. I believe that when someone has something to say, it is worth taking into consideration. Not once have I ever felt in this thread as if my views were even slightly considered. I tried to convince you lot of the value of my viewpoint, and every single time it was never enough, always shot down. I tried to treat the main narrative of the thread with the respect of debate, and I was met with not being welcome for not agreeing with it. Someone who anyone who disagrees with is immediately in the right for doing so.

If there's one clear message I'm getting from this thread, it's that you do not value me, you do not value my opinion, and you do not value my defense of either. I stated my opinion, I was immediately portrayed as ridiculous for making it. I attempted a defense, and was portrayed as unreasonable for defending it. I've been nothing but slammed in this thread, and now I'm the one being told that i'm the one toxic and problematic.

Nothing I ever could say would ever convince you that my opinion matters, and everything I say just inspires further talk about me being a bad person for saying it. I'm not welcome here. So congratulations. You win. I'm leaving.

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Funny how you said you're a fan of freedom of speech, but somehow freedom from speech seems alien to you. Sure, you may say everything you want to say, but why are you whining when people don't feel like listening? You're not entitled to that.

Opinions don't have inherent value in a vacuum - they must be informed to be worth listening to. Expertise counts. Nonetheless, you spent several posts trying to convince a woman that she's wrong about her perception of how women are written in a videogame, using denial, questionable media interpretation and tokenizing your sister as counterarguments. These kinds of discussions happen in academic level. Would you throw the same tantrum if academia didn't treat this pitiful repertoire of yours as competition?

Now, none of this ascribes any value to you as a person, as we've been emphasizing constantly: you just decided to walk into the thread with a target on your forehead you put there yourself and then have a meltdown when no one bothers shooting, swearing we're treating you like a pariah just because you're not sufficiently informed. We don't have time to entertain this kind of persecution complex, so keep it in mind the next time you do act like that in some other thread, you will be made judgements of value on you as a person.

Shaddy the guy said:

Why is it other people's job to believe you and not YOUR job to convince us? You aren't exactly open to reversing your opinion, so why demand it of everyone else?

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I'm walking into a warfield here, but I'd like to just say one final thing to this whole thing. You just described the Burden of Proof logical fallacy.
Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy

When someone makes a claim, it's their job to prove their own claim, and not the job of anyone else to disprove it.

Tatsuru said:

Sweetheart, please understand that even if it's in your best interest to speak your mind and help out, advice and action like this is best left to moderation. You should stop trying to contribute to the thread flow if you have nothing valuable to say, specially if you're gonna say something that can escalate conflict. Don't think we forgot how you behaved in the Mystic thread.

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Understood, then I'll simply report this person and politely ask to lock this thread because we cannot have a proper civilized talk because of one...

I agree that the female characters in the sonic games are boring, but it is obvious that the community of fans has already created many female characters and stories for them. but unfortunately they cannot have the monetary incentive to develop them better and distribute them in the community, because there is a cancer called copyright (people who think they can own ideas) and suddenly a company process "that owns" the characters or series.

if the copyright did not exist you would see countless games with several cool female characters for the Sonic games series as in the game "freedoom planet" and probably the discussion would be "why there are too many female characters"?

It's kind of wild to imagine a public domain Sonic. I think that would solve some problems and create others.

For one thing, they could finally remove "This game should not be sold!" from the quit game screen in SRB2. I'd give the devs money for it.

vinicius said:

I agree that the female characters in the sonic games are boring, but it is obvious that the community of fans has already created many female characters and stories for them. but unfortunately they cannot have the monetary incentive to develop them better and distribute them in the community, because there is a cancer called copyright (people who think they can own ideas) and suddenly a company process "that owns" the characters or series.

if the copyright did not exist you would see countless games with several cool female characters for the Sonic games series as in the game "freedoom planet" and probably the discussion would be "why there are too many female characters"?

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I agree so much, in a perfect world copyright and patents would simply no longer exist (because let's be honest, those are just made for greedy multinationals who can pressure independent creators who happens to have a slightly similar idea or just trolls who can copyright basic and vague ones, see the creator of a very old Massively Multiplayer Game from the 90's that was called Worlds dot com who basically patented the idea of a multiplayer videogame who is suing every new MMOs because of it.)

And yeah, Freedom Planet was basically the best Sonic game to come in decade (until Sonic Mania came out).

Shaddy the guy said:

It's kind of wild to imagine a public domain Sonic. I think that would solve some problems and create others.

For one thing, they could finally remove "This game should not be sold!" from the quit game screen in SRB2. I'd give the devs money for it.

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What problem would it create?

Imagine if Nintendo could not be able to C&D every indie devs on the web.

Well, this was my derailling of the week on this thread.

PS: Wave the Swallow was probably the wise one in Team Babylon (unlike Jet being immature and Hawk being the "dumb one" of the group) but sadly she's basically not canon because Riders isn't canon.

I guess it's just that I still long for Sonic to be a more consistent and unified continuity across its various mediums, so that being open to monetization by literally everyone else on the planet kind of does the opposite. Now all of a sudden I'm not just wishing that a game series, six cartoons, and five comic book continuities were one, but a literally infinite expanding idea that would be impossible to centralize. Because if Sonic were to go public domain, I wouldn't just stick with one creator or studio's Sonic, I'd take a look at ALL of them, and probably find things to like about each one, the same way I do with the thirteen continuities I can think of for the series right now. The post-Genesis comics really spoiled me, they gave me a look into a Sonic universe where every old random thing could be mashed together and made coherent with SEGA's tone for the series, and then they were shot dead in 2017.

And yes, that is selfish, it's my lizard-brain defending private industry because a series that managed to be good in spite of that hypnotized me into caring about it. I realize that, but still.

Icarus said:

There's something that bugged me off a bit: why most female characters in the series got either but in backseat or completely forgotten?

When you look at Amy (or Rosy if you prefer) she basically started off as a damsel in distress (in Sonic CD) then she became more or a "stalker girlfriend" toward Sonic in the modern era (especially since Heroes), sure I can accept it as a small running gag at the end of the game like in Adventure but it became creepy after several games and media. At least her Boom appearance was written better.

For other characters like Blaze they are being completely ignored despite what she has done in the past (at least she wasn't the worst part of Sonic 2006 and she got an interesting story in the Rush dualogy).

Is there a reason why Sega has decided not to include Amy in Mania and Wave (and the other two babylon rogues) in Team Sonic Racing?

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i hate amy. im glad she's not in sonic mania

Sonic_the_hedgehog said:

i hate amy. im glad she's not in sonic mania

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Why?

Velvet said:

Why?

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in another thread he said he hated Amy because she was "annoying" and gave no other reasons.

Shaddy the guy said:

It's kind of wild to imagine a public domain Sonic. I think that would solve some problems and create others.

For one thing, they could finally remove "This game should not be sold!" from the quit game screen in SRB2. I'd give the devs money for it.

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I would kill for it to go public domain if only because it removes the antagonisms toward fan creators using intellectual properties. That goes for all videogame franchises.

there is no public domain (it does not matter if it is written in the constitution, we are only obliged to follow it because of the threat), since if it belongs to everyone it does not belong to anyone, ideas cannot have owners and that is obvious, besides being INFINITE it is impossible demarcate "ownership / territory" on an idea.

writing on a piece of paper that you own an idea doesn’t make you the owner of it in any way.

but it is normal to be afraid to support the end of copyright, after all we still have a child inside us shouting "I thought first so you can't do it like me ç-ç"

vinicius said:

there is no public domain (it does not matter if it is written in the constitution, we are only obliged to follow it because of the threat), since if it belongs to everyone it does not belong to anyone, ideas cannot have owners and that is obvious, besides being INFINITE it is impossible demarcate "ownership / territory" on an idea.

writing on a piece of paper that you own an idea doesn’t make you the owner of it in any way.

but it is normal to be afraid to support the end of copyright, after all we still have a child inside us shouting "I thought first so you can't do it like me ç-ç"

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Public Domain... means that no one person owns the property anymore, anyone can do anything with it.

I'm personally for copyright existing, but for a lesser time than in the US currently. Author's death + 70 years is absurd, and only exists because Disney is afraid of Steamboat Willie going Public Domain. Maybe author's death at most.