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Old 03-31-2014   #1
Sonoob
Default What ? Is Egg Rock Zone too hard for you ? Well...

Yes Sir, yes, yes it is.

Allow me to introduce myself : I'm Sonoob (because I suck at choosing usernames, and because it fits me so well). I love your game, thanks you for making it !

I am a somewhat moderate (not casual) player of SRB2 since... well it doesn't matter much. My most time playing SRB2 was in 2.0 but I remember playing since at least 2006...

I am posting here shamefully : I suck at SRB2... like very hard.
I just lost to the Metal Sonic race at ERZ Act 3... Yes I did. Losing 49 times in one go without ever getting to the actual boss fight vs Metal Sonic himself.
Huh, before even that I was strugling against ERZ Act 2 for days now, I just could'nt beat it.
Granted the game was made easier in many places since 2.0, but 2.1... Well it's too much.

I know what you guys have been saying for years... (is it years already since 2.0 ? I am not even sure) : Egg Rock Zone is the ultimate stage of SRB2. Like the Bomb, the Graal, the must, THE best zone.
For the longest time I would have just suck it up and kept going. But after struggling for hours against yoku blocks while being knocked back by an unfair yellow jerk, and after losing 40 grinded lives against Metal Sonic, already knowing that there was a boss fight at the end of it and the a true final boss fight in ACT 4, I just can't take it anymore. Oh yes 40 + 3 continues = 49 lives if I am not mistaken.

7 emeralds with Sonic. I never accomplished this feat ever before. Like, never ever. With Tails I did in 2.0.6. With Sonic I was just strucked at the 7th, playing endlessly the 7th special stage, until I went "pff, I'll go take a completed save on the Internet, then."
But not even once did I whined about it. I was just not good enough and that was fine, I knew it already.

Now however, I did complete the 7 special stages with Sonic in 2.1 (very enjoyable, by the way) ... And I am tired...



What exactly is my problem ? Well you see... SRB2 is not what we could call a "mainstream game". Every day I see people knowing SRB2, but also people not knowing a damn about it.
SRB2 is spectacular ! Like insanely good ! I like it so much because it reminds me of Sonic 3 and Knuckles... So awesome in so many ways.
But it's just moderately known.

This game is gone on a... How could I call it... hmm... Well.
This game is like scrap metal turned into a sword made sharper and sharper as the time goes on. But so are the developpers, and good players in general.
But what the good players have in common is that they are (mostly) here in the community... In a hard core (pun intended).

Now what if SRB2 was mainstream ? I think you can answer this by yourself.

I am not whiny. (really, I actually feel bad for complaining here)
I try very hard.
Too hard maybe.
But this game got insane with time, insane like the sharpest blade could only be manipulated by a master.
Sharp game is effectively a very nice thing. But not for everyone.
I actually very much like how SRB2 is so skill based. This is a beautiful thing and players can feel themselves getting stronger with time... Proof that this game is well made. But this game, near the end is becoming more and more cattering to only the most hardcore of players.

My guess is : it is because it was made by hardcores, for hardcores... I guess that's fine. But I am not in the hardcore camp myself.
You guys just became so focused on perfecting the game even further, sharpening it more and more to please your desire of fun challenges, you created, knowingly or not, a incredible gap between you and the rest of the player world. I am not even sure your are actually able to see it anymore. This ERZ is just like you dreamed it to be : like yourselves.

Honestly, at this point I just want to beat the game. Sonic, 10 lives, 7 emeralds collected, Egg Rock Zone. I want to see my credits. I want to have my emblems for it, and I want my damn level select so I can play with my Super Sonic even more.

Why is Egg Rock Zone a regular level ? You guys actually believe this Zone is a normal one ? I played Azure Temple level pack on 2.0 way back months ago. And it was easier.

Egg Rock Zone is a Hyper level, or at least Super level.
I don't want it changed (that's up to you, not me). I don't want it removed.
I want to complete the game without having to play a damn Hyper level. Make it optional, make it easier, make it something !

No.. Nope. I don't think my message alone will convince you, if you are a good development team. I don't actually know what should be done or not to a level so well made and implemented in your game.
I would not listen to myself in your position if I suggested such a change as "optionnal ERZ" because it would fuck everything up, and I agree perfectly with you.

I am not here to suggest a solution I have not. I only want you to be conscious of the very existence of this problem.

I sucked it up when I could not save after every stage when getting some hard chaos emeralds (like 5 or 6) in the past (2.0 and 2.1), so I just had to beat a damn boss everytime in order to save.
I sucked up not having a good time in Arid Canyon Zone, even if it was improved by placing platforms where I could just thok when falling froms those rails.
I sucked up that pesky Volcano, eating my rings and that lava moving wave that killed me so many times. (I no longer fear it though)
I sucked it up having to restart an entire zone when that Stupid Robotnik/Eggman beat me very hard on the Act 3 of Castle Eggman. I beated him back the day after, when I got how to fight him.


I can take it guys, I know the game is good. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think so. But please, even if that might sound offending to Sonic the Hedgehog fans : please just slow down.

Think of us, players that are not that good. 7 emeralds and grinding 40 lives in a disco room is not skills. But a good game should ony be this hard in the unlockable extras. New players aren't you. And I am not even a new player.

Think about it please, that's all I ask. Sonic 1, 2, 3&K. Any Mario platformer...
Good games like these knew how to be hard and manageable to even new players.

I love Sonic 1, 2 and 3&K, so do you. Do it for the invisible mainstream playbase.


PS : I wanted to add that somewhere, but I forgot so here we go :

Death pits. DEATH PITS EVERYWHERE !

I guess you understand it too.

PS2 : I read my message again... Not deep enough. I still hope someone understand.

Last edited by Sonoob; 03-31-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014   #2
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I'm not even a great player, and ERZ3 and ERCZ took me less than 5 tries combined.
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Old 03-31-2014   #3
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ERZ's difficulty is a shock right now because there are supposed to be three acts and two bosses between it and Red Volcano. Once there's a Dark City or something in the mix, it'll be a much more natural level progression.

I do think the snailer in the disappearing block section is a bit much, though, personally. (And act 3 really does need a bit of tweaking.)
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Old 03-31-2014   #4
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...let's see here... how do I respond to this...?

I don't see how SRB2 is becoming hardcore... and I really don't see why ERZ is that hard. Then again, I do play as Tails, so...

If you really can't take the game as Sonic, why didn't you start as Tails? I'm pretty sure it would've made the game a bit easier, and ERZ isn't that hard if you know what the heck you're doing. But I can understand if you don't want to do all those special stages over and over.

...okay, I'll be honest. I haven't beaten the game yet. I'm not sure if I have a right to be saying all of this, but... well... yeah. I'm on DSZ as Tails though.

There's not really much I can say. ...god I really don't know how to word this.
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Old 03-31-2014   #5
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Originally Posted by FieryExplosion View Post
...let's see here... how do I respond to this...?

I don't see how SRB2 is becoming hardcore... and I really don't see why ERZ is that hard. Then again, I do play as Tails, so...

If you really can't take the game as Sonic, why didn't you start as Tails? I'm pretty sure it would've made the game a bit easier, and ERZ isn't that hard if you know what the heck you're doing. But I can understand if you don't want to do all those special stages over and over.

...okay, I'll be honest. I haven't beaten the game yet. I'm not sure if I have a right to be saying all of this, but... well... yeah. I'm on DSZ as Tails though.

There's not really much I can say. ...god I really don't know how to word this.
I like playing as Tails, but this time I was doing a playthrough as Sonic.
I get you, but this is not about me. I can get better. But the game is not well balanced, because of it targeted playerbase.

If SRB2 was professional, ERZ would be like Japan Super Mario Bros 2 : mastering it it is possible, yeah. Playing as Mario is easier and wiser, sure. But still. Actually, the deaths pits are just an offense in general.

I don't want to be forced to play Tails to finish the game. Even though I like Tails.

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Originally Posted by Zipper View Post
I'm not even a great player, and ERZ3 and ERCZ took me less than 5 tries combined.
I believe you. Fine for you. Maybe, just maybe, you are still great enough at this zone because of more practice on it ?
I, myself could never beat it.
And so won't a new player without sweating his blood.

Last edited by Sonoob; 03-31-2014 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonoob View Post
I like playing as Tails, but this time I was doing a playthrough as Sonic.
I get you, but this is not about me. I can get better. But the game is not well balanced, because of it targeted playerbase.

If SRB2 was professional, ERZ would be like Japan Super Mario Bros 2 : mastering it it is possible, yeah. Playing as Mario is easier and wiser, sure. But still. Actually, the deaths pits are just an offense in general.

I don't want to be forced to play Tails to finish the game. Even though I like Tails.
If that's how you feel, then I won't question it. I know some people think ERZ is really frikkin' tough, but with a little practice, I think you can make it out, because I'm pretty sure you can play stages you've visited in SP in Record Attack.
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Old 03-31-2014   #7
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The problem with Eggrock is simply that a lot of the gimmicks rely on things that weren't introduced or weren't used too much before, along with the fact that most of the mistakes punish you with death. In other words, the first few playthroughs boil down to pure trial and error.
Especially Metal Robotnik. Good riddance. The new bosses are much better, or at least more straightforward.
Also, this all used to be much more "fun" in the early 2.0, where game overs gave you 1 life.
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Old 03-31-2014   #8
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If that's how you feel, then I won't question it. I know some people think ERZ is really frikkin' tough, but with a little practice, I think you can make it out, because I'm pretty sure you can play stages you've visited in SP in Record Attack.
I can defeat Azure Temple. I guess one day I can defeat Egg Rock too. It is still a tough Hyper level of doom, disguised as a "regular" final zone.
It is excellent in so many ways really. Except it looks more like a Brutal bonus level.

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The problem with Eggrock is simply that a lot of the gimmicks rely on things that weren't introduced or weren't used too much before, along with the fact that most of the mistakes punish you with death. In other words, the first few playthroughs boil down to pure trial and error.
Especially Metal Robotnik. Good riddance. The new bosses are much better, or at least more straightforward.
Also, this all used to be much more "fun" in the early 2.0, where game overs gave you 1 life.
Yes it's true, especially the punishing part. Death pits every corner conceivable. I am not even kidding. You fall in them even when you know about them.
Also it is way too long.

Last edited by Sonoob; 03-31-2014 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014   #9
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Back in my SRB2 days, I couldn't complete DSZ1 and onwards.
I played as Tails a lot because I was new, but I switched to Sonic because he was so... perfect? And playing always as Tails... that wouldn't help.
I was always joining Coop servers so I could try a stage without having to worry about game overs -because I always had 99 lifes-.
I keep practicing... and I managed to complete the stage (losing LOTS of lifes ). I'm not a master in this game, and I keep going to the same paths in both acts (left path in act 1, and right path at act 2) cause the other ones are hell in my opinion. Although, Metal Sonic race was hard and those snail robots are very annoying.
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Old 03-31-2014   #10
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Back in my SRB2 days, I couldn't complete DSZ1 and onwards.
I played as Tails a lot because I was new, but I switched to Sonic because he was so... perfect? And playing always as Tails... that wouldn't help.
I was always joining Coop servers so I could try a stage without having to worry about game overs -because I always had 99 lifes-.
I keep practicing... and I managed to complete the stage (losing LOTS of lifes ). I'm not a master in this game, and I keep going to the same paths in both acts (left path in act 1, and right path at act 2) cause the other ones are hell in my opinion. Although, Metal Sonic race was hard and those snail robots are very annoying.
I think we are getting each other. ^_^
But I am not on multiplayer myself.
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Old 03-31-2014   #11
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To simply being honest, I'm so fu**** tired of ERZ, Those gravity switches, why would there be a reazon to put them there if we are in a spaceship all closed and apart from the gravity of the space? Those crushers..... THOSE F***** CRUSHERS!!!! Crushers in the middle of a death pit? Are we all Chuck Norris to beat this with sonic instead of just flying with tails or climbing with chuckles? I'm in ERZ with both Sonic and Tails (OMFG 30 MINUTES TO PASS OVER THE FIRTS AREA), I only managed to beat the game with knuckles (sure because he's faster than tails and he doesn't drowns with the air while running to a stupid zoom tube while you can just add a corridor with a hole to fall to the elevator to fight metal, and he can glide instead of being SUPER F***** careful of not falling to your RIDICULOUS death in a f***** ceiling.).
We've been giving these posts for the developers since 2.1 was released, 2.1 had 6 patches and none of them had changes from what we posted here. Atleast I hope 2.2 have this posts in consideration and applied.

Please don't post I've been exagerated because this is what I REALLY think of 2.1. I enjoyed the update very much, but just ERZ fucked up the fun time we were having.
I would redesign the whole ERZ if I would know how to make maps.

Last edited by VirtualBlitz546; 03-31-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014   #12
Sonoob
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To simply being honest, I'm so fu**** tired of ERZ, Those gravity switches, why would there be a reazon to put them there if we are in a spaceship all closed and apart from the gravity of the space? Those crushers..... THOSE F***** CRUSHERS!!!! Crushers in the middle of a death pit? Are we all Chuck Norris to beat this with sonic instead of just flying with tails or climbing with chuckles? I'm in ERZ with both Sonic and Tails, I only managed to beat the game with knuckles (sure because he's faster than tails and he doesn't drowns with the air while running to a stupid zoom tube while you can just add a corridor with a hole to fall to the elevator to fight metal, and he can glide instead of being SUPER F***** careful of not falling to your RIDICULOUS death in a f***** ceiling.).
We've been giving these posts for the developers since 2.1 was released, 2.1 had 6 patches and none of them had changes from what we posted here. Atleast I hope 2.2 have this posts in consideration and applied.
Some other people complain about Egg Rock ? I didn't know.
I think Egg Rock is insane, but mostly as a normal level.
If it was an extra, I wouldn't have much to complain about it. Even if it still needs to be fixed in many ways.
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Old 03-31-2014   #13
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Personally, I feel that ERZ2's difficulty is about right but the stage is currently too long. I reckon if a few rooms were cut out, the ideas used in other levels such as Grand Eggship/Dark City or the incomplete acts of Arid Canyon/Red Volcano, the stage would be far more managable for new players.

Don't get me wrong, I love ERZ2 to pieces, it's one of the few levels I would rate 10/10 even with my misgivings and I even put the time into perfecting it.

ERZ3 absolutely destroys a first time player though, personally I would like to see the game save after ERZ2 so if the player dies on Metal Sonic or the final boss they start again at ERZ3, which would help even out the overall difficulty of the zone. But that might just be me.
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Old 03-31-2014   #14
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I think SRB2's difficulty has become... insular... especially with 2.1. For example, a lot of the new snailer placements in ERZ are really unnecessary... snailer was NOT intended to be placed in such a way that he's firing in front of you as you head towards him (I'm looking at you, red ERZ2 megaman block area).

GFZ3's boss is also an example of the insular difficulty change. This boss is horribly hard for being the first. It's refreshing having his additional attacks, but it really is too much. Some of those attacks should be moved to other bosses (instead of firing that laser, I could see the RVZ boss maybe doing it with a flamethrower).

CEZ3's boss is also confusing in the pinch stage. I thought I had to fling myself up from underneath Eggman, not fling myself into the crowd stands where there would be another chain waiting for me. (That stage needs SRB2 Kart-like audience, BTW).
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Old 03-31-2014   #15
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Personally, I feel that ERZ2's difficulty is about right but the stage is currently too long. I reckon if a few rooms were cut out, the ideas used in other levels such as Grand Eggship/Dark City or the incomplete acts of Arid Canyon/Red Volcano, the stage would be far more managable for new players.

Don't get me wrong, I love ERZ2 to pieces, it's one of the few levels I would rate 10/10 even with my misgivings and I even put the time into perfecting it.

ERZ3 absolutely destroys a first time player though, personally I would like to see the game save after ERZ2 so if the player dies on Metal Sonic or the final boss they start again at ERZ3, which would help even out the overall difficulty of the zone. But that might just be me.
Well, I am here hoping to make the creators of the game realize they have a large spectrum of skill in their playerbase.
Everyone has their perception, but there should be boundaries, it's unavoidable.

I am not naive when I say a game like Super Mario World or Super Metroid was balanced by Nintendo because they were able to put themselves in the shoes of BOTH new players and hardcores, during development.
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Old 03-31-2014   #16
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I just love ERZ2 and 3! The only acts that are nearest to be challenges to finish in record attack, even though my Sonic time in ERZ2 is now 3:35.xx...

I still know how do you feel. 4 years ago when I really started playing this I used 69 lives to beat ERZ2. When I did it I feeled wonderful. Then it was actually easy to play again and win the old ERZ3. So, don't give up. When you win ERZ2 as Sonic your first time, You will feel awesome too.

I wish that there would be just an insane extra map with tons of pits, lasers, platforms and whirlwind shield. That would be a good challenge to more advanced players.
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Old 03-31-2014   #17
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Just gonna say, the game DOES save at Egg Rock Core since its not 'Egg Rock' anymore, but yeah, I think ERZ3 could do with something, perhaps a room or two before you trigger the race, simply so players don't get left behind initially not knowing what happened.

And also yeah, cut it out with the snailers...
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Old 03-31-2014   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSNTails View Post
I think SRB2's difficulty has become... insular... especially with 2.1. For example, a lot of the new snailer placements in ERZ are really unnecessary... snailer was NOT intended to be placed in such a way that he's firing in front of you as you head towards him (I'm looking at you, red ERZ2 megaman block area).

GFZ3's boss is also an example of the insular difficulty change. This boss is horribly hard for being the first. It's refreshing having his additional attacks, but it really is too much. Some of those attacks should be moved to other bosses (instead of firing that laser, I could see the RVZ boss maybe doing it with a flamethrower).

CEZ3's boss is also confusing in the pinch stage. I thought I had to fling myself up from underneath Eggman, not fling myself into the crowd stands where there would be another chain waiting for me. (That stage needs SRB2 Kart-like audience, BTW).
Sorry, but I just have to tell my opinion: GFZ3 and CEZ3 are still fair and fun maps with clear challenge.

DSZ3 was the hardest boss for me. Even harder than ERCZ... When the fake eggmans come, I don't see well which one is the real one my resolution. And the biggest challenge in that is that the Eggman of the middle tube has always completely black texture.
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Last edited by Ors; 03-31-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014   #19
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Ors don't worry, I saved you from a double post with my wizardry... but seriously Ors, Don't say what you said in your first post! you know what mystic is like. welcome to Laser Hell Zone!
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Old 03-31-2014   #20
Rex The Kitsune
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I completely agree with everything in this post. I have never been able to beat ERZ ever. After about 50 lives wasted, three ragequits, and that message saying 'Is Egg Rock Zone too hard for you?' when I quit the game, I didn't even try anymore.

The difficulty in these levels is absolutely insane. AZURE TEMPLE is easier than this. And you can't justify that 'oh, the difficulty is perfect, the game is just missing two zones'!

That doesn't give you a get out of jail-free card to make this hellhole of a level even look acceptable.

This same argument can also be applied to the new bosses and levels, which require you to go through so much shit to get through the level.

Take a look at Sonic 3. The final zone was not hard as hell, it was fun to play with some difficulty. Sonic 1's scrap brain was lackluster, but still not as hard as this. Sonic 2? I loved Sky Chase and Death Egg.

This sudden difficulty spike in the THIRD ACT OF THE GAME is very unjustified and it's one of the only times where I've felt like putting a game down.

Last edited by Rex The Kitsune; 03-31-2014 at 07:41 PM.
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