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Old 04-11-2014   #4061
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Simply put, Metal Sonic--the way Blade has him done, that is--seems like he'd be absolutely perfect for speedrunning. I don't know if that alone is a good enough reason to add someone like him though.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4062
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Originally Posted by Neo Chaotikal View Post
Apples and oranges, friend. ...rotating flats is just a basic part of the renderer.
True. But, IIRC from the Doom wiki, sprite-drawing and wall-drawing use very similar functions, correct? Thus the same column-based graphics format and whatnot? The possibility for texture scaling is there, if that that is true, even if wading through the code makes it impractical (in which case I will not push for it).

Also, 2nding Metal Sonic as an unlockable, for the speedrunning reason and because it'd be fun to have a "different" Sonic built-in to try the levels with/collect emblems with/etc. Plus, why would a "meaning" reason be necessary? Super Sonic breaks the levels; he has negative meaning except for "staying with the classics."
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Old 04-11-2014   #4063
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Super Sonic you get only after collecting all the emeralds, which of course takes effort!

Besides which, we'd have to code in the special effects for Metal Sonic even if we did include him - we can't have Lua scripting used in vanilla SRB2, it has to be all hardcoded.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4064
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Super Sonic's "meaning" is to function as a reward for collecting all the emeralds as Sonic, the hardest character in the game to use.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4065
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But that's not "meaning" in the way Mystic meant it. With that definition, Metal Sonic's "meaning" would be the same as any reward for effort. Mystic said that all the game's characters had a "meaning" as in they could do different things in the levels--

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While I don't object to the concept of adding unlockable characters, the problem is that they need to have a real purpose instead of just being there for the sake of being there. I've been trying to get more differentiation between Tails and Knuckles in SRB2, and adding in a fourth character would make giving them all a purpose even harder.
Alright, I said "meaning" instead of "purpose," sorry. But the difference is superficial in this context.

Super Sonic breaks the levels in many ways, due to his speed, jump, and floating. He exists as a reward only because of the classic games--other than that he has no "purpose" or "meaning," at least that I can see. The argument for Metal Sonic is the same way--simply a reward for the player's hard work that changes the way the levels feel. As Super Sonic has no special things in the levels, neither would Metal.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4066
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
While I don't object to the concept of adding unlockable characters, the problem is that they need to have a real purpose instead of just being there for the sake of being there. I've been trying to get more differentiation between Tails and Knuckles in SRB2, and adding in a fourth character would make giving them all a purpose even harder.
Not everything has to have a purpose. Sometimes you can add something to a game just because it's fun.

EDIT: But if I had to expand on this, I'd say a good purpose is to give the player a decent reward for emblem collection. You're now asking players to collect 160 of these things and still have just about bupkis in terms of compensation.

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But, IIRC from the Doom wiki, sprite-drawing and wall-drawing use very similar functions, correct? Thus the same column-based graphics format and whatnot? The possibility for texture scaling is there, if that that is true, even if wading through the code makes it impractical (in which case I will not push for it).
Sprites are two-dimensional images which get scaled two-dimensionally without any particular transformations. Texture drawing, on the other hand, has to skew and distort the textures in order to conform to perspective. I won't pretend I know anything about the implementation of these things, but I can tell that flat rotation and sprite scaling are basically things that already existed in the original rendering code, while arbitrarily scaling textures on a wall sounds like it would take a lot more elbow grease.

Last edited by Fred; 04-11-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4067
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I'll be forced to make a "Real" tutorial level, and you'll see why new players need it. My brother just losed all my 63 lives (SEEMED REALLY HILARIOUS SINCE THAT SAVED GAME IS JUST A BACKUP OF MY 30 ALREADY PLAYED SLOTS) with tails in GFZ2 because he just didn't knew what to do with shields, or how to use controls or all that stuff that isn't explained even in the configurations menu.
Developers just think of their abilitys of psychokinesis to read magically the description of every object or obstacle of every maps of the srb2 very existance. And the most surprising of all is that I don't even know if they care for these suggestions or they are just to busy to read or suggestions, I ended modifing the texture errors of ACZ all myself (Since there are plenty), and I ended fixing most of the misplacement of some objects in ERZ, RVZ and CEZ. It was a heck of a work.
No offense to anyone, but Srb2 Devs are making REALLY low progress.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4068
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The issue is that speedrunning is just one application among many that he'd need to have a different approach to. Right now, we have three characters, with two clear "classes". Sonic approaches the stages like an obstacle course. His lack of vertical mobility forces him to take the standard approach to platforming and value items like the Whirlwind Shield that provide him extra platforming maneuverability. Tails and Knuckles both ignore many obstacles in the game, allowing them to explore to their heart's content. Since they're both so similar, it's important to provide something to differentiate them, which is why I'm so strongly in favor of providing as much Knuckles-specific content as possible, as it makes Tails and Knuckles feel very different despite having very similar abilities. This isn't even counting the applications of the different characters in match and CTF. It's important for any potential addition to have relevant gameplay in each mode, but it's even MORE important that they have DIFFERENT relevant gameplay. That's where Metal Sonic falls apart, as his gameplay is essentially the same as Sonic's.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4069
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Originally Posted by VirtualBlitz546 View Post
I'll be forced to make a "Real" tutorial level, and you'll see why new players need it. My brother just losed all my 63 lives (SEEMED REALLY HILARIOUS SINCE THAT SAVED GAME IS JUST A BACKUP OF MY 30 ALREADY PLAYED SLOTS) with tails in GFZ2 because he just didn't knew what to do with shields, or how to use controls or all that stuff that isn't explained even in the configurations menu.
I have one single question for you: How many games from the 1990s feature tutorial levels? I'm pretty sure that because of the fact that SRB2 is based on a lot of older Sonic games, there's no such thing as a "tutorial level". Frankly, the game is all about learning how the mechanics work (Rise of the Triad remake from 2013 comes to mind), not having your hand be held by the game (About 75% of all of the triple-A titles would pop up here).
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Developers just think of their abilitys of psychokinesis to read magically the description of every object or obstacle of every maps of the srb2 very existance. And the most surprising of all is that I don't even know if they care for these suggestions or they are just to busy to read or suggestions, I ended modifing the texture errors of ACZ all myself (Since there are plenty), and I ended fixing most of the misplacement of some objects in ERZ, RVZ and CEZ. It was a heck of a work.
No offense to anyone, but Srb2 Devs are making REALLY low progress.
...way to whine about something that's been in progress since 1999 (1998?). If you want something complete, go play something else, please.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4070
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Originally Posted by VirtualBlitz546 View Post
I'll be forced to make a "Real" tutorial level, and you'll see why new players need it. My brother just losed all my 63 lives (SEEMED REALLY HILARIOUS SINCE THAT SAVED GAME IS JUST A BACKUP OF MY 30 ALREADY PLAYED SLOTS) with tails in GFZ2 because he just didn't knew what to do with shields, or how to use controls or all that stuff that isn't explained even in the configurations menu.
How the fuck do you even die in GFZ2
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Old 04-11-2014   #4071
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Does that level even have badniks?
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Old 04-11-2014   #4072
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I have one single question for you: How many games from the 1990s feature tutorial levels? I'm pretty sure that because of the fact that SRB2 is based on a lot of older Sonic games, there's no such thing as a "tutorial level". Frankly, the game is all about learning how the mechanics work (Rise of the Triad remake from 2013 comes to mind), not having your hand be held by the game (About 75% of all of the triple-A titles would pop up here).
From what I remember, I think Sonic advanced or Sonic CD. But a noob could just encounter a death pit and just fall into it because a tutorial stage wasn't present to show to him how to jump to pass over the death pit. Sure 90s games didn't needed tutorials AT ALL because they were in "Videogames consoles" like the Sega Genesis or GameBoy, but Srb2 is a PC platform game (OMG remember we have a keyboard with more than 84 buttons to press in front of us), and somehow we need to know the specific use of the objects we encounter ingame and need to know how to control the character before running to a hazards hell.

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...way to whine about something that's been in progress since 1999 (1998?). If you want something complete, go play something else, please.
I don't really know why I just said that, but I was once a part of a Sonic's game team, we did alot of work but some of the team, incluiding me got tired, i started to make really low progress and in the end I just quit the team to look for something else to do.

Last edited by VirtualBlitz546; 04-11-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4073
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Yes. All SP levels have badniks.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4074
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We assume that players are familiar with the core concepts of Sonic the Hedgehog games and are also familiar with how to read English and therefore operate the menus to configure their controls. We also assume that the player is capable of observing behaviors in the game environment and learning from their mistakes. The only gameplay mechanics I don't think are telegraphed well enough at this point are shield activated abilities and that you can use the spindash to "duck" under hazards.

Last edited by Mystic; 04-11-2014 at 10:38 PM. Reason: stupid grammar error
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Old 04-11-2014   #4075
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Originally Posted by Trolo Bobo View Post
I got 1 more good suggestion:

A real tutorial level. We all know that GFZ1 tries to act like a tutorial stage but it's not that good. The level can be accesed from the single player menu, between start game and record attack and it should be called "tutorial level". After you select the character, you are instantly spawn to a short level with diffrent textures and explains to the player how to use things such as shields, tokens, slime, avoiding lava and bottomless pits, etc.
Explaining all the mechanics of the game to the player through text is not elegant game design, and it's not something SRB2 needs. Visual and audio feedback mechanics are the fastest and least obtrusive way to help the player understand most elements in the game. See Sequelitis.

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While I don't object to the concept of adding unlockable characters, the problem is that they need to have a real purpose instead of just being there for the sake of being there. I've been trying to get more differentiation between Tails and Knuckles in SRB2, and adding in a fourth character would make giving them all a purpose even harder.
I think the main idea is that the fourth character should be a reward for doing well in the single player campaign, and provide a different class role in multiplayer. I could think of a few characters that would serve both purposes in different ways.

Metal Sonic's an obvious one, and would probably fit in well if he was designed around a blend of agility and accessibility, relying on SRB2's basic momentum physics with extra perks to keep him rewarding with skilled use. What you could do is design him around low acceleration and high top speed, but no thok like Sonic so as to encourage the player to always maintain momentum. Run-on-water could further reward staying at top speed, and that in addition to a greater jump height could give him a balanced map accessibility.

Amy could easily be turned into something interesting, as we already have a model to work from with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance. In single player, her hammer could be used to bust Knuckles walls and wall climb. In multiplayer, she could function as a melee class, with her hammer dealing a high amount of knockback to make it easier to steal weapon panels and CC enemies.

Egg Robo or something similar could be interesting with the possibility of unlimited flight. The obvious downside would have to be the lack of speed, and I don't know how well it would mesh into single player given the character would more than likely be reliant on ringslinger.

The primary differentiation between characters has always been one involving movement. Anyone that can distinguish themselves this way from the vanilla trio has a good chance of being a healthy addition to the roster.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4076
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Look guys, I know you don't wanna over do it, And I don't curse much here, but...
WHY THE HELL IS IT THAT:

YELLOW DOES NOT USE ALL THE DAMN SHADES OF YELLOW?
Hell, olive doesn't even use half, and black should use 16 even IF it uses the darker part of... what, 32 hue-less values? Are you serious ಠ_ಠ?
The whole palette:

are you FUCKING kidding me!?!?

Last edited by Phil the hegi; 04-11-2014 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Mistook colors for values for a sec.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4077
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Originally Posted by Blue Warrior View Post
...
Amy could easily be turned into something interesting, as we already have a model to work from with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance. In single player, her hammer could be used to bust Knuckles walls and wall climb. In multiplayer, she could function as a melee class, with her hammer dealing a high amount of knockback to make it easier to steal weapon panels and CC enemies.
...
I second this. Chrispy's Rosy had a good model going as well, and if you hard-code her, she'd have a lot more options. She could have the triple jump Amy had in JTE, and you could set her hammer actions to spindash(Pressing spin just swings the hammer, pressing spin and then jump before the animation finishes makes her hammer-jump the way Rosy already does). This gives her quick exploration access and combat capability as well.
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Last edited by Puppyfaic; 04-11-2014 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 04-11-2014   #4078
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Originally Posted by Kirblord23 View Post
I second this. Chrispy's Rosy had a good model going as well, and if you hard-code her, she'd have a lot more options. She could have the triple jump Amy had in JTE, and you could set her hammer actions to spindash(Pressing spin just swings the hammer, pressing spin and then jump before the animation finishes makes her hammer-jump the way Rosy already does). This gives her quick exploration access and combat capability as well.
I third this. Also, We should add more characters than just Rosy to the game, because WHY THE HELL NOT? (Except for the filesize. Gotta be careful with that quirky MoFo.)

Last edited by Phil the hegi; 04-11-2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason: Oh god, kill me now. My alphabetical-casing sucks.
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Old 04-12-2014   #4079
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Run-on-water could further reward staying at top speed
I agree with all your other points, but holy shit no it would not, and I don't understand how people keep advocating running on water at all. The only thing that would happen is that it would force you to slow down whenever you want to dive into a body of water, thus plummeting you right back into the slow acceleration state you were striving to avoid. Stages like DSZ would play like complete ass.

And to the Rosy the Rascal crew: I thought the point was to make good use of Blade's existing sprites by reusing them as a single player character. Maybe I missed the point. But what I'm certain is that an unlockable Amy would make absolutely no sense from a sales pitch point of view or a game design point of view. I'm pretty sure Amy has never been a part of TUDD in any way nor would it make any sense to randomly unlock such a mundane character as a reward for beating the game.
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Old 04-12-2014   #4080
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Making use of existing sprites was part of my pitch to begin with.

If we're delving into the area of MP-only characters, the aforementioned Metal Sonic could work. But Katmint's Eggman would be a great choice- it's a lot of fun to play as and play against in netgames. It has it's own advantages and disadvantages. I can't think of a third character other than Amy who'd fit the classic motif of the SRB2, and it's a bit hard to find something to make her unique.
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